Rapido OO Gauge GWR B Set coaches

[checkrail]

22 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I get the impression from GWW that the officially preferred term is Windsor Brown, which commonly gets shortened to 'brown'. I should perhaps stop using 'chocolate' on gwr.org., but it does tend to be used synonomously with 'brown'.

"Windsor brown" eh?  Sounds like a soup. I remember that when I first got the GWR bug at around age 12 or 13 I asked  my dad to get me some brown paint to apply to the lower half of my Tri-ang blood & custard coaches.  He came home with a pot from Walker & Holzapfel's or Bassett-Lowke's labelled "GWR umber".  I don't know if this term was ever used officially.

[Miss Prism]

'Umber' is just another word for dark brown. There's nothing wrong with Bassett-Lowke calling their pots GWR umber, but it tells you nothing about the contents of the pot.

[Compound2632]

On 09/12/2022 at 16:07, Miss Prism said:

I get the impression from GWW that the officially preferred term is Windsor Brown, which commonly gets shortened to 'brown'. I should perhaps stop using 'chocolate' on gwr.org., but it does tend to be used synonomously with 'brown'.

 

It's never described as "Venetian red" which is also often described as "chocolate". But chocolate comes in many shades of brown... 

[checkrail]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

It's never described as "Venetian red"

I have however seen the term "venetian red" used to describe the colour of GWR droplights and bolections, though I've also seen them described as "mahogany".  (I use SR venetian red as a proxy on toplights and clerestories.)  

[Mikkel]

On 09/12/2022 at 17:07, Miss Prism said:

 

I get the impression from GWW that the officially preferred term is Windsor Brown, which commonly gets shortened to 'brown'. I should perhaps stop using 'chocolate' on gwr.org., but it does tend to be used synonomously with 'brown'.

 

"Chocolate" was used for the structure colour, as can be seen in the Swindon Stores books which listed ready-made paints. so it would have created confusion if the stock colour had the same name.

 

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

"Chocolate" was used for the structure colour,

 

I though that was three shades of stone?

[57xx]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I though that was three shades of stone?

 

 Which specific time frame are you thinking of...?

[Compound2632]

Just now, 57xx said:

 Which specific time frame are you thinking of...?

 

Window frames, rather than time frames...

 

I don't know much about the Great Western.

[57xx]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Window frames, rather than time frames...

 

I don't know much about the Great Western.

 

Depending on the era, it could be 2 or 3 stone shades, white or chocolate for window frames, doors in chocolate or not etc. It's a complete topic in itself with more than a few past threads on here if it piques your interest.

Edited December 10, 2022 by 57xx

[Mikkel]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I though that was three shades of stone?

 

There was a "fourth"!  🙂

 

GWR Swindon Stores Book 1922 edition (but stamped 1932 on top):

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Bridge green? That seems to be the current favoured colour!

[ikcdab]

These do look like excellent models.  I have just seen the price...£170 for two coaches.  Really? Are we becoming immune to hyper inflation in the RM world?

[gwrrob]

6 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

These do look like excellent models.  I have just seen the price...£170 for two coaches.  Really? Are we becoming immune to hyper inflation in the RM world?

 

Retailers have them for 144 sheets a pair which when you look at the models spec is quite a bargain imo. 

[John Isherwood]

16 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Retailers have them for 144 sheets a pair which when you look at the models spec is quite a bargain imo. 

 

True - but how many modellers have, prior to this announcement, felt the need to fit compartment luggage racks, etc.

 

In these days of "We can do it - so we will", surely we have to ask "But at what price"?

 

I'll be sticking with my (detailed) Keyser and Airfix B-sets!

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

True - but how many modellers have, prior to this announcement, felt the need to fit compartment luggage racks, etc.

 

In these days of "We can do it - so we will", surely we have to ask "But at what price"?

 

The Hattons Genesis carriages have luggage racks. (Rather incongruously, of BR Mk1 pattern as far as I can tell.) I wouldn't imagine it's a significant contribution to the overall price.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[John Isherwood]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Hattons Genesis carriages have luggage racks. (Rather incongruously, of BR Mk1 pattern as far as I can tell.) I wouldn't imagine it's a significant contribution to the overall price.

 

Not my point - how many potential purchasers WANT luggage racks, ETC.?

 

A lot of this superfluous, often invisible, detail is being added simply because : -

a] it can be done (at a price);

 

b] the opposition hasn't done it yet.

 

At the moment, it seems that there is a viable market of potential purchasers who will pay ANY price, however inflated, for the latest bells and whistles.

 

What you can be sure of is that they are NOT young, potential railway modellers of the future.

 

The industry relies upon the mature 'modeller', with plenty disposable income, at its peril. Jam today may become stale crusts tomorrow!

 

CJI.

[Corbs]

47 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

True - but how many modellers have, prior to this announcement, felt the need to fit compartment luggage racks, etc.

 

In these days of "We can do it - so we will", surely we have to ask "But at what price"?

 

I'll be sticking with my (detailed) Keyser and Airfix B-sets!

 

CJI.

 

On the plus side for people who prefer to do the updating/detailing themselves, people who buy the new ones might sell their older ones on.

 

Certainly I have benefitted from cheaper second hand models when it comes to customising them, easier than chopping in to a new model!

[Compound2632]

I still don't understand this. The core of the complaints were seeing here seems to be that Rapido are offering a high quality model.

[Corbs]

I don't think any manufacturer is going to win public approval (or any medals) by deliberately de-rating the detail of their product in order to save a few quid off the RRP*. Something similar has been tried before by another manufacturer and it was received poorly.

 

*especially if other manufacturers do offer the detail for a few quid more.

[Neal Ball]

9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

True - but how many modellers have, prior to this announcement, felt the need to fit compartment luggage racks, etc.

 

In these days of "We can do it - so we will", surely we have to ask "But at what price"?

 

I'll be sticking with my (detailed) Keyser and Airfix B-sets!

 

CJI.

My understanding is that adding in such details, adds very little to the overall price.

 

As a consumer, it’s a case of pays your money and makes your choice(s). 
 

I have recently been fitting Comet sides to different carriages and adding lighting etc. and am obviously very happy with the results.

 

But, these B set carriages take the standards to very different levels. I certainly could not achieve the sort of standards that Rapido are setting out now. Long May it continue…. 
 

I for one am very keen to see standards of RTR carriages improve and welcome the initiatives that we are now seeing.

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I still don't understand this. The core of the complaints were seeing here seems to be that Rapido are offering a high quality model.

And asking a normal 2022 price for it. The quality we are offered these days in RTR is off any scale we might have imagined even 20 years ago, but quality does cost. So yes, some of the success in present market sales is to grey-power - those of us who never could quite get the detail or paint-finish we wanted from kits, but now see smashing RTR models in the shop window, at an age when we may have a few coins in our pocket. 

 

Being home for a few days, I have been able to compare my latest coach purchases with some BSL/Phoenix kits assembled and painted by Lawrence/Goddard, that I got fairly cheaply on ebay a few years ago. The colours match pretty well, and the printing is even better than Larry could do. He admitted as much on this forum some years ago, looking at the Hornby olive Maunsells. 

 

Many years ago, I recall a motoring magazine road-testing a luxury car. Their final words were "If you can afford it, try it, and you will almost certainly buy one." This B-set is likely to provoke a comparable recommendation, I'm sure. 

[Compound2632]

On price.

 

The Airifix B-set carriages were listed at £4,25 in the August 1979 price list: 

http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/GMRpriceList2.htm.

 

That's £8.50 for a pair. According to the Bank of England inflation calculator, £8.50 in 1979 would have the same purchasing power as £38.39 in November 2022, this calculation being based on CPI values. So, at £144 for the pair, the Rapido carriages are 3.75 times as expensive. But if we compare the list price of the Airfix Royal Scot in 1979, £22.95, an amount equivalent to a purchasing power of £103.64 in November 2022, it's evident that the multiplier for new large locomotives is around a factor of two-and-a-bit. (A direct comparison is not possible since there's no current Royal Scot model, the Hornby one not being listed; the Bachmann Jubilee / Patriot come closest but are not brand new releases.) 

 

So top-of-the-range carriages are relatively more expensive than the products of over forty years ago than are top-of-the-range locomotives. But one can argue that the difference in quality is proportionately greater. It's not a like-for-like comparison.

 

What would be the reaction to the Airfix B-set coach if it was released as being an all-new model today? We'd have a chorus of outrage that it wasn't up to modern standards!

Edited December 15, 2022 by Compound2632

[No Decorum]

I often get things wrong. For example, I can’t see the point of producing a duplicate model where an adequate model already exists. However, the market clearly disagrees. I found myself charmed by Dapol’s 68s to the extent of getting six of them. For me, those days are over. However, I would rather have one superb model than half-a-dozen poor ones. Corb’s reference to another manufacturer was likely to Hornby and “Design Clever”. The problem, in my view, with that aberration was not that there was anything wrong with a bit of simplification but that the whole thing was done very badly – nasty motors, poor chassis and iffy paintwork.

[The Fatadder]

5 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

The problem, in my view, with that aberration was not that there was anything wrong with a bit of simplification but that the whole thing was done very badly – nasty motors, poor chassis and iffy paintwork.

There is a big difference between making detail cuts to bits like separate handrails/steam pipes etc or paint which is highly visible or reducing interior detail or modelling bits of underframe that can only be seen when it’s upside down where there is much less of a visual impact.

 

However these coaches will by their nature be running slowly for the most part in branch line format.  So there is a much higher chance of seeing all This extra interior detail than on a mainline coach going past at full pelt.

Edited December 15, 2022 by The Fatadder

[VIA185]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Not my point - how many potential purchasers WANT luggage racks, ETC.?

 

A lot of this superfluous, often invisible, detail is being added simply because : -

a] it can be done (at a price);

 

b] the opposition hasn't done it yet.

 

At the moment, it seems that there is a viable market of potential purchasers who will pay ANY price, however inflated, for the latest bells and whistles.

 

What you can be sure of is that they are NOT young, potential railway modellers of the future.

 

The industry relies upon the mature 'modeller', with plenty disposable income, at its peril. Jam today may become stale crusts tomorrow!

 

CJI.

In the case of Rapido, it's all about the philosophy of the man at the top. He tells how it began with under frame detail because as a small kid on a ground-level Canadian 'platform', the underside and running gear was what he saw. Now, it's a case of "if it's on the real thing, it's on the model." Now, if Rapido (as I've suggested to them in the past) did a Bulleid Tavern Car pair, there would be no need to model any interior detail at all but wouldn't it be fabulous just to know it was there, complete (as on their North American dining cars) with plates and cutlery on the tables! (CJL)