Aire Head Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 I'm currently looking for images of LMS D1832A Vans. I have checked the usual places (LMS Wagons Illustrated/HMRS/Paul Bartletts) however I ideally need to gather as many as possible. I'm looking for any liveries including internal user. Any help would be greatly appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Sitham Yard Posted December 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 13, 2022 On 12/12/2022 at 10:07, Aire Head said: I'm currently looking for images of LMS D1832A Vans. I have checked the usual places (LMS Wagons Illustrated/HMRS/Paul Bartletts) however I ideally need to gather as many as possible. I'm looking for any liveries including internal user. Any help would be greatly appreciated The Acquired Wagons of British Railways Volume 4 by David Larkin has 3 photos, M283328 & M151368 unfitted M215380 fitted. States "previously published information does not quite match later research" and that different lots were unfitted, Vacuum-piped and vacuum braked. The photo of M283328 is by the late Don Rowland and a larger reproduction appears in his book Twilight of the Goods. Both books recommended. Andrew 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2022 What's the difference between D1832 & D1832A? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonnieS Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 Try and get a copy of this book. ) One on the cover (top) and 1 inside 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted December 13, 2022 Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 2 hours ago, kevinlms said: What's the difference between D1832 & D1832A? I don't know except to say they are all listed as D1832A in the diagram book. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
41516 Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 One I remember - Copyright holder on Flickr says "do not share elsewhere" so here's a link c.08/1963 - Dairycoates East, Hull, East Yorkshire. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted December 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2022 20 minutes ago, 41516 said: One I remember - Copyright holder on Flickr says "do not share elsewhere" so here's a link c.08/1963 - Dairycoates East, Hull, East Yorkshire. And both other vans in the picture to LMS designs. @Aire Head if you're doing what I think you're doing (preparing a submission to Rapido) then all the best with your endeavours! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Aire Head said: I don't know except to say they are all listed as D1832A in the diagram book. OK, looking at LMS Wagons Volume 1, there was probably no such thing as D1832. Really strange as generally the LMS issued new drawings for relatively minor changes, but apparently built unfitted & fitted to the same diagram no. D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends. 156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery. The photo referred to by Flying Pig, has vents on the left one, but the right hand one isn't clear, so could be a D1663? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 ..... though absence of roof vents in BR days doesn't mean the LMS didn't put them on originally, of course ! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
41516 Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 Do you want good pictures of clear prototypes, or 'mood' pictures? Having a look through screenshots I've collated. This first one is good for those 'what colour grey' questions... Video link 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted December 13, 2022 Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 2 hours ago, 41516 said: Do you want good pictures of clear prototypes, or 'mood' pictures? Ideally clear pictures but "mood" pictures like this are good for colour reference! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted December 14, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 14, 2022 17 hours ago, Wickham Green too said: ..... though absence of roof vents in BR days doesn't mean the LMS didn't put them on originally, of course ! Indeed, but history has proven that just because you find a works drawing, doesn't prove ANY were actually built like it! A dated photo is the only way of finding out what it looked like - even then the date can be wrong! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barclay Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 17 hours ago, kevinlms said: OK, looking at LMS Wagons Volume 1, there was probably no such thing as D1832. Really strange as generally the LMS issued new drawings for relatively minor changes, but apparently built unfitted & fitted to the same diagram no. D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends. 156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery. The photo referred to by Flying Pig, has vents on the left one, but the right hand one isn't clear, so could be a D1663? It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Sitham Yard Posted December 14, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 14, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, kevinlms said: D1663, were an earlier version, the difference being, no roof vents or at the ends. 156079, is listed as sample numbers as both D1663 and D1832A, but photo shown of 156079 does have roof vents - so it's a D1832A and a mistake by the late Bob Essery. The key difference appears to be that D1832A had end vents but D1663 did not. 55 minutes ago, Barclay said: It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information. Agreed. There are other examples notably in the books LMS Wagon Drawings No1 and No.2, published much later, where the information published previously has been amended. Andrew Edited December 14, 2022 by Sitham Yard Typo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 55 minutes ago, Barclay said: ... though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information. ... and, with all due respect, the late Mr.Essery was only human and no more immune to errors than the rest of us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 26 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: ... and, with all due respect, the late Mr.Essery was only human and no more immune to errors than the rest of us. I have seen some evidence which suggests that he was surprisingly prone to being told "tales", which he then went on to present as verbatim truth to others, even in circumstances where he should very definitely have "smelt a rat". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
41516 Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 2 hours ago, kevinlms said: A dated photo is the only way of finding out what it looked like - even then the date can be wrong! And even then in your typical 'in use' picture you'll be able to see a maximum of 2 or 3 of the following: Roof vents Vacuum pipes Vacuum cylinder 2 or 4 shoe brakes Tie bars Number It's good fun, innit? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted December 14, 2022 Share Posted December 14, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Barclay said: It's interesting as the earlier book 'The LMS Wagon' refers only to D1832, and the later book you reference refers only to D1832A. The truth of it therefore seems as hazy as ever, though you might think that the more recent book represents Mr. E's most up to date information. There is a photo in Essery LMS wagons of 203975 with a different door catch without the horizontal handle, all other photos I have seen have the D1663 style catch. Could this be the reason for D1832/D1832A. Edited December 14, 2022 by markw 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted December 14, 2022 Author Share Posted December 14, 2022 55 minutes ago, markw said: Could this be the reason for D1832/D1832A. It certainly could be. The LMS was very funny about what would constitute a change of diagram Type of brake fitted - No Thickness of Planks used - Yes As sad earlier it adds to the fun! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 (edited) On 15/12/2022 at 03:57, Aire Head said: It certainly could be. The LMS was very funny about what would constitute a change of diagram Type of brake fitted - No Thickness of Planks used - Yes As sad earlier it adds to the fun! Diagrams were for the use of people who wanted a wagon to load. Even in BR times whether vacuum brake or unfitted appears to have been ignored, at least for the first decade. Difficult to understand now why this would be as this difference would appear important when operating a train. Now the thickness of sheeting affects the internal dimensions and it appears that 1/16th of an inch could make all the difference 🙂 Paul Edited December 17, 2022 by hmrspaul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted December 17, 2022 Author Share Posted December 17, 2022 26 minutes ago, hmrspaul said: appears that 1/16th of an inch could make all the difference I've been saying that to the Mrs for years. 1 hour ago, hmrspaul said: Diagrams were for the use of people who wanted a wagon to load. That's very insightful thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 One published source - named above - suggested that the presence or absence of curb rails on a batch of open wagons justified inclusion in a certain Diagram .... while ignoring the difference in door width which would put in the Diagram that official sources said they should be in ! 🙄 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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