Hornby 2023 Speculation?

[The Stationmaster]

11 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I think it was about the actual distance from Paddington to Cadiff done non stop in four days. It may have been when the Cardiff Castle model was introduced.

I think it was done with the Ringfield motor version.

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think it was done with the Ringfield motor version.

Correct Mike. It was a Cardiff Castle with six coaches on a 6x4 roundy housed in a sealed cabinet in the Meccano showroom in London. It did 46000 laps equating to about 153 miles at a scale speed of 123 mph. It was reported in the Meccano Magazine in November 1960 and I think also featured on Blue Peter.

I dont know if the link will work, will post other details of how to find it if not successful.

http://www.nzmeccano.com/MMviewer.php

 

If unsuccessful go to http://www.nzmeccano.com/ click on the Magazine tab, go to November 1960, page 564.

Edited December 17, 2022 by TheSignalEngineer

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Correct Mike. It was a Cardiff Castle with six coaches on a 6x4 roundy housed in a sealed cabinet in the Meccano showroom in London. It did 46000 laps equating to about 153 miles at a scale speed of 123 mph. It was reported in the Meccano Magazine in November 1960 and I think also featured on Blue Peter.

I dont know if the link will work, will post other details of how to find it if not successful.

http://www.nzmeccano.com/MMviewer.php

Wasn't "Bristol Castle" the pre-Ringfield version of the 2-rail model?

 

I remember getting one down out of a friends loft before he moved house some years ago. It had been up there two or three decades so we whipped the body off, ran a hoover over it, and put a couple drops of oil on the gears. On the track, it stuttered a bit for a couple of feet, then ran like it had never been away! TTBOMK, it still does. 

 

John 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Hroth]

Also, have a look in old Guinness Books of Record.  Up to the early 70s they still listed it as a "record". It's probably not considered important nowadays!

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Wasn't "Bristol Castle" the pre-Ringfield version of the 2-rail model?

 

I remember getting one down out of a friends loft before he moved house some years ago. It had been up there two or three decades so we whipped the body off, ran a hoover over it, and put a couple drops of oil on the gears. On the track, it stuttered a bit for a couple of feet, then ran like it had never been away!   

 

John 

Bristol Castle was the original 3-rail version, followed by Ludlow Castle.

Denbigh Castle was the original motor 2-rail version followed by Cardiff Castle for the ringfield version.

There is an error in the Hammond book text which says Denbigh was the ring field version, but the catalogue numbers in the table are correct for the 1/2" motor.

 

My Bristol Castle and Ludlow Castle owned from new still run perfectly.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Going off topic, the Blue Peter layout was run by the original presenter Christpher Trace. It was said that he got the job because he shared an interest in model railways with the show's creator and first producer John Hunter Blair.

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Hornby might produce 'Bristol Castle' as a Hornby Dublo locomotive as it is the 65th anniversary of when it was first made.

Announce it now and it may be ready for the 75th anniversary.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 16/12/2022 at 15:22, Watto1990 said:

Someone must have Locomotion No. 1 in the works for the bicentenary but my gut feeling is the 2023 catalogue is a little early to be announcing that.

Not if Hornby are producing it.

[D9020 Nimbus]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I see little plain black LNER 0-6-0’s as being on a hiding to nothing personally.

For any manufacturer. 

 

People buy one of each.

They live in bargain bins for years afterwards.

In a later part, you rant on about 0-6-0s from "the far north east". The only LNER 0-6-0 that has sat around in bargain bins is the J15—a GER loco—unless you consider Norfolk is the "far north east". IMHO the problem with the J15 is that too many liveries were introduced in too short a time.

 

It's not even clear what you mean by "the far north-east". North-east Scotland? The GNoSR didn't have any 0-6-0s at all. Neither the NBR J36 or the NER J27—the only NER tender loco of any wheel arrangement ever made RTR in OO—have sat around In bargain bins. The J26 may not be such a wise choice as all were allocated to just one depot (Newport [Middlesbrough]). I'd have liked to see a J21, the only NER 0-6-0 to appear regularly on passenger trains, and there is a "preserved" example (though it doesn't appear well cared for).

 

The LYR 2-4-2T seems to have sat around in quite a few bargain bins itself. I don't think many LNWR locos are likely candidates — very few survived into the BR era. Manufacturers are generally looking for something that survived into later BR livery, that can carry lots of different liveries, especially colourful ones (and LYR and LNWR locos were all black, even the passenger ones). Railways where a lot of locos were rebuilt (e.g. LSWR) would also be unlikely choices. Surely the SECR is popular because of the livery? And Bachmann produced the J72 in NER green, a livery it almost certainly never carried…

 

Given the tone of your rant, am I correct in assuming you come from NW England? You obviously don’t come from the north-east.

 

P.S. I do come from the north-east.

P.P.S. The only pre-1923 Railway I'm interested in modelling is the only one for which there is a good choice of locos and stock in N gauge, and has been for some years. Yes, such a line exists …

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Bristol Castle was the original 3-rail version, followed by Ludlow Castle.

Denbigh Castle was the original motor 2-rail version followed by Cardiff Castle for the ringfield version.

There is an error in the Hammond book text which says Denbigh was the ring field version, but the catalogue numbers in the table are correct for the 1/2" motor.

 

My Bristol Castle and Ludlow Castle owned from new still run perfectly.

 

My mate's must be a 3-rail body on a 2-rail chassis, then. 

[VIA185]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think it was done with the Ringfield motor version.

It was. And then they pulled a schoolboy with that awful Deltic. (CJL)

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

In a later part, you rant on about 0-6-0s from "the far north east". The only LNER 0-6-0 that has sat around in bargain bins is the J15—a GER loco—unless you consider Norfolk is the "far north east". IMHO the problem with the J15 is that too many liveries were introduced in too short a time.

 

How many liveries of J15 has Hornby made ?

All the ones Ive seen are black.

 

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

It's not even clear what you mean by "the far north-east". North-east Scotland? The GNoSR didn't have any 0-6-0s at all. Neither the NBR J36 or the NER J27—the only NER tender loco of any wheel arrangement ever made RTR in OO—have sat around In bargain bins. The J26 may not be such a wise choice as all were allocated to just one depot (Newport [Middlesbrough]). I'd have liked to see a J21, the only NER 0-6-0 to appear regularly on passenger trains, and there is a "preserved" example (though it doesn't appear well cared for).

 

its all east of Euston to me, and covers very few pages in the preservation stock books.

LNER certainly has its followers and is very well catered for.

But LNER also stands out by the sheer volume of “J” classes it inherited.

As long as theres enough followers to make everyone viable then who am I to get in the way.

However when I read the dozen or so weekly emails from model shops the same likely lads are in every advert, every week for eternity in the bargain trays… to me theres a message to read there… 

(and I repeat its not just Hornby’s black 0-6-0’s in the email).

I think black 0-6-0’s are reaching an end, for every railway company.

 

I could have suggested a Furness Railway 0-6-0 or a Midland 58xxx but they are simply too niche imo. 

 

 

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

The LYR 2-4-2T seems to have sat around in quite a few bargain bins itself. I don't think many LNWR locos are likely candidates — very few survived into the BR era. Manufacturers are generally looking for something that survived into later BR livery, that can carry lots of different liveries, especially colourful ones (and LYR and LNWR locos were all black, even the passenger ones). Railways where a lot of locos were rebuilt (e.g. LSWR) would also be unlikely choices. Surely the SECR is popular because of the livery? And Bachmann produced the J72 in NER green, a livery it almost certainly never carried…

 

paint sells in my opinion.

It maybe wholly unrealistic for modellers, and they should have a layout consisting of 15 plain black J27’s… but I bet they dont…

 

I bet if Hornby had turned out a Claud in BR Green as per royal train duties at the same time as lined black it would have done well. (Too expensive imo now).

 

As most post 1948 steam types are done, I think a brighter future of a more colourful age has a strong appeal, but it does mean disproportionately more colourful passenger types, than black 0-6-0 goods types… the problem is many of those colourful types didnt survive… but thats what makes it interesting and imo viable in model form… I think a GNR A1 would sell too… W1 /P2 shows it doesnt have to exist to be popular.

 

simply because paint sells.

 

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

Given the tone of your rant, am I correct in assuming you come from NW England? You obviously don’t come from the north-east.

 

1. rant - no, passion, yes.
 

I live in that part of Lancashire called Surrey on that lesser known LYR Southern Extension towards Portmouth, big fan of the NYMR, am a bit agnostic of the ELR.

😀

 

I too have a lot of “J” 0-6-0’s but I for most I don't really need more than 1 and I think bar a J69 i’m probably done… I saw the J52 popped up in the survey this year, but as I skipped the new J72.. the old ones probably fine as the price will at this point disengage my interest… possibly raising when it reaches the bargain bins.

 

LYR/LNWR is a definite bias, its colourful, geographically well spread but it feels like it disappeared wholly from history making whats left intriguing. I too find GNR / NER interesting and some of the passenger prototypes, especially NER 4-4-0 1621 is a surely must model prototype at some point waiting to be done.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

P.S. I do come from the north-east.

P.P.S. The only pre-1923 Railway I'm interested in modelling is the only one for which there is a good choice of locos and stock in N gauge, and has been for some years. Yes, such a line exists …

Enjoy, if its 00 then you've got everything you need, at Bargain prices.

you might even be able to buy them on amazon as “subscribe and save”.

The hobby is a broad church of interests, but I think everyone goes a bit gooey at the knees when they see a colourful prototype perfectly well depicted, even if its totally outside their chosen era… and in business its that, that sells.

 

I think one of the most important things missing off the 2023 wish list poll is price. The days of £100 locos are way behind us. The day of a £300 DC ready loco has already been crossed. At what point do modellers say I want it but not at that price ? - that to me is more important than the wishlist itself.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by adb968008

[Mark Dickerson]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I think black 0-6-0’s are reaching an end, for every railway company.

 

I could have suggested a Furness Railway 0-6-0 or a Midland 58xxx but they are simply too niche imo.

Not entirely against this, I'm a little surprised to see the latter never appears to be something that people crave, but with its lineage variants and liveries is it really niche? I've assumed that the 2F just hasn't appeared because of a duplication Cold War. 🤔

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, blueeighties said:

Why? They have lost the market now.

I cant see them giving them up, theyve been popular for decades.

But making them cheaper to produce by simplifying it might improve their economics.

 

A real odd ball might be dumping the detailed chassis, simplifying  the body and going railroad on the class 50 to compete by price.

 

The 50 tooling cant owe them much at this point its been well used, but the 66 shows decent paint on a lower quality model sells… same to for bringing back a railroad 56…

 

they might just continue as is, and go aggressive on price… all those toolings must be well covered by now, Hornby is still Hornby.

 

For modern image, unless its units its all going to be duplication from here on, so manufacturers are going to need to hustle each other.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

My mate's must be a 3-rail body on a 2-rail chassis, then. 

Model shops would arrange swaps for regular customers as would modellers do themselves. There's a Bristol Castle body on 2-rail chassis on Ebay at the moment.

[ThaneofFife]

on D&E I see them being reactive now rather than proactive.   can you really see them launching say a new AC bo-bo electric of the standard set by Bachmann with their 90 or Heljan and their Class 86?  I dont see the will tp ush the envelope like they used to.....the heyday of their detailed 31,56, 60 and HST see so long ago now.

[toboldlygo]

Modified Merchant Navy class with 5.000gl & 5,250gl tenders.

 

New Tool 8F

 

And something that will undoubtably upset RMWebber's and other manufacturers/shops and have the Mods and Andy Y pulling their hair(?) out

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, toboldlygo said:

 

And something that will undoubtably upset RMWebber's and other manufacturers/shops and have the Mods and Andy Y pulling their hair(?) out

Something like minic motorways or ships ?

Edited December 17, 2022 by adb968008

[Les1952]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right - there are only two British pacific classes they haven't touched at all - the GWR and NER versions - both Pre-group so fitting that theme but if they bother I think they'll most likely do the NER version for livery appeal.   But the most likely pacific is a Rebuilt MN re-tool in my opinion.

 

 

THREE Pacific classes.  The A1/1 rebuilt Great Northern hasn't been done.

 

Les

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I could have suggested a Furness Railway 0-6-0 or a Midland 58xxx but they are simply too niche imo. 

The main reason I see for no-one having grappled with the Midland 58xxx series is the sheer number of variations. They lasted from the mid 1870s until almost the end of steam and wandered from London to Leeds and Gloucester to Sheffield on the Midland lines, the LNWR in the West Midlands and Barrow in Furness. 

[The Black Hat]

5 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

In a later part, you rant on about 0-6-0s from "the far north east". The only LNER 0-6-0 that has sat around in bargain bins is the J15—a GER loco—unless you consider Norfolk is the "far north east". IMHO the problem with the J15 is that too many liveries were introduced in too short a time.

 

It's not even clear what you mean by "the far north-east". North-east Scotland? The GNoSR didn't have any 0-6-0s at all. Neither the NBR J36 or the NER J27—the only NER tender loco of any wheel arrangement ever made RTR in OO—have sat around In bargain bins. The J26 may not be such a wise choice as all were allocated to just one depot (Newport [Middlesbrough]). I'd have liked to see a J21, the only NER 0-6-0 to appear regularly on passenger trains, and there is a "preserved" example (though it doesn't appear well cared for).

 

The LYR 2-4-2T seems to have sat around in quite a few bargain bins itself. I don't think many LNWR locos are likely candidates — very few survived into the BR era. Manufacturers are generally looking for something that survived into later BR livery, that can carry lots of different liveries, especially colourful ones (and LYR and LNWR locos were all black, even the passenger ones). Railways where a lot of locos were rebuilt (e.g. LSWR) would also be unlikely choices. Surely the SECR is popular because of the livery? And Bachmann produced the J72 in NER green, a livery it almost certainly never carried…

 

Given the tone of your rant, am I correct in assuming you come from NW England? You obviously don’t come from the north-east.

 

P.S. I do come from the north-east.

P.P.S. The only pre-1923 Railway I'm interested in modelling is the only one for which there is a good choice of locos and stock in N gauge, and has been for some years. Yes, such a line exists …

Agreeing with you through most of this. The problem with 0-6-0s is that (as usual) companies have been going around picking the wrong ones. J14 was just a token gesture as Hornby looked to sew up the GE area and wanted it all for themselves. Problem is that with doing the Brit, L1, D16, etc you just need the one J14/J15 for the collection. Bachmann tried to be clever with the J11, expect GC polls poorly and by going down the middle thought that it would pick up Midland and Eastern demand. Not quite... Again your Southen classes such as C class wont sell in great number as people want them as a token amongst all the other stuff. 

Oxford made an effort with the J27 to start their range of North Eastern stuff. Its a nice attempt and one thats going to get repeat sales as the choice is good. You dont just run one J27... Grouping designs have been ok. The midland 4F, Deans goods, and the J39 have been done, although retool and DCC gubbins would be welcome for the lot. The Southern Q class would be a nice addition, if useless for me. 

Instead, what you want a popular engines that worked in numbers and where youd need more than one because the class was that frequent for real. J21 stands clearly above the rest out there as the classic waiting to be done. J25 would be another, and both these tap GE and Western region areas respectively. Another Scottish such as Maude would be another one that would sell well. So its not that 0-6-0s dont sell... its just the companies have been picking the wrong ones.... 

[The Black Hat]

My predictions: 

Retool Merchant Navy
Retool 8F

Rework of the HST, with power cars and stock using the Oxford Rail plans for Mk. 3. 

Class 50s done in Network South East, H+H, Intercity
Class 31 done in CE, EWS, Intercity
HST - GNER, Midland Mainline mid blue and grey, Grand Central with orange stripe
More 21T hoppers
possible class 110
churning out Pullman stock
 

Edited December 19, 2022 by The Black Hat

[Hilux5972]

32 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

HST upgrade with new teaks to tooling - such as change to coupling.

 

What, you mean like they did this year??

[The Black Hat]

11 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

What, you mean like they did this year??

yeah but not all of them have come out with it. So will see what they have. 

[1andrew1]

7 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Correct Mike. It was a Cardiff Castle with six coaches on a 6x4 roundy housed in a sealed cabinet in the Meccano showroom in London. It did 46000 laps equating to about 153 miles at a scale speed of 123 mph. It was reported in the Meccano Magazine in November 1960 and I think also featured on Blue Peter.

I dont know if the link will work, will post other details of how to find it if not successful.

http://www.nzmeccano.com/MMviewer.php

 

If unsuccessful go to http://www.nzmeccano.com/ click on the Magazine tab, go to November 1960, page 564.

I seem to remember that Airfix did something similar with their Castle in the early days of their railway system.