Mourning the death of the traditional Estate car

[Mike_Walker]

You hum it son, I'll play it...

[KeithMacdonald]

16 hours ago, Night Train said:

This rather special estate car will be up for auction soon.

https://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2022-11-26/cars/ref-115-2009-jaguar-x-type-estate-ex-hm-queen-elizabeth-ii-jg/

 

One careful owner, never raced or rallied, comes with it's own crash-test dummy, complete with Alexia voice (answers to the name of Andrew)

[Titan]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It might fit in, but it looks to me that getting the thing in or out has all the makings of a traditional Laurel and Hardy handymen scene.

 

It must weigh a ton.

That was pretty much the case. I could just about lift one end of it so not overly heavy. Almost loaded it single handedly but common sense kicked in and got help.  Did not have to remove the middle seats so at a push could have sat four + piano in the back!

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

It might fit in, but it looks to me that getting the thing in or out has all the makings of a traditional Laurel and Hardy handymen scene.

 

Or Bernard Cribbins and "Right Said Fred" ?

 

We've had various estate cars over 30+ years, the one we like the best was a Peugeot 405 Diesel Estate, like this:

 

 

Clocked up 200K+ miles, had enough space in the back to move whole family, holiday luggage and several dogs at the same time. At other times, bales of straw, big furniture, cages with livestock, etc, etc. Only had to change it after someone else rearranged the front and the repair was more than the residual value. Looked at the next model, the 406, but didn't like that because the sloping roof and the intrusive wheel arches reduced the available space significantly. So we went to VW Passat Estate. Would now go to Skoda Estate. But bit confused between Octavia and Superb models - what's the difference?

 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

Ahh the good old shooting brake  as they were refered to at times in the fiftys and sixtys.......

[spamcan61]

7 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Or Bernard Cribbins and "Right Said Fred" ?

 

We've had various estate cars over 30+ years, the one we like the best was a Peugeot 405 Diesel Estate, like this:

 

 

Clocked up 200K+ miles, had enough space in the back to move whole family, holiday luggage and several dogs at the same time. At other times, bales of straw, big furniture, cages with livestock, etc, etc. Only had to change it after someone else rearranged the front and the repair was more than the residual value. Looked at the next model, the 406, but didn't like that because the sloping roof and the intrusive wheel arches reduced the available space significantly. So we went to VW Passat Estate. Would now go to Skoda Estate. But bit confused between Octavia and Superb models - what's the difference?

 

Superb is one size bigger basically, I'd say Octavia is a bit bigger than Golf and Superb is a bit bigger than Passat.

[Dunsignalling]

45 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Superb is one size bigger basically, I'd say Octavia is a bit bigger than Golf and Superb is a bit bigger than Passat.

 

AIUI, the Octavia is built on the Audi A3 platform.

[ELTEL]

On 31/10/2022 at 14:21, Stubby47 said:

https://www.carwow.co.uk/estate-cars

 

And that list excludes the Volvo V90.

And the Toyota Corolla estate 

[Rich Papper]

19 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I suspect you may have been looking at the wrong cars?

A lot of the more popular, affordable and smaller SUV's are based on or similar inside to Fiesta/Corsa/Polo sized cars, or larger Focus/Golf/Astra hatchbacks.

There are plenty of other SUV's that are very roomy inside and have more accommodation than many saloon and estate cars.

 

You're probably right - haven't looked far yet as need to get a bit more use out of the one I have. 

Photo of the MG above illustrates my point though - it's not volume of space I need, it's flat loading and length.

[fodenway]

The ultimate estate car? They were ideal for me, I had three of them. Chevrolet Caprice Wagons, I had a 1981, 87 and 86 in that order (this is the 1986 model). Eight very comfortable seats which would convert to six or three (bench front) literally in seconds, with one hand. The cargo space was immense, and the two-way tailgate with retracting window meant that long loads could be carried. Driven sensibly they would return around 25 mpg on the 5-litre models, which compared very favourably indeed against the Vauxhall Omega 2.5 V6 estate which followed them, and could only average 27.5 mpg at best from a car weighing almost a ton less and with an engine half the size.

[RANGERS]

8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

AIUI, the Octavia is built on the Audi A3 platform.

As is the Superb, both use the Volkswagen MQB platform.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

I've been looking for a new car for a while now (OK, well a second-hand car because it seems like the more sensible/cost effective choice!), so I have been watching this thread for quite a while. However, a few things have prompted a more recent in-depth look at possible replacements to my woefully underpowered Hyundai i10:

• Naturally, one of them is the development of my new layout; which will be made of four 4ft/1220mm long boards (two are 1' 4"/400mm wide, the other two are 3' 3"/1000mm wide). My current layout is 4ft long and just squeezes into the back of the i10, but the rear seats don't lie flat and can't be removed so it's a bit of a hassle/jigsaw puzzle! There's certainly no way I could fit the new layout in there!
• I'm doing far more travelling than I used to, and for further distances. The (2011 version) i10 is a basic car (at least my version is!). Things like not having an inbuilt satnav and a slightly uncomfortable ride quality are additional inconveniences; the i10 just isn't built for long motorway journeys. It's not a bad car, but I think it's time to find something slightly more capable, and with a bit more 'oomph'! Trying to overtake in a 1.2l i10 is just like watching two large lorries trying to do the same! Meanwhile, whilst borrowing my mum's car (Crossland), I can appreciate all the things in there that my car lacks...
• My job now involves lugging around a lot more gear - it would be so nice to be able to fit it all safely in the boot rather than having it roll around on (and off!) the seats.

I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about vehicles, though unknowingly, @Phil Parker seems to have conditioned me to actually enjoy the practical aspects of cars like the Citroen Berlingo rather than seeing it for the box on wheels that it's clearly inspired by! Joking aside, it seems like the perfect car; plenty of width, height, and length, and crucially, there's no bloody lip, but instead a nice level floor and side walls.

 

Until today I was instead swayed by the Ford Transit Courier. That is until my mum seemed annoyed that, being a tiny panel van, it only has two seats. I think that's a ploy to ensure that, should I need to, I can do the school run for my niece/nephew etc. Still, she is right, as there are three of us in the household, ideally a 3-seat car at minimum would be better in case we use it for holidays or tip runs etc.

 

Interestingly, looking at the local used car market for Berlingo's brings up a company selling WAV (wheelchair-accessible) modified versions. All with a ramp and sloping floor, and many with a winch. Suddenly, the thought of being able to crate up a layout and winch it up a ramp sounds very appealing! The only catch would be how much room does the winch and ramp eat into - something to check on a visit! Most versions come with 3 seats (2 in the front, 1 at the back; with the ramp slightly angled towards the right). However, other versions have the ramp squarely in the middle, and feature two of the three possible backseats. Depending on what the width and length of that ramp is, it may *just* fit the new layouts neatly within.

 

Of course, it also feels like a ramp and winch is totally OTT for what is, in reality, 4 fairly normal layout board sizes!

Anyway, enough waffling; time to do some more research!

[Phil Parker]

I love a Berlingo (so does Practical Classic deputy editor James Walshe) as it's a very, very practical vehicle. The rear seasts can be removed quickly and easily for a cavernous load space. My parents TDI version gets a million miles to the gallon and is far more fun to drive than my Peugeot 2008, especially backwards, thanks to those honking great wing mirrors.

 

If you really want practicallity, then for under a couple of grand, you can buy a lovely micro camper setup that can be dropped in the back.

 

 

From choice, I'd go for a second edition as there's slightly more leg room for the driver (less of an issue for you), and i think they are the best looking.

 

 

And yes, this is a photo from a Berlingo owners event!

 

You will struggle to find a Berlingo owner who doesn't love their car, some more than others. The HubNut people really love thiers over on YouTube.

 

As a layout/equipment lugger, they really are great. That back door protects you from the rain while loading for a start.

 

 

 

[Nick C]

50 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

I've been looking for a new car for a while now (OK, well a second-hand car because it seems like the more sensible/cost effective choice!), so I have been watching this thread for quite a while. However, a few things have prompted a more recent in-depth look at possible replacements to my woefully underpowered Hyundai i10:

• Naturally, one of them is the development of my new layout; which will be made of four 4ft/1220mm long boards (two are 1' 4"/400mm wide, the other two are 3' 3"/1000mm wide). My current layout is 4ft long and just squeezes into the back of the i10, but the rear seats don't lie flat and can't be removed so it's a bit of a hassle/jigsaw puzzle! There's certainly no way I could fit the new layout in there!
• I'm doing far more travelling than I used to, and for further distances. The (2011 version) i10 is a basic car (at least my version is!). Things like not having an inbuilt satnav and a slightly uncomfortable ride quality are additional inconveniences; the i10 just isn't built for long motorway journeys. It's not a bad car, but I think it's time to find something slightly more capable, and with a bit more 'oomph'! Trying to overtake in a 1.2l i10 is just like watching two large lorries trying to do the same! Meanwhile, whilst borrowing my mum's car (Crossland), I can appreciate all the things in there that my car lacks...
• My job now involves lugging around a lot more gear - it would be so nice to be able to fit it all safely in the boot rather than having it roll around on (and off!) the seats.

I'll be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about vehicles, though unknowingly, @Phil Parker seems to have conditioned me to actually enjoy the practical aspects of cars like the Citroen Berlingo rather than seeing it for the box on wheels that it's clearly inspired by! Joking aside, it seems like the perfect car; plenty of width, height, and length, and crucially, there's no bloody lip, but instead a nice level floor and side walls.

 

Until today I was instead swayed by the Ford Transit Courier. That is until my mum seemed annoyed that, being a tiny panel van, it only has two seats. I think that's a ploy to ensure that, should I need to, I can do the school run for my niece/nephew etc. Still, she is right, as there are three of us in the household, ideally a 3-seat car at minimum would be better in case we use it for holidays or tip runs etc.

 

Interestingly, looking at the local used car market for Berlingo's brings up a company selling WAV (wheelchair-accessible) modified versions. All with a ramp and sloping floor, and many with a winch. Suddenly, the thought of being able to crate up a layout and winch it up a ramp sounds very appealing! The only catch would be how much room does the winch and ramp eat into - something to check on a visit! Most versions come with 3 seats (2 in the front, 1 at the back; with the ramp slightly angled towards the right). However, other versions have the ramp squarely in the middle, and feature two of the three possible backseats. Depending on what the width and length of that ramp is, it may *just* fit the new layouts neatly within.

 

Of course, it also feels like a ramp and winch is totally OTT for what is, in reality, 4 fairly normal layout board sizes!

Anyway, enough waffling; time to do some more research!

You might find the WAV modified ones expensive to insure, unless you can find a specialist - generally insurance companies don't like modified vehicles. 

 

The Courier is also available as a 5 seater, I think they're branded as Tourneo rather than Transit - a colleague has one and previously had a Berlingo. There's also the Kangoo. They're all pretty similar as far as I can tell, very practical but awful to drive - though like the vans they're based on, the newer versions tend to be much better in that respect. 

 

But if you don't need the height, a traditional estate is still better IMHO, you still get the flat floor, but better handling and fuel economy. I'd be happy to measure the load bay on my 2015 Astra if you want to know how much would fit in the back, but I'm pretty sure it'll swallow that layout size quite happily...

[SouthernRegionSteam]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

I love a Berlingo (so does Practical Classic deputy editor James Walshe) as it's a very, very practical vehicle. The rear seasts can be removed quickly and easily for a cavernous load space.

Yes, the removable seats was something I picked up on and with a big sigh of relief. There's nothing worse than trying to put a layout into a car where the seats don't sit flat and can't be removed; the friction against the fabric on the back, even on a small layout like Sandy Shores, makes it 10x more difficult than it needs to be. You then end up having to stack the layout on boxes and whatever else you can until you've formed a tower that the makers of Jenga would be proud of! Anyway, I looked up the stats dimension-wise and I think even the medium size (compared to the only other size, the XL 🤷‍♂️ ) Berlingo is bigger than the Transit Courier I was looking at. Pretty impressive!

 

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

If you really want practicallity, then for under a couple of grand, you can buy a lovely micro camper setup that can be dropped in the back.

 

Now you're talking! Though knowing me; I'd probably end up designing my own - I do love designing stuff like that. In fact, I was already thinking of what unit(s) I would make to go on one side of the Courier should I have bought one! Oh, and I've just noticed what looks to be a slide-out chopping board under the gas stove in your image? Amazing!

 

Another interesting addition I saw in one listing was for what I can only describe as internal roof bars - supposedly for things like snowboards and oars (as you do). Personally, I can imagine, depending on weight capacity, it being useful for long, light lengths of PSE softwood etc...

 

Good point also about the boot being used as a rain shield whilst unloading (or camping, I suppose!)

 

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

You might find the WAV modified ones expensive to insure, unless you can find a specialist - generally insurance companies don't like modified vehicles.

Good advice, thanks for that heads-up!

 

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

The Courier is also available as a 5 seater, I think they're branded as Tourneo rather than Transit - a colleague has one and previously had a Berlingo. There's also the Kangoo. They're all pretty similar as far as I can tell, very practical but awful to drive - though like the vans they're based on, the newer versions tend to be much better in that respect. 

Ah found it, yes, the Tourneo Connect. I think I looked at it a few months back, but yes, this is definitely a contender. I'll do some more digging!
Reviews also picked up on the fact that newer ones (Berlingos and Couriers) were better to drive. I'm quite surprised by how positive people feel about some versions of the Berlingo in terms of drivability, too. I assumed they would be a bit 'lumpy' but it doesn't seem to be the case for many people/models

 

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

But if you don't need the height, a traditional estate is still better IMHO, you still get the flat floor, but better handling and fuel economy. I'd be happy to measure the load bay on my 2015 Astra if you want to know how much would fit in the back, but I'm pretty sure it'll swallow that layout size quite happily...

.

I worked out that with the Courier I could just about get all the boards stacked atop one another against one wall, leaving a 400mm wide space that is full-height and full-length on the opposite side for all the extra bits and bobs. I think the height is very useful; particularly in terms of getting stuff in/out, though thank you for your offer. Also, as Phil says, it would be easy to find other uses for the spacious insides of the Berlingo and its ilk!

 

Much to ponder over...

Edited January 12, 2023 by SouthernRegionSteam

[Nick C]

YouTube is the place to look for camper conversions - there's loads on there for almost every type of van and almost every circumstance...

Edited January 12, 2023 by Nick C

[fulton]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

 

The Courier is also available as a 5 seater, I think they're branded as Tourneo rather than Transit - 

The Tourneo is based on the Transit Connect, the next size up from the Transit Courier, I have the long wheel base Connect, my version is an automatic with all the toys you find in an upmarket car, drives well and comfortable, regularly drive to Germany and have a long trip in May to the Polish Baltic coast.

[Phil Parker]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

They're all pretty similar as far as I can tell, very practical but awful to drive - though like the vans they're based on, the newer versions tend to be much better in that respect. 

 

Rubbish. The Berlingo is nippy and agile. A proper car might be slightly more relaxing over long distances, but I have plentyof long runs under my belt too and its fine.  

[SouthernRegionSteam]

12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Rubbish. The Berlingo is nippy and agile. A proper car might be slightly more relaxing over long distances, but I have plentyof long runs under my belt too and its fine.  

Honestly, after my i10, I would be happy with even a mild improvement; but seeing as most Berlingos are 1.6+l engines (and also based on positive reviews), I'm very confident they would be a lot more fun to drive! To say your foot touches the floor and nothing really happens in my i10 is not far off the truth; and also quite scary when you realise you've understimated just how much power there is available whilst overtaking even relatively slow moving vehicles. So yeah... anything with just a little more power would be so nice!

Whilst I'll always go with a manual car, one thing I wondered about is petrol vs diesel. I've always had a petrol car, but diesel seems to win in terms of reviews for Berlingos, so I'm guessing that's a safe bet? I'd just have to really stop and think when filling up in case... well... I need not explain!

Edited January 12, 2023 by SouthernRegionSteam

[big jim]

59 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Honestly, after my i10, I would be happy with even a mild improvement;

 

To say your foot touches the floor and nothing really happens in my i10 is not far off the truth; and also quite scary when you realise you've understimated just how much power there is available whilst overtaking even relatively slow moving vehicles.

 

I’ve just driven an i10 hire car back from Doncaster to crewe, last couple of weeks I’ve had corsa’s, an Audi and a Ford puma, the i10 was certainly ‘different!’ 
 

Thankfully it’s going tomorrow and I’m back into my Audi hire car for next week 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by big jim

[SRman]

Further to my post from 2nd November 2022, while trawling through some old files on my train room computer after upgrading it, I found a photo of my previous Holden Commodore wagon, a 1994 model that I only kept for 8 years. It was versatile for load carrying, as all the wagons and utes were built on a longer wheelbase.

The coach was actually our very comfortable accommodation at End of the Line, a little outside of Daylesford, here in Victoria.

 

[Nick C]

10 hours ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Whilst I'll always go with a manual car, one thing I wondered about is petrol vs diesel. I've always had a petrol car, but diesel seems to win in terms of reviews for Berlingos, so I'm guessing that's a safe bet? I'd just have to really stop and think when filling up in case... well... I need not explain!

It depends on the kind of driving you tend to do - if it's mostly shorter journeys, around town etc, get a petrol. If it's mainly longer journeys (which from what you've said it sounds like), get a Diesel. As these are van based, they're going to be geared around the Diesel version anyway (the vast majority of vans are Diesel)

[DCMarvel]

I love estate cars, my current is a 2012 Focus which has plenty of room in the back with the seats down and pretty much every bell and whistle possible including automatic parking and the absolutely brilliant heated windscreen.
The Honda Civic (space age shape) has probably even more as the boot is really low floor inside matched by the folded rear seats.
Probably the most space is either a Mondeo or a Skoda Octavia.
I know a chap who is into model railways big time and he swears by the Berlingo.

As a motorcycle rider I hate diesels and the fuel spillages they seen to leave everywhere and always swore I would never have one, but I have had several over recent years and until recently when diesel price has risen considerably more than petrol, would recommend them as long journeys are more economical and short ones no less economical than petrol, the only down side is they are slower to warm up if you can't get going and give them some work to do, unlike petrol that will warm up idling.

[Guest]

I'm going to class my Smart ForFour as an estate since the seats fold to provide a perfectly flat load space and there is no load-lip (because the boot floor is at waist height).

[SteveyDee68]

Not an estate car, but the Toyota Prius+ is the seven seater version of their original hybrid Prius but is longer … 

 

I bought a second hand one from the local dealer after having driven a Toyota Verso (7 seater) for 9 years from new - one look and I could see the load space in the Prius+ was bigger and with the rear seats down …

 

I used to move an 88 weighted-key piano keyboard inside a flight case in it, an item which was longer (and a hell of a lot heavier) than the usual 4’ long baseboard - it fitted inside with room to spare!

 

I loved my Prius+ and changed it after the pandemic only because the only financially viable way for me to continue owning a car was to sell it and buy a brand new one! (It turned out I had misunderstood how the payment holiday offered during the pandemic - when I had virtually no income - worked, in that I was not going to continue paying for a further six months after the end date of the agreement - oh no, on that day the finance company demanded the final payment, plus the outstanding six months of payments … to refinance the vehicle and continue owning it, I would need to pay a fee plus three months of payments (as they could only carry over three months into a new agreement); I had literally started a new job that week and had nothing in the bank! It was cheaper to part exchange my Prius+ against a new car and put a deposit down that could be paid in stages as my car wasn’t due for four months!)

 

I now drive a Yaris X crossover - hybrid, and effectively a Yaris with a beefier body, but it was the only vehicle they had in my budget that had a flat load space when the seats were dropped down…
 

I can still fit my new 88-key keyboard in the Yaris X, albeit in a soft carry case rather than the flight case, but it is a little tight.

 

Prius+ models are very popular with taxi drivers, especially any regularly doing airport runs. Shame that Toyota have discontinued the model, as it had plenty of space and was a dream to drive*
 

HOURS OF FUN

 

 

* The Toyota salesman told me how with a full battery charge and set to “performance” drive mode that it could leave a sports car standing; I only once had the chance to try this out, when a boy racer in a flash Mazda tailgated me (because he couldn’t pass) until we reached some lights where he pulled up alongside me and sat revving his engine - noticing I had a full battery, I thought “why not?” and popped the performance mode button. It was a question of simply putting my foot to the floor when the lights went green … being electric, the car shot off immediately leaving the boy racer still letting out his clutch into first gear! By the time he had recovered from the shock of being left standing by a Prius - a Prius, for goodness sake! - I had passed through the next set of lights and had the satisfaction of seeing them change to red and trap him behind me! Didn’t see him again, but I am sure his driving ‘street cred’ felt a little bruised!