Southern Carriage Set 399, ratio of Brake to passengers

[johnofwessex]

I am just putting together a Set 399 from the Hornby models.

 

3 coaches, a composite& two 3rd brakes.

 

Now I see that the Board of Trade required a brake at the end of every passenger train and that there was a lot of parcels/luggage carried in the past but even so it seems that you have the equivalent of 1 out of 3 vehicles in the set is a brake.

 

Did they in fact need this level of provision?

 

If not why not do what was done with one of the MK1 brake designs like the MK1 BSO to diagram 183 at Midsomer Norton, W9267 which has a smaller brake compartment so you have 5 seating bays/compartments instead of 4 or other Maunsell design's that had 6 compartments

 

[zarniwhoop]

In the days when most people used trains to go on holiday, many holiday trains carried a lot of luggage (or, apparently, luggage in advance) and the brakes were also used for parcels and animals. As you note, some Maunsell 3 sets had 4 compartment brakes, others had 6 - in part it probably depended on the expected traffic for which the carriages were built.

[SRman]

Also to be noted was the requirement for the guard to travel at, or very near to, the trailing end of the train. Not quite such a problem with 3-car sets, as the operating provisions allowed for up to two 'loose' coaches to be attached after the brake coach, but for longer sets there was definitely a need for brake coaches close to each end of the set to meet the legal obligations.

I can't remember for sure, but it was somewhere in the later 1970s or thereabouts that it was no longer deemed necessary to have a brake at each end, and a brake coach could be positioned almost anywhere within a rake of coaches. By that time, the SR's fixed sets were long gone anyway.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

... some Maunsell 3 sets had 4 compartment brakes, others had 6 - in part it probably depended on the expected traffic for which the carriages were built.

Yes, the 4-compartment brakes were never seen on the Eastern* or Central Divisions only on the long-distance holiday routes to the west ..... though some gravitated to the Somerset and Dorset where their passenger capacity was probably adequate.

 

* apart from eight-coach sets 467/8

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, SRman said:

I can't remember for sure, but it was somewhere in the later 1970s or thereabouts that it was no longer deemed necessary to have a brake at each end, and a brake coach could be positioned almost anywhere within a rake of coaches. By that time, the SR's fixed sets were long gone anyway.

 

It seems to have been c1968, and the fixed sets were re-marshalled to put a single brake second (mostly) in the middle.

 

Although neumbered fixed sets might have disappeared, the remaining southern sets were very much operated as sets, not remarshalled frequently, although the SW boat train formations were more flexible. There were effectively fixed rakes for the Oxted Lines peak services until they ceased at electrification, for instance, and there was at least one three-car set for Reading-Tonbridge well into the 1970s, possibly 1980s.

 

Regarding the need for van space in earlier days, I was always a bit curious about this, so started looking out for photos that happened to catch vans being loaded or unloaded. What comes across in 1930s pictures, and into the 1950s, is the sheer volume of "railway parcels", and when you look at what the SR did when they rebuilt stations you will see that they included generous parcel facilities, including goods lifts, sorting halls, loading bays etc. They had all of the business that we now associated with the likes of UPS, DHL etc, and they had the "last mile" collection/delivery van fleet to go with it. You can then add on top their contracts to carry Royal Mail letters and parcels, the huge business in distributing newspapers and magazines, passengers' luggage in advance, and accompanied dogs, bicycles, and perambulators (half fare), and it becomes apparent that two vans in a three car set was often necessary, rather than wasted space. They even hung 4W vans on the back for overflow on some routes.

[C126]

May I just add for the record, I remember racing along to Bristol from Brighton behind a '33' in the late-'80's, and the coach formation was a Mk II Brake-1st (Open?) in the middle of four Mk I BSKs.  Lovely.

[Oldddudders]

8 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

In the days when most people used trains to go on holiday, many holiday trains carried a lot of luggage (or, apparently, luggage in advance) and the brakes were also used for parcels and animals. As you note, some Maunsell 3 sets had 4 compartment brakes, others had 6 - in part it probably depended on the expected traffic for which the carriages were built.

As late as the early '60s, before we had a car, we would catch the ACE - or one portion of it on a Summer Saturday - from Waterloo to Port Isaac Road. But our trunk full of clothes etc had gone several days beforehand. Ditto on return. The service was flexibly priced, enabling the passenger to have it collected from home or not, delivered or not. 

 

As Nearholmer points out, the railway was a major parcels carrier until relatively recently. Many stations had a daily delivery service to their hinterland. When I joined BR in 1966, as well as selling tickets, I spent much of my day on the early shift 'sheeting' parcels, i.e sorting parcels that had arrived by train, listing sender and delivery address on a proforma sheet for the van driver to take out, deliver and obtain a signature. Mail-order catalogues were big business, and stations like Peterborough and Worcester must have been mega-busy with ordered goods being despatched by train. Even at our smaller station, a couple of local businesses were suppliers to the catalogues, and that same lorry would daily pick up large numbers of barrows and garden rollers to be sent all over the country. Brake vans could be full!

[Nearholmer]

That reminds me of a weird little firm at Paddock Wood which supplied zillions of those brown fibre flower pots and seed trays to Woolworths and several gardening catalogue companies. That traffic went by rail ntil quite late in the day.

[IWCR]

Not  all  SR  sets  had  a  brake  each  end,  some  smaller  sets  only  had  1.  There  were  a  number  of  2  coach  sets.

I  have  seen  an  SR  instruction  that  vehicles  not  exceeding   8  axles  in  total  could  be  coupled  behind  the  brake.

Hence  2  bogie  vehicles  or  up  to  4  4  wheel  vans.

 

Pete

 

[Wickham Green too]

46 minutes ago, IWCR said:

Not  all  SR  sets  had  a  brake  each  end,  ...

... and some which did have two didn't  have the van portion at the outer end. ( Hmm ... '8 axles behind the brake' - would that include the bogie under the passenger end ? )

[zarniwhoop]

11 hours ago, SRman said:

I can't remember for sure, but it was somewhere in the later 1970s or thereabouts that it was no longer deemed necessary to have a brake at each end, and a brake coach could be positioned almost anywhere within a rake of coaches. By that time, the SR's fixed sets were long gone anyway.

 

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It seems to have been c1968, and the fixed sets were re-marshalled to put a single brake second (mostly) in the middle.

I can remember watching a video of Steam trains on youtube which I think was about the Steyning line. At one point it showed some sort of steam loco pulling a set of three Mk1 coaches on the approach to Brighton - with the BSK in the middle. If so, it was somewhat earlier - but I don't have a link to the video.

[Nearholmer]

When we discussed this before in another thread it struck me that the 4 CIG must have been designed c1962, so the concept must have been in the minds of the powers that be that early, and the 3H and 3D only had one (quite small) van.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Nearholmer

[keefer]

5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

( Hmm ... '8 axles behind the brake' - would that include the bogie under the passenger end ? )

No, 8 axles behind the brake vehicle.

Regarding more than one brake coach in a train, the PTM books would often state where each destination's parcels etc. should be put in each van.

e.g. on the ECML, front brake van may be Scottish destinations (each in a certain area of the van) and rear van for all other stops.

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

When we discussed this before in another thread it struck me that the 4 CIG must have been designed c1962, so the concept must have been in the minds of the powers that be that early, and the 3H and 3D only had one (quite small) van.

Ah  -  but the 3H and 3D only copied the existing 2EPB/2HAP style but the one-van multiple unit concept went back to the 2BIL/2HAL/2NOL generation and the Brighton's South London Line stock before them !

[Welchester]

9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Mail-order catalogues were big business, and stations like Peterborough and Worcester must have been mega-busy with ordered goods being despatched by train.

Indeed. My late father was Area Sales Manager in Gloucester in the 1970s, and he spoke of Kay’s of Worcester as a major customer of the Railway. By then, he was the only person in sales who had actually seen the inside of a goods shed.

[Mallard60022]

SR had so many Coaches it could usually use or borrow any old stock to supplement a Train, even at almost the last minute. They, as Dudders mentioned, also provided loads of 'Extras' on almost exactly the same routes west, splitting at Exeter in the main. Those were the years when Sotck often spent almost  3/4 of a year in sidings earning no revenue.

Rural areas beyond the South East, were almost totally reliant on rail services for Parcels and all sorted of Goods. The Roads were just not there to cater for long distance Large Trucks. Then came the Road Lobby of the early 60s!!

As far as I am aware, very few SR Sets did not include 2 Brakes until post 63/64. Push Pull Sets, of certain Diagrams, were one.

Phil

[Nearholmer]

There were even “van mad” 2 sets for detaching from the ACE, which consisted, IIRC, of a brake composite with a tiny van section, and a brake third/second with a larger van, but they were for an exceptionally “luggage heavy” service.

 

People do seem to have taken a lot of stuff on holiday with them ‘in the old days’!

[Wickham Green too]

40 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... People do seem to have taken a lot of stuff on holiday with them ‘in the old days’!

Were the vans actually full of luggage people were taking on holiday WITH them - or with the Luggage In Advance for the next lot ? ...... discuss.

[Tom Burnham]

16 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Ah  -  but the 3H and 3D only copied the existing 2EPB/2HAP style but the one-van multiple unit concept went back to the 2BIL/2HAL/2NOL generation and the Brighton's South London Line stock before them !

2 and 3 car diesel and electric units with only one van acquired an inverted black triangle on the yellow end to indicate which end had the van. Presumably parcels etc were expected to be loaded on most trains at that time.

[Wickham Green too]

I'm not sure the inverted triangle would have been an awful lot of use as there might be another van in a second unit coupled behind ! 😕

[Artless Bodger]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

People do seem to have taken a lot of stuff on holiday with them ‘in the old days’!

Late '60s our family had a week in Westbrook most summers in a small flat, had to take bedding, towels etc with us. Amazes me Dad could carry the big suitcase from home to East station. I used it mid '70s as a trunk to move books etc to uni by parcels train from West station - collecting the other end I had to get a mate to help carry it to a taxi!

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm not sure the inverted triangle would have been an awful lot of use as there might be another van in a second unit coupled behind ! 😕

The whole point of those units was single-sets for lightly-trafficked secondary routes, where the triangle was very useful indeed. Yes, the Central ran 9-car formations to and from London in the peak - but they weren't loading and unloading parcels en route. 

[Nearholmer]

The triangles were vital, because they told me whether I had to move along the platform to get my bike into a van.

[Artless Bodger]

The Tadpoles had quite a lot of van space too, in relation to the normally used seating. Only 3 bays in the DMB, perhaps 7 in the trailer if ex 6S, and the few not stripped for mail use in the ex EPB DT were normally locked out of use except iirc at school chuck out times, as they were not accessible by the conductor guard.

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The triangles were vital, because they told me whether I had to move along the platform to get my bike into a van.

The point I'm trying to make is that - to me - it always seemed odd to mark the end that DID have a van rather than the oddball ends that DIDN'T ............ from the perspective of a regular user of EPB stock where there were vans aplenty.