Dapol OO 'Air Ministry' 14T tank wagons

[gwrrob]

Announcement today of a new range of tank wagons in various liveries expected this winter. Price is £35.00

 

Further online research has found that these could be the same as the O gauge versions from the same manufacturer. There's a photo from Hatton's shewing the class B Esso black version with the same running number, 1869.

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/coming-this-winter-14t-tanks-from-Dapol?fbclid=IwAR2UKxBbVTcupx_kEJmjbGtDnZ2aywboi2yRl8MtjpSAQvrtza4GJ4_hI7Q

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by gwrrob
add a photo

[Wheatley]

Ooh ! Proper Air Ministry tanks and not another generic 'looks a bit like all of them but not exactly like any of them' tank. 

 

The price no doubt reflects the fact that there are an awful lot of twiddly bits on a tank wagon to be fitted by hand. I can't help thinking that working springing is solving a problem which most potential buyers don't have though, and which those that do are more than capable of fixing themselves. 

[Dunsignalling]

It frankly astounds me that these haven't been jumped on for RTR models (in OO) long ago.

 

If Dapol feel so inclined, replacing some of their older models (the milk tanks in particular) to similar standards would be very welcome, too.

 

John

Edited August 19, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[46444]

Someone say Bradley Wiggins...😛

 

(4F-059-005) Class B Berry Wiggins Black 101

 

Brilliant news. Think Dapol are on a roll...

 

Thanks for the heads up Robin.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

[gwrrob]

1 hour ago, 46444 said:

Someone say Bradley Wiggins...😛

 

(4F-059-005) Class B Berry Wiggins Black 101

 

Brilliant news. Think Dapol are on a roll...

 

 

Could be similar to this very attractive version Mark.😉

 

[46444]

7 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Could be similar to this very attractive version Mark.😉

 

 

That's the one... 😎

[Pteremy]

This is excellent news.

 

I wonder whether the (essentially RCH 1927) underframe will be available as a spare? If so it might be possible to provide a Bachmann body with a more suitable underframe. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

This is excellent news.

 

I wonder whether the (essentially RCH 1927) underframe will be available as a spare? If so it might be possible to provide a Bachmann body with a more suitable underframe. 

Highly doubtful, I'd think.

 

If you were trying to sell new high quality products, would you offer people a cheap way to upgrade a competitor's inferior ones as an alternative to buying yours?

 

John

Edited August 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[john new]

People seem to forget things very quickly, working springs is not a new thing - PECO's wonderful wagons had that when I was kid so probably late 50s onwards.

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, john new said:

People seem to forget things very quickly, working springs is not a new thing - PECO's wonderful wagons had that when I was kid so probably late 50s onwards.

Agreed, but it only worked well because Wonderful Wagons were rather heavier than most r-t-r ones are these days. Do Peco's current Tank wagons still have it?

 

I hope Dapol aren't just doing it to create a USP that may not be U!😏

 

John

Edited August 21, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Pteremy]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

If you were trying to sell new high quality products, would you offer people a cheap way to upgrade a competitor's inferior ones as an alternative to buying yours?

 

 

I don't think of it as an 'alternative' given that the Bachmann tank diameter is smaller, so providing a route to something intermediate between the Oxford Rail tank and what Dapol are about to release (albeit I agree of lesser quality). And Dapol do seem to sell virtually every component of their models as spares - at least for some models they do.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, but it only worked well because Wonderful Wagons were rather heavier than most r-t-r ones are these days. Do Peco's current Tank wagons still have it?

 

I hope Dapol aren't just doing it to create a USP that may not be U!😏

 

John

And it tended to get a bit less effective over time.  Quite why people hav e to claim something is 'the first' when it very obviously isn't strikes me as rather childish and clearly born out of either ignorance or in some cases arrogance (aka 'it's always been in our range of models').  That said these do look very nice but Class B tanks did tend to get very grubby except when they were downright filthy, especially the bitumen cars.   (yes - we knew them as 'rail tank cars')

[Dunsignalling]

46 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

I don't think of it as an 'alternative' given that the Bachmann tank diameter is smaller, so providing a route to something intermediate between the Oxford Rail tank and what Dapol are about to release (albeit I agree of lesser quality). And Dapol do seem to sell virtually every component of their models as spares - at least for some models they do.

 

Dapol do offer parts from their existing range,  mainly derived from ancient Airfix and Hornby Dublo stuff, but are almost alone in doing so. This new product is a very different kettle of fish, having more in common with their 7mm wagons, which (AFAIK), they only sell complete.

 

Dapol are following the playbook established by Accurascale and Rapido in OO, and I doubt they will risk the perception of these wagons being tarnished by association with their "Railroad-level" background.

 

In any event, the underpinnings of these wagons are very different to the familiar one-piece mouldings of yore and will represent a significant proportion of the overall cost of producing the complete wagons.

 

John

 

[Nile]

15 hours ago, john new said:

People seem to forget things very quickly, working springs is not a new thing - PECO's wonderful wagons had that when I was kid so probably late 50s onwards.

Were they ever available RTR? 

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Nile said:

Were they ever available RTR? 

Not that I remember.

[SteamingWales]

Well played from Dapol. I would assume they have essentially used the same research from the O gauge batch and shrunk it down the OO gauge. (I know in terms of CAD shrink rays aren't a thing)

 

Like someone else has said already, 6-wheel milk tanks next please Dapol!

[gwrrob]

More info on the releases here https://www.hattons.co.uk/directory/vehicledetails/3145174/14_ton_air_ministry_tank

[MarkSG]

Hmm, nice. Falls very much into the category of "don't really need it, but can easily justify it". A demobbed Air Ministry tank would be entirely plausible in 1950s East Anglia. I'll have to see what liveries they offer it in.

[JaymzHatstand]

I must admit a level of ignorance when it comes to tank wagons, and knowing what would be seen, and when. Would one of these be seen in a mixed goods, or would they run in blocks?

 

I know several of various designs and origins have made it into preservation, with a couple which look similar (to me at least) to these on the NYMR, a black ESSO, and a brown United Molasses vehicle (though I think the latter is an earlier build). The type of tank and discharge arrangements are outside my sphere of knowledge, so I've no idea if one of the new Dapol wagons will be suitable for one (or both) of these!

 

Images of the two wagons in question can be found here

 

http://ukrailways1970tilltoday.me.uk/wagonsNYMR_page3.html

 

If anyone can shed any light on the suitability of the Dapol offering for either of these, I'd be most grateful!

 

Cheers,

 

J

[coeurdelyon]

Hi J, The picture of ESSO is one of the Air Ministry tank wagons converted to class B usage, and will be reproduced in 4mm scale by Dapol The class B tankers in particular ESSO and Shell/BP would travel in trains of similar vehicles to the refinery, whereas after the war class A  tankers (petroleum spirit) could be seen singularly in a goods train going to a depot. Thanks for your interest,

Regards, Richard

[Wickham Green too]

Perennial question, I'm afraid - has conversion to nearer-to-scale track gauges been considered in the design of these ? ( I suspect there could be issues wit the working suspension.)

 

While I'm on, I photographed this fictional liveried 1943 Hurst Nelson tank at the Great Central in 1977 ..... ..... there are pictures of it as late as 2011 on the interweb ( looking very faded ) but I 've not managed to establish its true identity : Registration Number looks to be 164253 ..... anyone got any further info ?

 

Further Info : http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9368

Edited September 5, 2022 by Wickham Green too
Further info found !

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, coeurdelyon said:

Hi J, The picture of ESSO is one of the Air Ministry tank wagons converted to class B usage, and will be reproduced in 4mm scale by Dapol The class B tankers in particular ESSO and Shell/BP would travel in trains of similar vehicles to the refinery, whereas after the war class A  tankers (petroleum spirit) could be seen singularly in a goods train going to a depot.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but am I right in thinking that class B tanks carried unrefined crude oil from port to refinery, while class A tanks carried refined petrol from refinery to customer? Which is why class B tanks would normally be part of a single-purpose train consisting just of tank wagons carrying bulk oil to the refinery, while a class A tank would be part of a mixed goods train heading to wherever the customer's depot was located?

 

If so, which of the class A tank liveries planned by Dapol would be most likely to be found in a mixed goods train in East Anglia? 

 

Also (and I apologise for all the questions, but my knowledge of tank wagons is similarly limited), how can you tell the difference between a class A and class B tank? What are the visual differences?

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Perennial question, I'm afraid - has conversion to nearer-to-scale track gauges been considered in the design of these ? ( I suspect there could be issues wit the working suspension.)

 

Perennial answer. If the manufacturer (a) thinks of it soon enough to do so, and (b) considers the potential extra sales justify any effort/expense incurred in doing it. 

 

P4 modellers (in particular) commonly replace wagon underframes with sprung, etched brass units as a matter of course.

 

Dapol has stated these wagons will be sprung, but, as you suggest, there is a danger that doing so using plastic components could actually reduce the space available for EM/P4 wheelsets.

 

John

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

6 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Forgive my ignorance, but am I right in thinking that class B tanks carried unrefined crude oil from port to refinery, while class A tanks carried refined petrol from refinery to customer? Which is why class B tanks would normally be part of a single-purpose train consisting just of tank wagons carrying bulk oil to the refinery, while a class A tank would be part of a mixed goods train heading to wherever the customer's depot was located?

 

If so, which of the class A tank liveries planned by Dapol would be most likely to be found in a mixed goods train in East Anglia? 

 

Also (and I apologise for all the questions, but my knowledge of tank wagons is similarly limited), how can you tell the difference between a class A and class B tank? What are the visual differences?

 

Class B - many products; not usually crude oil; it is the flash-point temperature that defines the class.

 

Both classes would be equally likely to be present in a pick-up goods.

 

Class A - no bottom discharge pipe; top siphon attachment.

 

Class B - bottom discharge pipe.

 

CJI.

[Fat Controller]

7 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Forgive my ignorance, but am I right in thinking that class B tanks carried unrefined crude oil from port to refinery, while class A tanks carried refined petrol from refinery to customer? Which is why class B tanks would normally be part of a single-purpose train consisting just of tank wagons carrying bulk oil to the refinery, while a class A tank would be part of a mixed goods train heading to wherever the customer's depot was located?

 

If so, which of the class A tank liveries planned by Dapol would be most likely to be found in a mixed goods train in East Anglia? 

 

Also (and I apologise for all the questions, but my knowledge of tank wagons is similarly limited), how can you tell the difference between a class A and class B tank? What are the visual differences?

Counter-intuitively, crude oil is a Class A liquid, as it contains volatile fractions, giving a flash-point similar to petrol. Class B liquids include diesel. Class B tanks were usually bottom (gravity) discharge, whilst Class A tanks had siphon discharge via a pipe inserted through the inspection cove at the top of the barrel. This was because early valves were not considered reliable enough. Until the late 1950s, unloading facilities were fairly basic; with discharge direct into road tankers,  'jerry cans' or drums; storage tanks, if present, would be fairly small. The wagons would often be unloaded in a quiet corner of a yard, not at a dedicated terminal, though East Anglia had quite a number of these post WW2, due to the number of air-fields.