TheTalkinLens' North Eastern Railway workbench

[Emery Hill Station]

17 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

I've been working on two N.E.R. diagram K1 cattle wagons the last few weeks. One an un-started example in D&S packaging and another fully built, but in need of a refurb and some tlc. I had only intended to do the rescue job, but thought it would be an interesting exercise to compare it to a fresh out of the box build.

 

Here is the rescue job as purchased. It's in LNER livery, with clasp brake shoes, westinghouse and vacuum pipes on the headstocks. The paint is very thickly applied loosing a lot of the casting detail. Overall, it's been built well (soldered), but finished poorly.

 

So time to start taking things apart. The roof although the right size had not been glued in place well. The floor has been taken out, but this will go back in later...

 

With all none metal parts removed, a thick coating of paint stripper left overnight to soak in. I repeated this three times...

 

With the bulk of the paint stripped, the fitted details have been taken off the headstocks and the clasp brake shoes removed. The three links were a bit chunky so these have also been removed. I intend to use screw link anyway. The end hand rails were missing, so these have been added, plus some single side brake shoes to make this a none fitted example.

 

Now to the fresh out of the box model. Little to say about this other than it went together very easily.

 

And here are the pair together ready for painting...

 

And then painted, transfers applied and Smiths screw link couplings fitted. The question is, is it possible to tell which is the rescue job? Any guesses?

 

I intend to weather these and then add white paint on the two bottom planks along the sides to represent lime wash.

 

 

 

I think that the one on the right is the rescue job, but the only way I could tell was the underframe detailing being different between the two

[thetalkinlens]

6 hours ago, Emery Hill Station said:

I think that the one on the right is the rescue job, but the only way I could tell was the underframe detailing being different between the two

 

Correct! Though the underframe detail is the same on both, just one wagon is the opposite way round in the picture so the single side brake shoes are on the far side on 23130.

[thetalkinlens]

This week I've been working on this N.E.R. weight hut, which closely resembles that at Aysgarth in Wensleydale. I built one to the same drawings in brick last year.

 

 

The downpipe fittings and chimney pot are from Modelu

 

From the rear...

 

And here it is next to the brick version. I have plans for both...

[Rumblestripe]

In 2012 the Wensleydale Railway held an Open Day at Aysgarth Station. Since then I believe that the station is now in private ownership so the prospect of that happening again would appear remote. Anywho, here a few of the photographs I took of the Weighbridge:

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously a little late for your model! There was a "Gallery" album on here with some of the photographs I took. It looks like the photographs have disappeared from the album. I still have all the photos I took that day so if someone knows how I could reload them I could copy them back in full resolution. 

[thetalkinlens]

52 minutes ago, Rumblestripe said:

In 2012 the Wensleydale Railway held an Open Day at Aysgarth Station. Since then I believe that the station is now in private ownership so the prospect of that happening again would appear remote. Anywho, here a few of the photographs I took of the Weighbridge:

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously a little late for your model! There was a "Gallery" album on here with some of the photographs I took. It looks like the photographs have disappeared from the album. I still have all the photos I took that day so if someone knows how I could reload them I could copy them back in full resolution. 

 

Thanks for posting these pictures @Rumblestripe, I had managed to find a few through Google searches for reference, but not of all angles including the rear. It's great that Aysgarth for the most part has unaltered structures.

[thetalkinlens]

I've got three Slater's Midland Railway wagons on my workbench at the moment:

1. D299 open
2. D357 8 ton covered
3. Large cattle (I don't have the diagram to hand for this one)

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with numbers. To save extra effort I'd like to use one's off the transfer sheet supplied by Slaters, but I'm unsure which number go for which wagon. Here's a list of the numbers I have to use:

 

55002
5044
39916
20639
20850
28705
31919
23104
23675
35364
116096

 

Does anyone know what these would go on?

[WFPettigrew]

15 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

numbers

paging @Compound2632!

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

paging @Compound2632!

 

3 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

I've got three Slater's Midland Railway wagons on my workbench at the moment:

1. D299 open
2. D357 8 ton covered
3. Large cattle (I don't have the diagram to hand for this one)

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with numbers. To save extra effort I'd like to use one's off the transfer sheet supplied by Slaters, but I'm unsure which number go for which wagon. Here's a list of the numbers I have to use:

 

55002
5044
39916
20639
20850
28705
31919
23104
23675
35364
116096

 

Does anyone know what these would go on?

 

I have a very large spreadsheet...

 

... which doesn't include 55002!

 

5044 is a D305 lowside wagon of lot 84, the subject of an official photo Dy6449 - many detail differences compared to the Slaters kit.

 

39916 is an open goods wagon reported missing in 1917, likely D299.

 

20639 and 20850 are D378 covered fruit vans of lot 370 - not a type done by Slaters.

 

28705 is not in my list.

 

31919 is  D363 10-ton covered goods wagon of lot 824 or later.

 

23104 was recorded as a cattle wagon in 1877; it is possible that a D296 large cattle wagon of the 1905 type done by Slaters carried this number, as a second or third generation renewal.

 

23675 is a D360 covered goods wagon with passenger undergear - doable by using the underframe of the Slaters D361 fruit van with the body of the D362/3 van.

 

35364 is a D361 covered goods / fruit van.

 

116096 is a D382 tarrif van, not done by Slaters.

 

So, a useless set of numbers as far as you are concerned.

 

I suggest:

 

D357: 14243, 24553, 35268 as matching the Slaters kit with grease axleboxes.

 

D296: 14411, 17902, 23159, 27959 as being of the Slaters type of post 1905 cattle wagon.

 

D299: around 75,000 out of 120,000 Midland wagons were of this typeby c. 1902 though the number declined steadily in the 20th century. So you've a 60% chance of picking a right one! Most were in the range 43000 - 109000. Some examples:

22825

43468

55409

57684

60379

79104

88981

97038

106513

113614

122000

124124

138073

I've picked examples known from photos mostly taken after the Great War. Note that it is very unlikely that any D299 wagons ever received brakes on both sides; photos as late as the 2930s show them still with brakes on one side only, as built.

Likewise the D357 covered goods wagons though some were built with Morton brakes, a good number with both levers at the same end originally, though this was probably changed.

Cattle wagons, and Midland wagons built from 1909 onwards generally, had independent brakes on both sides but wagons built 1905 - 1909 probably had Morton brakes. So this is something that may depend on the period you are modelling.

 

Hope that helps, happy to try to answer any other questions about Midland wagons and wagon numbering!

[Darryl Tooley]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

23104

is a typo.  The number, and numberplate, provided on the Slaters transfer sheet is 23014.  According to Essery, in the instructions and the standard reference work, this was a cattle van of the type made by Slaters, with guard rails through the framing and a tare of 6.5.2.

 

D

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Darryl Tooley said:

is a typo.  The number, and numberplate, provided on the Slaters transfer sheet is 23014.  According to Essery, in the instructions and the standard reference work, this was a cattle van of the type made by Slaters, with guard rails through the framing and a tare of 6.5.2.

 

Yes indeed:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 64130.]

 

Looking very closely, I think this is one with Morton cam brake levers at the same end on both sides, indicating it was built c. 1905-7. See my article in Midland Railway Society Journal No. 85 (Autumn 2024).

 

41 minutes ago, Darryl Tooley said:

the standard reference work

 

I'm working on that...

 

[thetalkinlens]

Many thanks for the detailed reply @Compound2632. I'll have a good look through and possibly get back to you with some more questions, but really appreciated the time you've put into your reply.

 

@Darryl Tooley Thanks, yes well spotted and flagged. The D296 cattle wagon I have has 78901 on both body sides, 85647 on one plate and 23014 on the other. A right muddled mix! I think as one plate number is correct, I might well go with 23014 for the identity consistently. It's got right hand levers on both sides rather than a right and a left, but I think that detail will have to stay.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, thetalkinlens said:

It's got right hand levers on both sides rather than a right and a left, but I think that detail will have to stay.

 

What date are you modelling?

[Darryl Tooley]

17 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

well spotted

It helps that my own model of 23014, first built just after the kit came out, which was a while ago now, has lately been back into works to have the guard rails put in the right place and the moveable partition added.

 

And now, it seems, the brakegear is wrong as well.  Hey-ho.

 

D

[thetalkinlens]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What date are you modelling?

 

The Edwardian period; 1900 to 1914, with a bit of allowance to go towards 1923 if there's something I would like in the collection.

Edited September 18 by thetalkinlens

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

The Edwardian period; 1900 to 1914, with a bit of allowance to go towards 1923 if there's something I would like in the collection.

 

Hum. I don't know when the left-handed Morton brake levers were changed for the right-handed ones with reversing cam, on those wagons built with the left-handed lever. Not enough good photos of cattle wagons in service in the pre-Great War period - for some incomprehensible reason the photographers of the day were more interested in locomotives.

[thetalkinlens]

@Compound2632 Is it correct to have the van number on the door of the D357 van as per the Slater's instructions or would it have just had the numberplate on the solebar? I've selected 35268 as the number to use on this and will take the Slaters 35364 plate and adjust the numbers.

 

Is there a photo of 35268?

 

Here's how far I've got it so far:

 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, thetalkinlens said:

@Compound2632 Is it correct to have the van number on the door of the D357 van as per the Slater's instructions or would it have just had the numberplate on the solebar? I've selected 35268 as the number to use on this and will take the Slaters 35364 plate and adjust the numbers.

 

Is there a photo of 35268?

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60104.]

 

Unfortunately this is one of the Midland Railway Study Centre's photographs held at the Kidderminster Railway Museum, so I don't have access to a higher resolution scan, Fortunately, it is magnificently reproduced as a double page spread in Midland Record No. 31, pp. 90-91. It is unattributed there but is a Derby official, DY12484, entered in the register with date 2 April 1922, a Sunday, so probably taken in the preceding week. "Nottingham, Basford Goods Depot Gas Works sidings."

 

The photo shows the number in the usual position on the second plank down from the top of the door; I'm not entirely sure when the number started being painted there: after 1893, possibly by 1896, certainly by c. 1900. 

 

The photo shows grease axleboxes and the numberplate in the position per your model. However, if you will forgive my obsession with brakes, there is only one vee-hanger visible, mounted on the rear face of the solebar. This indicates that there is a cross-shaft, and hence Morton clutch brake levers. We're looking at the side with the brake blocks , so the lever faces the right as usual. There are almost certainly not brake blocks on the other side but whether it has the left-facing lever or right-facing lever with reversing cam is frustratingly unknowable!

 

This one has a couple of brackets supporting the door runner - compare Midland Wagons Vol. 1 plates 181-3 - I'm not sure if these wagons were built with them or they were retrofitted; they were fitted from new to covered goods wagons built 1920, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 plate 194.

 

A more obvious detail is the full-length rainstrips.

 

And it's travelling - being shunted presumably - with the door open!

[65179]

On 18/09/2024 at 14:24, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I have a very large spreadsheet...

 

... which doesn't include 55002!

 

5044 is a D305 lowside wagon of lot 84, the subject of an official photo Dy6449 - many detail differences compared to the Slaters kit.

 

39916 is an open goods wagon reported missing in 1917, likely D299.

 

20639 and 20850 are D378 covered fruit vans of lot 370 - not a type done by Slaters.

 

28705 is not in my list.

 

31919 is  D363 10-ton covered goods wagon of lot 824 or later.

 

23104 was recorded as a cattle wagon in 1877; it is possible that a D296 large cattle wagon of the 1905 type done by Slaters carried this number, as a second or third generation renewal.

 

23675 is a D360 covered goods wagon with passenger undergear - doable by using the underframe of the Slaters D361 fruit van with the body of the D362/3 van.

 

35364 is a D361 covered goods / fruit van.

 

116096 is a D382 tarrif van, not done by Slaters.

 

So, a useless set of numbers as far as you are concerned.

 

I suggest:

 

D357: 14243, 24553, 35268 as matching the Slaters kit with grease axleboxes.

 

D296: 14411, 17902, 23159, 27959 as being of the Slaters type of post 1905 cattle wagon.

 

D299: around 75,000 out of 120,000 Midland wagons were of this typeby c. 1902 though the number declined steadily in the 20th century. So you've a 60% chance of picking a right one! Most were in the range 43000 - 109000. Some examples:

22825

43468

55409

57684

60379

79104

88981

97038

106513

113614

122000

124124

138073

I've picked examples known from photos mostly taken after the Great War. Note that it is very unlikely that any D299 wagons ever received brakes on both sides; photos as late as the 2930s show them still with brakes on one side only, as built.

Likewise the D357 covered goods wagons though some were built with Morton brakes, a good number with both levers at the same end originally, though this was probably changed.

Cattle wagons, and Midland wagons built from 1909 onwards generally, had independent brakes on both sides but wagons built 1905 - 1909 probably had Morton brakes. So this is something that may depend on the period you are modelling.

 

Hope that helps, happy to try to answer any other questions about Midland wagons and wagon numbering!

 

Presumably this D299 has received brakes on both sides?

 

 

Regards,

Simon

 

Edited September 20 by 65179

[thetalkinlens]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 60104.]

 

Unfortunately this is one of the Midland Railway Study Centre's photographs held at the Kidderminster Railway Museum, so I don't have access to a higher resolution scan, Fortunately, it is magnificently reproduced as a double page spread in Midland Record No. 31, pp. 90-91. It is unattributed there but is a Derby official, DY12484, entered in the register with date 2 April 1922, a Sunday, so probably taken in the preceding week. "Nottingham, Basford Goods Depot Gas Works sidings."

 

The photo shows the number in the usual position on the second plank down from the top of the door; I'm not entirely sure when the number started being painted there: after 1893, possibly by 1896, certainly by c. 1900. 

 

The photo shows grease axleboxes and the numberplate in the position per your model. However, if you will forgive my obsession with brakes, there is only one vee-hanger visible, mounted on the rear face of the solebar. This indicates that there is a cross-shaft, and hence Morton clutch brake levers. We're looking at the side with the brake blocks , so the lever faces the right as usual. There are almost certainly not brake blocks on the other side but whether it has the left-facing lever or right-facing lever with reversing cam is frustratingly unknowable!

 

This one has a couple of brackets supporting the door runner - compare Midland Wagons Vol. 1 plates 181-3 - I'm not sure if these wagons were built with them or they were retrofitted; they were fitted from new to covered goods wagons built 1920, Midland Wagons Vol. 1 plate 194.

 

A more obvious detail is the full-length rainstrips.

 

And it's travelling - being shunted presumably - with the door open!

 

Great thanks for another detailed reply, it is most appreciated. So I probably need to try adding the rain strips using some Plastruct or Evergreen strip (0.5mm square?). Is there a technique to adding this in a consistent arc? I've done strips going crossways in a straight line before, but not arced rain strips.

 

The brake shoes and lever setup sounds a bit uncertain, so I suspect I'll leave it as the kit comes.

 

For the D299 open, I've opted for the one reported "missing"; 39916. Despite not being certain of it being a D299, I quite like the mystery behind it.

 

The D296 cattle truck is going to be 23014.

 

I will hopefully get round to a few photos of these wagons as they come together.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Presumably this D299 has received brakes on both sides?

 

 

Yes, the 1,000 8 ton D299 wagons built during the Great War were built with brakes on both sides and the extra vertical side strapping, conforming to the 10 ton wagons that had become standard. They were built because of a shortage of wheelsets suitable for 10 tons.

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, thetalkinlens said:

 So I probably need to try adding the rain strips using some Plastruct or Evergreen strip (0.5mm square?). Is there a technique to adding this in a consistent arc? I've done strips going crossways in a straight line before, but not arced strips.

 

I have used Slaters 10 thou by 20 thou microstrip, largely because it was what I had to hand. A tiny dab of Mekpak or whatever your favoured solvent is, at the mid-point, with the strip standing on its narrow side. Then a dab to fix the strip at either end - It should take up a natural curve. Then allow solvent to flow along the whole length. Tweezers help, at least for the first step.

Edited September 21 by Compound2632
Microchip not microchip!

[thetalkinlens]

Here is the first of the three Midland wagons I've been working on this week, the Diagram 299 open.

 

A look at how it was to begin with...

 

Not bad at all . However, something going on with the R transfer. Plus there were no transfers at all on the other side and I decided the finish was too dark a grey. The three link couplings fitted were also not the best.

 

So opted to rub it back and repaint entirely, apply new transfers and replace the couplings.

 

Here is how it looks now, repainted inside and out and transfers applied with some Smith's three link couplings fitted...

 

As can be seen it has changed from 55002 to 39916, the open which went "missing" in 1917.

 

Looking at the photo, I've spotted a bit of touching up to do on the solebar, then I can give it a coat of matt varnish and apply some weathering powders.

Edited September 21 by thetalkinlens

[thetalkinlens]

Here is the second MR wagon I've been looking at. I've done very little to this one. It already has Smiths couplings and I decided not to repaint it. It did have three different numbers, one on the body (both sides), and then two different ones on the plates. So I've made it consistent now and it has 23014 everywhere.

 

[thetalkinlens]

And here is the third MR wagon, the diagram 357. It was already built with couplings fitted, but hadn't been painted. So I've painted it up and applied transfers to give it the identity of 35268. I've also added Plastruct 0.5 x 0.3mm strip to the roof for the rain strips. Many thanks to @Compound2632 on the informative replies on these three wagons and particular this one.

 

 

Finally a photo of all three lined up while the D299 and D357 await some weathering.

Edited September 25 by thetalkinlens