Rapido OO Gauge GWR 44xx/45xx/4575 Small Prairie

[Hal Nail]

This has reminded me of a query. What is the "tube" that goes through the front of the cab under the driver's side window?

 

I need to source one for my 7mm model but not sure what I'm looking for.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

What is the "tube" that goes through the front of the cab under the driver's side window?

 

Don't know. Many of the 45s had them, but I can't find evidence of one on a 44.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

13 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Don't know. Many of the 45s had them, but I can't find evidence of one on a 44.

 

 

 

4409 definitely had one - clearly visible in a photo of it taken from station platform level.   The thing looks like a small air reservoir so I wonder if it was possibly connected with the ATC to provide a bit more noticeable noise from the siren?

[gwrrob]

48 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

4409 definitely had one - clearly visible in a photo of it taken from station platform level.   

 

As did 4406 taken at Wellington in 06/47. Not all of them had whatever it might be.

[The Johnster]

And not all of them apparently had them, whatever they were, all the time; photo in Hodge/Lewis 'Tondu Valleys' of 4406 at Pyle on a Porthcawl working in 1952 shows what looks very much like a blanking plate on the cab front showing where whatever it was had been removed.  A 1948 shot of 4404 on shed at Tondu shows no hint of whatever it was.

 

The thot plickens, or something!

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Johnster

[BVMR21]

Random (and probably silly) question but did Wartime Black get applied to the 44s?

[gwrrob]

On 01/12/2022 at 17:51, Corbs said:

The Transport Library's photo archive shows 4405 at Totnes in the 1950s (with no extension block visible).

 

For completion here are all their 44xx photos.

 

https://www.thetransportlibrary.co.uk/page/1?per_page=50&search=4400#media_75a4c271-72f4-42c6-9c1b-c6904855a9b6

[57xx]

4 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

This has reminded me of a query. What is the "tube" that goes through the front of the cab under the driver's side window?

 

I need to source one for my 7mm model but not sure what I'm looking for.

 

 

Is it a pasty holder?

[Miss Prism]

On 15/04/2023 at 13:37, The Stationmaster said:

The thing looks like a small air reservoir so I wonder if it was possibly connected with the ATC to provide a bit more noticeable noise from the siren?

 

44s didn't receive ATC as far as I know.

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

44s didn't receive ATC as far as I know.

However according to the RCTS history 4401/6/9 were fitted with ATC in 1937 and 4403 was fitted in 1943.  This information  was not amended in the corrections to all parts of the history published in 1993. 

[The Johnster]

The blanking plate mentioned suggests that the whatever-it-was protruded into the cab, unless of course I've mistaken the blanking plate for a cleaner darker area where the whatever-it-was butted against the cab front and it's only recently been removed.  Photo is at Pyle with the loco smokebox-leading on a Porthcawl working in the middle of the platform by the station buildings, with the photographer on the Porthcawl end of the opposite platform, so the loco is perhaps 70 yards away, and the reproduction is not finely detailed.

[rprodgers]

On 15/04/2023 at 11:18, gwrrob said:

 

Here are some images posted by Rapido in the current newsletter.

 

 

 

 

 

Looks impressive.

Hopefully provision will be made so that variations can be produced without the outside steam pipes.

 

It might be too much to ask for a variant with the bunker not extended?

[tomparryharry]

I could be wrong, but I 'think' it's related to the ATC bell. The small vacuum cylinder gives the driver enough time to acknowledge the signal, before the cylinder is emptied, and the main vacuum brakes come into play.

 

Need to check that, however. 

[Captain Kernow]

On 15/04/2023 at 11:18, gwrrob said:

Here are some images posted by Rapido in the current newsletter

This is looking very good, but I wonder if the cab sides could be thinned a little, to give a more prototypical thickness on what is quite a prominent feature?

 

[The Johnster]

That looks amazing.  Will we be having printed dials?  Not sure about thinning the cab sides, as the beading hides the thickness quite effectively.  The only place it really shows is at the spectable plate window reveals, and judicious glazing can divert a lot of attention from it here.  Perhaps it might be possible to chamfer the edges down to scale thickness to give a scale appearance without sacrificing structural integrity, but the cost-effectiveness and engineering practicality of this would be something I am not qualified to comment on. 

 

The bar is set by the very good Bachmann products, and it will be interesting to see by how much Rapido surpass it. 

[Mark]

On 16/04/2023 at 20:28, rprodgers said:

Looks impressive.

Hopefully provision will be made so that variations can be produced without the outside steam pipes.

 

It might be too much to ask for a variant with the bunker not extended?

Looking good. On the 44xx and early 45xx up to 4554 the valence should joggle outwards before the motion bracket up to the front buffer beam. Hopefully the images below will illustrate this. 
 

Mark

[RapidoCorbs]

On 25/04/2023 at 08:18, Mark said:

Looking good. On the 44xx and early 45xx up to 4554 the valence should joggle outwards before the motion bracket up to the front buffer beam. Hopefully the images below will illustrate this. 
 

Mark

 

 

 

You're right Mark, this bit needs altering as it's still straight on the above CAD  🤙 There are quite a few tweaks still to make.

 

I have a couple of livery questions as we are working through the tooling/livery options for phase 1 and would appreciate the community's input.

First question:

4407 was painted in the G W R livery (appears in multiple photos in this condition) but it has the curved running board by this time which we are not covering in this initial tooling suite (also has slightly different side tanks to most of them).

 

4406 seems to have been both the most widely travelled and the most repainted of the class, appearing in:

-Original lined green (no lettering)

-GREAT WESTERN

-Shirtbutton

-BR black small early crest (unlined)

-BR black large early crest (lined)

 

A picture has come to light which is labelled as 4406 and clearly shows the large W of G W R, so it may have worn this livery too, can anyone confirm this? The numberplate is not fully visible in the photo.

 

Were any others of the class photographed wearing G W R livery?

Second question:

4408 was one of the class members to receive both the lengthened and height-extended bunker, with the accompanying 4" block behind the bufferbeam

It was photographed in this condition at Tondu in c1946.

There is another photo of 4408 at Swindon in 1952 (having been clouted on the front end by the looks of it), but it seems that the 4" block has been removed and replaced by a full-length running board (as with 4405). Is this the case, or could it be an inconveniently-placed shadow?

(embedded picture, click to go to the site)

 

[MG 7305]

It looks me as if there is no rear buffer beam at all.  The buffers of the pannier behind the locomotive are pressed up against the rear of the 44xx and the 44xx has no rear buffers.  The RCTS record that 4408 was withdrawn in 1/53.  Perhaps the surmised clout resulted in some inspection of the damage, including the removal of the rear bufferbeam, followed by condemnation?

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, MG 7305 said:

and the 44xx has no rear buffers.

I agree it looks like the buffers are at least squashed, so there's some optical illusion going on which doesn't help.

 

Nevertheless the packing piece, if there was one, would be from the rear of the bunker and to the right, roughly where the curved part of the running board is in that pic, so it does look to me as though it has been modified as Corbs suggests.

 

On the subject of packing pieces, I'm fairly certain from various photos that the old bufferbeam remains in place behind the packing. As such the ATC shoe, where fitted, is still bolted to the back of the old buffer beam and not the new one. I can't definitively prove this tho, as haven't found a clear enough side view of the rear of a loco with both the packing piece and a shoe.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Hal Nail
clarity

[New Haven Neil]

I politely beg to differ.

 

The buffer face itself we can see is not concentric with the shank of the loco behind.  I think there's a lot of shadow fooling things here

 

 

 

[MG 7305]

This is fun.  However the bunker on 4408 has not been extended.  If there had been an extension piece which had been removed and an extended bunker then the bunker would overhang where the extension had been and it does not.  Compare the Smugmug photographs of 4409 (with extension) and the 4408 one at Swindon.  By eye, the bunker after the vertical line of rivets on 4408 is shorter than that of 4409.

[Hal Nail]

22 minutes ago, MG 7305 said:

If there had been an extension piece which had been removed and an extended bunker then the bunker would overhang where the extension had been and it does not.

 

Attached link shows 4408 clearly extended at a much earlier date.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/h50209AB4#h263fe1e1

 

Could the Swindon pic be misidentified? The number isnt legible in the above version.

[RapidoCorbs]

14 hours ago, MG 7305 said:

It looks me as if there is no rear buffer beam at all.  The buffers of the pannier behind the locomotive are pressed up against the rear of the 44xx and the 44xx has no rear buffers.  The RCTS record that 4408 was withdrawn in 1/53.  Perhaps the surmised clout resulted in some inspection of the damage, including the removal of the rear bufferbeam, followed by condemnation?

 

This would be the ideal result to be honest 😉

 

12 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I agree it looks like the buffers are at least squashed, so there's some optical illusion going on which doesn't help.

 

Nevertheless the packing piece, if there was one, would be from the rear of the bunker and to the right, roughly where the curved part of the running board is in that pic, so it does look to me as though it has been modified as Corbs suggests.

 

On the subject of packing pieces, I'm fairly certain from various photos that the old bufferbeam remains in place behind the packing. As such the ATC shoe, where fitted, is still bolted to the back of the old buffer beam and not the new one. I can't definitively prove this tho, as haven't found a clear enough side view of the rear of a loco with both the packing piece and a shoe.

 

 

Could be, I wonder if they would have had to modify the drawhook etc. to make up the thickness?

 

12 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

I politely beg to differ.

 

The buffer face itself we can see is not concentric with the shank of the loco behind.  I think there's a lot of shadow fooling things here

 

 

12 hours ago, MG 7305 said:

This is fun.  However the bunker on 4408 has not been extended.  If there had been an extension piece which had been removed and an extended bunker then the bunker would overhang where the extension had been and it does not.  Compare the Smugmug photographs of 4409 (with extension) and the 4408 one at Swindon.  By eye, the bunker after the vertical line of rivets on 4408 is shorter than that of 4409.

 

11 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Attached link shows 4408 clearly extended at a much earlier date.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1064952532/h50209AB4#h263fe1e1

 

Could the Swindon pic be misidentified? The number isnt legible in the above version.

 

@MG 7305 that's what I originally wondered but if we compare with this close-up of 4410 (which never received the extension even into BR days)  then the shorter distance between the number plate and the rear of the bunker is a lot clearer.

 

@Hal Nail Here is a close-up of the plate in the Swindon photo.

Apparently 4408 must have gained outside steam pipes between the c1946 Tondu pic and the c1952 Swindon one.

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by RapidoCorbs

[Hal Nail]

Those are good pics. It does look as though 4408's packing was removed and the valances extended. The rivet pattern on the valances is different. There were a couple of early 45xx in the series that usually had packing, but had fully extended valances - 4522 and 4539 here for example

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/h29906972

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p130586643/hdcfa44cd

 

I'm also less convinced about the original buffer beam remaining now, so need to get hold of a clear photo showing where the ATC shoe sits on those (45xx) that were packed out. Have one that isn't very clear but does look as though it is nearer the original beam which prompted my interest.

 

Something else that's obvious is the frames stop short, or are shallower, on 4410 as you can see the inside of the buffer beam. In the extended pics there is a solid mass under the bunker 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Harlequin]

On 05/05/2023 at 16:21, RapidoCorbs said:

I have a couple of livery questions as we are working through the tooling/livery options for phase 1 and would appreciate the community's input.

First question:

4407 was painted in the G W R livery (appears in multiple photos in this condition) but it has the curved running board by this time which we are not covering in this initial tooling suite (also has slightly different side tanks to most of them).

 

4406 seems to have been both the most widely travelled and the most repainted of the class, appearing in:

-Original lined green (no lettering)

-GREAT WESTERN

-Shirtbutton

-BR black small early crest (unlined)

-BR black large early crest (lined)

 

A picture has come to light which is labelled as 4406 and clearly shows the large W of G W R, so it may have worn this livery too, can anyone confirm this? The numberplate is not fully visible in the photo.

 

 

In the Much Wenlock and Craven Arms Railway book on page 244, I fancy that I can make out the R of G W R under the filth covering 4406 in June 1947.