Dapol OO 'Air Ministry' 14T tank wagons

[Clive Mortimore]

I saw the wagons on display at Warley last weekend. I did question the platforms on the two Shell-BP B class tank wagons. Shell BP used longitudinal platforms, as on the two A class tanks. I was assured that the two B class tank wagons were based on photographs. I didn't spot the pre-war dashes either side on BP on each wagon. Nor registered the Shell Motor Spirit livery.

 

Preservation Societies like to paint tank wagons in the brighter pre war liveries even if the wagon is the wrong type.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Preservation Societies like to paint tank wagons in the brighter pre war liveries even if the wagon is the wrong type.

 

Of course.  It's what is expected by their punters, who have often seen the model railway industry's products....

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

 Tourret has a photo of 5056, an ex-Air Ministry wagon, in exactly this livery, except that it appears to have red solebars. The photo is undated, but presumably post-war. The caption and the text don't quite agree on the owner, but it was probably Shell Mex, not Shell-BP. I'm not sure about the number Dapol have used.

 

The Shell-BP joint marketing agreement ran from 1932 to 1976, so it seems a little implausible that a wagon from the 1950s would have carried a solely Shell livery. And the term "motor spirit" is more pre-war; by the 1950s it was petroleum. 

 

A photo of 5056 in this livery has already been posted upthread, I presume that's the same one that Tourret has. But, if so, then the following discussion is relevant - the conclusion appears to be that it's an early preservation photo from the 1970s, not an in-service photo.

 

Dapol have done this livery before, of course (photo from an archived eBay listing):

 

[markw]

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

 Tourret has a photo of 5056, an ex-Air Ministry wagon, in exactly this livery, except that it appears to have red solebars. The photo is undated, but presumably post-war. The caption and the text don't quite agree on the owner, but it was probably Shell Mex, not Shell-BP. I'm not sure about the number Dapol have used.

These liveries look OK to me. The Shell-BP class A tank with twin logos carries an A prefix to the number, which was used because the monoblock tank series duplicated the earlier numbers, so this is definitely a 1960s livery.

The photo of 5056 is of a preserved tank at carnforth.

Paul Bartlett has photos of 7522 with the 1962 Shell/BP livery showing through the preservation era paint which is what Dapol have based thier livery and number on.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/kesr

Edited December 1, 2023 by markw
Added link

[markw]

47 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I saw the wagons on display at Warley last weekend. I did question the platforms on the two Shell-BP B class tank wagons. Shell BP used longitudinal platforms, as on the two A class tanks. I was assured that the two B class tank wagons were based on photographs. I didn't spot the pre-war dashes either side on BP on each wagon. Nor registered the Shell Motor Spirit livery.

 

Preservation Societies like to paint tank wagons in the brighter pre war liveries even if the wagon is the wrong type.

The pre-war lettering had quotes as well as dashes  -"BP"-  post-war the quotes were dropped  -BP-  but only for a short while before the dashes were also dropped.

[Cwmtwrch]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

A photo of 5056 in this livery has already been posted upthread, I presume that's the same one that Tourret has. But, if so, then the following discussion is relevant - the conclusion appears to be that it's an early preservation photo from the 1970s, not an in-service photo.

 

Dapol have done this livery before, of course (photo from an archived eBay listing):

It is the same photo. Tourret also has a photo of 4492 in the Shell-Mex motor spirit livery, which I hadn't seen before. The caption describes it as a 1927 specification wagon in 1927 livery, as restored in 1970.

[John Isherwood]

For those who - like me - are fastidious about BR-era tank wagon liveries, a search of my Cambridge Custom Transfers website will produce several sheets of transfers for ex-Air Ministry tank wagons.

 

John Isherwood.

[markw]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

It is the same photo. Tourret also has a photo of 4492 in the Shell-Mex motor spirit livery, which I hadn't seen before. The caption describes it as a 1927 specification wagon in 1927 livery, as restored in 1970.

But as a pre-war wagon 4492 would originally have been light stone not the silver of the Dapol wagon.

 

[Butler Henderson]

4 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

The Shell-BP joint marketing agreement ran from 1932 to 1976, so it seems a little implausible that a wagon from the 1950s would have carried a solely Shell livery. And the term "motor spirit" is more pre-war; by the 1950s it was petroleum. 

 

A photo of 5056 in this livery has already been posted upthread, I presume that's the same one that Tourret has. But, if so, then the following discussion is relevant - the conclusion appears to be that it's an early preservation photo from the 1970s, not an in-service photo.

 

Dapol have done this livery before, of course (photo from an archived eBay listing):

 

Originally done as Mainline 37165 in 1979. That does look like it was a Dapol production as the brake blocks are in line with the wheels. No alwatys that easy to tell as Dapol simply repackaged a lot of unsold Mainline models as their own.

[jjnewitt]

6 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I saw the wagons on display at Warley last weekend. I did question the platforms on the two Shell-BP B class tank wagons. Shell BP used longitudinal platforms, as on the two A class tanks. I was assured that the two B class tank wagons were based on photographs. I didn't spot the pre-war dashes either side on BP on each wagon.

 

The twin longitudinal platforms only appeared in the late 1950s. Prior to that they had what they were built with. The SMBP class B wagons are accurate for the late 1940s and 1950s. After that they should have the longitudinal type of walkway. 

 

Justin

[46444]

Although the prototypes were steam heated tanks (carrying bittumen) the Berry Wiggins tank would be ideal as a Forest of Dean tank wagon as seen at the Whimsey depot on trains from Bullo Pill Junction originating at Gloucester having come from the refinery in Kent.

 

Although not prototypical it would be great if someone could do the white shields with the 'Liquaphalt' logo on them as a replacement for the pre-printed ones on the Dapol version.

 

I did approach John Isherwood a few years ago and asked if he would consider making up some transfers. Understanderbly he declined as they were not prototypical which I fully understand.

 

The alternative at present for these "Liquaphalt" white discs is through PoW Sides if still available.

 

A set of extra running numbers would also be appreciated as well. 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, markw said:

The pre-war lettering had quotes as well as dashes  -"BP"-  post-war the quotes were dropped  -BP-  but only for a short while before the dashes were also dropped.

I could understand full stops for the abbreviation (B.P.) but why quotation marks and dashes ?

Written instruction to the painters to put "Shell" on one side and "BP" on the other where the dashes are, taken too literally?

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I could understand full stops for the abbreviation (B.P.) but why quotation marks and dashes ?

Written instruction to the painters to put "Shell" on one side and "BP" on the other where the dashes are, taken too literally?

That instruction was certainly applied to Class A tanks (up to about 1960) but the Shell - BP and later simplifications of it seem to have been universal on the Class B fleet.

 

If it was erroneous, I'd have thought later repaints would have seen it corrected. Instead, the later Class A livery featured both emblems on each side, so presumably the Class B policy prevailed.

 

My interpretation of the dashes is simply as an attempt to visually balance the respective lengths of the "Shell" and "BP" either side of the hyphen.

 

John

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Cwmtwrch]

13 hours ago, 46444 said:

Although the prototypes were steam heated tanks (carrying bittumen) the Berry Wiggins tank would be ideal as a Forest of Dean tank wagon as seen at the Whimsey depot on trains from Bullo Pill Junction originating at Gloucester having come from the refinery in Kent.

Berry Wiggins ran heavy fuel oil tanks with heating coils but no lagging and bitumen tanks with heating coils and lagging; the Dapol model is intended to be the former. Heavy fuel oil is too viscous to flow properly at ambient temperatures, so has to be heated at the destination to permit discharge. Bitumen was loaded hot, hence the lagging, as if it cooled too much in transit it solidified, and had to be reheated to make up for heat lost in transit to permit discharge.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Bitumen was loaded hot, hence the lagging, as if it cooled too much in transit it solidified, and had to be reheated to make up for heat lost in transit to permit discharge.

 

They could have used the same approach for transporting cheese in bulk 😆

[Wickham Green too]

You'd need a world record slice of toast for that !

[KeithMacdonald]

On 01/12/2023 at 11:45, MarkSG said:

Much though I like these models, I do get the feeling that Dapol haven't put as much effort into researching appropriate liveries as they have researching the design of the wagon. The Shell-Mex and Lobitos liveries appear to be wrong for the era, and the Berry Wiggins livery, although correct for the era, doesn't appear to have ever been applied to an Air Ministry tank. At least, I can't find any photos of it on one. The only photos I can find of an Air Ministry tank in in-service condition (ie, not on a preserved railway) are in Esso, Regent and Shell/BP liveries. That doesn't mean they never carried any others, of course, but I do wonder what Dapol's justification is for some of the choices they've made.

 

It's frustrating, isn't it?

It seems like there was one in their O-gauge, if you can find it.

e.g.

Dapol 7F-058-009 14-ton Type A tank wagon "Air Ministry" black - AM240

https://www.hattons.co.uk/315657/dapol_7f_058_009_14_ton_type_a_tank_wagon_air_ministry_/stockdetail

But:

This item has sold out.

[MarkSG]

20 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

It's frustrating, isn't it?

It seems like there was one in their O-gauge, if you can find it.

e.g.

Dapol 7F-058-009 14-ton Type A tank wagon "Air Ministry" black - AM240

https://www.hattons.co.uk/315657/dapol_7f_058_009_14_ton_type_a_tank_wagon_air_ministry_/stockdetail

But:

This item has sold out.

 

I suspect that, if these OO ones do well, an Air Ministry livery is a likely second run. If they time it well, they should be able to get it on the shelves at the same time as Rapido's S160, which would be handy for people modelling a wartime setting.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 02/12/2023 at 14:10, Wickham Green too said:

You'd need a world record slice of toast for that !

 

You transport that on one of these ...

 

[Wickham Green too]

You'd probably need a gauge 1 toast rack glass wagon to satisfy a 4mm scale tankerful of melted cheese ! ................... some size of butter van and pickle hopper might be required too. 🤤

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

You'd probably need a gauge 1 toast rack glass wagon to satisfy a 4mm scale tankerful of melted cheese ! ................... some size of butter van and pickle hopper might be required too. 🤤

[jjnewitt]

On 01/12/2023 at 11:45, MarkSG said:

Much though I like these models, I do get the feeling that Dapol haven't put as much effort into researching appropriate liveries as they have researching the design of the wagon. The Shell-Mex and Lobitos liveries appear to be wrong for the era, and the Berry Wiggins livery, although correct for the era, doesn't appear to have ever been applied to an Air Ministry tank. At least, I can't find any photos of it on one. The only photos I can find of an Air Ministry tank in in-service condition (ie, not on a preserved railway) are in Esso, Regent and Shell/BP liveries. That doesn't mean they never carried any others, of course, but I do wonder what Dapol's justification is for some of the choices they've made.

 

The Berry Wiggins livery is correctly applied. They had both class A and class B Air Ministry oil tanks as well as the bitumen tanks. There is an image of 106, a welded example, in Petroleum Railtank Wagons of Britain (enlarged edition) by R Tourret.

 

Other oil companies to have used Air Ministry tanks include National Benzole (part of BP from '57),  Benzole Producers Limited (formed in  '57 out of National Benzole when BP took over) and Major & Co. Ltd of Hull.

 

Edit: Oh, and of course there's the Petroleum Board liveries that they wore when first built, stone with a red band for early builds and grey for later ones.

 

Justin  

Edited December 4, 2023 by jjnewitt
Added information

[GreenGiraffe22]

I've been trying my best to follow the livery discussion on here and got thoroughly confused, so have we established if any are suitable for pre 1947? 😅 

[Wickham Green too]

Dapol are offering none in wartime Air Ministry tanks garb - which is how most would have appeared before 1947 ........ I THINK the Shell-BP- and Esso class B conversions would have appeared ABOUT that time ( not sure about Berry Wiggins nor the Esso class A ) ..... Regent and Shell BP class A are too late - Lobitos and Shell class A are pre-war liveries which might have appeared on similar wagons but they'd have been painted over before '47.

[SteamingWales]

Wondering how easy these will be to renumber as I'd probably only want the silver Shell/BP tankers?

 

Or just be patient and hope for a second run which is similar to the O gauge announcements with another running number (and also National Benzole which is also on my shopping list)?