Hornby Dublo 2023 Flying Scotsman.

[adb968008]

45 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Maybe the one in best condition should have been saved and all the visible "FS" bits swapped over?😆

Is there anything original on it ?

 

If you look at its failure rate before 2003, and since its 2011 overhaul, I think that speaks volumes.

To me it never seemed right after the Australia trip.

Edited October 17, 2022 by adb968008

[Hilux5972]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Is there anything original on it ?

 

If you look at its failure rate before 2003, and since its 2011 overhaul, I think that speaks volumes.

To me it never seemed right after the Australia trip.

There always was the blaming her rough riding on the atrocious track conditions in Aus. 

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

There always was the blaming her rough riding on the atrocious track conditions in Aus. 

To be fair, a lot of locos preserved in the 1960’s were preserved based on their opinion of good condition, a standard based on a BR overhaul, which in the 1960’s (indeed post war) wasnt the really the highest standard, more of “it’ll do” or “it’ll get 10 more years”, often as there was an assumption in 10 years it would be game over as preservation wouldnt have the skills to do it.

 

It was really only in the later 1980’s when Barry overhauls, which required considerable new parts that the quality and overall finish rose. Several early days preservation efforts have since required huge amounts spent today to return them to the levels of quality we see now, including major parts renewals, not just Scotsman.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by adb968008

[RichardT]

22 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

I absolutely agree. Since technically the nation owns it, anyone should be allowed to visit at no cost! 

I must try that line of argument on LNER when I travel with them tomorrow.

 

RichardT

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

often as there was an assumption in 10 years it would be game over as preservation wouldnt have the skills to do it.

This. 

 

Flying Scotsman wasn't chosen for preservation as part of any plan for a national collection.  No A3 was to be officially preserved.  Instead it was bought direct out of service by a rich man as his toy, with a contract with BR to overhaul it and then to run it for another ten years or so, after which I suspect everyone thought it would be retired to static display.  Instead, as the ten year deadline approached the rich man got the idea that he could make money out of the loco by shipping it to the USA with an exhibition train, overstayed his welcome and his money* after which the loco fell into the hands of several "rescuers", the later bunches of whom all found that they couldn't make money out of it, but had a good go at grinding it into the ground in the process, and then came up with the "curse of Scotsman" b*ll*cks as a way of explaining their incompetence.

 

RichardT

 

*This is the only "bankruptcy" associated with FS - it doesn't hold any "records" in this area.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by RichardT
Spelling

[adb968008]

I think with hindsight, the selection of several locos for preservation direct from BR would have been  different had the buyers known that skills would be available in the future.

I recall thin tyres  were a reason for avoidance, even though things like the boiler were sound.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by adb968008

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Is there anything original on it ?

 

 

Considering it did 40 or so years pounding up and down the ECML, very little.

How many miles?. 2 million?

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, RichardT said:

This. 

 

after which the loco fell into the hands of several "rescuers", the later bunches of whom all found that they couldn't make money out of it, but had a good go at grinding it into the ground in the process, and then came up with the "curse of Scotsman" b*ll*cks as a way of explaining their incompetence.

 

However when reading the magazines, the costs associated with repairs of this loco, back in the 1980’s/90’s always seemed to me to read as proportionately higher than other locos.

Though admittedly 6100, 850 also seemed to eat much and deliver less.

i remeber 6100 at Llangollen, it was so unwell even its paint faded. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I think with hindsight, the selection of several locos for preservation direct from BR would have been  different had the buyers known that skills would be available in the future.

I recall thin tyres  were a reason for avoidance, even though things like the boiler were sound.

 

And thin tyres were still being avoided in the 1980s.  Certain locos which might have seen a very well received return to steam for GW 150 were ruled out because of thin tyres.

[Robin Brasher]

You will be pleased to see that the 'Flying Scotsman' arrived at Swanage Station at 11:53 this morning so there will be a prototype for a model of it hauling some green coaches.

[Jammy2305]

Apologies if I'm duplicating with this post but I notice Hornby have made a small mistake on their website by stating that "the locomotive in question, number 1472, was originally outshopped from the GNR’s Doncaster Works as a class A1 with GNR colouring, lettering and numbering before being renumbered and named in 1924 to promote the LNER’s Flying Scotsman service."

 

As nice as it would be to see Hornby finally produce a GNR A1 (hint hint), No.1472 was outshopped in LNER livery, hence the model they are producing of it as 1472 with L&NER on the tender.

 

- James

[scots region]

I really don't understand why no one in Hornby has ever thought to make an Alan Pegler 4472 until now. A main range one would've practically levitated out of the shops.   

Edited October 19, 2022 by scots region

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Jammy2305 said:

As nice as it would be to see Hornby finally produce a GNR A1 (hint hint),

I’m astonished that Hornby haven’t yet produced a model of 1470 or 1471 as a GNR A1.  Would be nice if Dapol also did one in N, but there’s more to do there: in their latest set of releases they’re offering what I think is a completely fictitious model: FS in LNER apple green numbered 4472 with an A3 boiler with a round dome and LH drive, described by Dapol as an “A1”…

 

RichardT

[Hilux5972]

11 minutes ago, RichardT said:

I’m astonished that Hornby haven’t yet produced a model of 1470 or 1471 as a GNR A1.  

Agreed. Even the R2405 Great Northern No.1470N was in LNER livery

[eldomtom2]

On 17/10/2022 at 12:32, adb968008 said:

Is there anything original on it ?

I believe the NRM's opinion is that the rear two thirds of the frames at least are original, along with some other stuff that I can't remember quite now.

 

And of course, there's probably a lot more on it that predates 1963...

[didcot]

On 17/10/2022 at 12:32, adb968008 said:

Is there anything original on it ?

I seem to remember a number of Frame Stretchers and the like had to be replaced by Riley & Son's during the last overhaul. There were all sorts of issues with the work done by I think the NRM, I may be wrong on that though. I think some if not all the issues were attributed to its time in Tony Marchington's ownership. The middle cylinder was bored out to match the outers and the increased output caused the frame issue. Well something like that as reported by the Steam Beano.

 

[Hilux5972]

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

I believe the NRM's opinion is that the rear two thirds of the frames at least are original, along with some other stuff that I can't remember quite now.

 

And of course, there's probably a lot more on it that predates 1963...

Surely the nameplates would be original too? 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Surely the nameplates would be original too? 

Sold in 2003.

resold since

https://www.gwra.co.uk/flying-scotsman-nameplate-auction.html

 

The ones on it are replicas, they might even be replicas of replicas.

 

i recall it having a Yellow backed car registration plate, with the number 98772 on the footplate ( its tops number) too.

Edited October 18, 2022 by adb968008

[eldomtom2]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Sold in 2003.

resold since

https://www.gwra.co.uk/flying-scotsman-nameplate-auction.html

 

The ones on it are replicas, they might even be replicas of replicas.

 

i recall it having a Yellow backed car registration plate, with the number 98772 on the footplate ( its tops number) too.

Though even those weren't the 1923 originals.

[HonestTom]

17 hours ago, didcot said:

I seem to remember a number of Frame Stretchers and the like had to be replaced by Riley & Son's during the last overhaul. There were all sorts of issues with the work done by I think the NRM, I may be wrong on that though. I think some if not all the issues were attributed to its time in Tony Marchington's ownership. The middle cylinder was bored out to match the outers and the increased output caused the frame issue. Well something like that as reported by the Steam Beano.

 

What is "Steam Beano?"

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

What is "Steam Beano?"

https://www.steamrailway.co.uk/

[didcot]

Tony Marchington tried to sell the originals nameplates in an auction that also had a lot of his traction engines and the like in it. There was a bit of an outcry at the time and I think the auctioneers refused to sell them as they should have been with the engine. As the article linked further up says he sold them privately. 

Tony was a nice chap. His Buxworth Steam Group used to run the Newbury Show on the first May Bank Holidays. They always used to look after us. We'd spend an hour or so giving Joe public a ride and a steer of an engine. In return we had beer tokens for the beer tent. I suspect he spread himself rather thin money wise and Scotsman didn't help. He actually bought the engine I helped look after which was a bit of a shock.

Edited October 19, 2022 by didcot

[G-BOAF]

On 17/10/2022 at 23:55, adb968008 said:

I think with hindsight, the selection of several locos for preservation direct from BR would have been  different had the buyers known that skills would be available in the future.

I recall thin tyres  were a reason for avoidance, even though things like the boiler were sound.

 

I believe 60024 Kingfisher was rejected for preservation because of tyres, Bittern was chosen instead but of course then itself sidelined for decades due to a cracked frame!

Edited October 19, 2022 by G-BOAF

[Guest]

On 17/10/2022 at 23:42, RichardT said:

This. 

 

Flying Scotsman wasn't chosen for preservation as part of any plan for a national collection.  No A3 was to be officially preserved.  Instead it was bought direct out of service by a rich man as his toy, with a contract with BR to overhaul it and then to run it for another ten years or so, after which I suspect everyone thought it would be retired to static display.  Instead, as the ten year deadline approached the rich man got the idea that he could make money out of the loco by shipping it to the USA with an exhibition train, overstayed his welcome and his money* after which the loco fell into the hands of several "rescuers", the later bunches of whom all found that they couldn't make money out of it, but had a good go at grinding it into the ground in the process, and then came up with the "curse of Scotsman" b*ll*cks as a way of explaining their incompetence.

 

Richard T

 

*This is the only "bankruptcy" associated with FS - it doesn't hold any "records" in this area.

 

 

I remember as a small child going to see FS at Steamtown, Carnforth (when the place was still open to the public) and riding behind it back and forth along a demonstration track with two coaches in tow, and can recall how excited I felt at the time! But of course if that were now I would be a little concerned, with it being used in such a way (not to mention how undignifying it would look!). Having a small tank engine for that purpose is one thing, but being a large express engine, couldn't have done much good. Little wonder why it ended up such a state prior to its overhaul.  

Edited October 23, 2022 by Guest

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, R. Knowles said:

I remember as a small child going to FS at Steamtown, Carnforth (when the place was still open to the public) and riding behind it back and forth along a demonstration track with two coaches in tow, an recall how excited I felt at the time! But of course if that were now I would be a little concerned, with it being used in such a way. Being able to do that with a small tank engine is one thing but with a large express engine, it couldn't have been good on its bearings. Little wonder why it would end up such a state, prior to its overhaul.  

 

That's something it would have done day in, day out in its normal working though. 

 

Pottering about in shed and station environs would be part of its life. Going to get turned, coaling, watering, dropping the ash, going over inspection pits, etc.

 

Nothing that would cause excessive wear and tear. Sending it halfway around the world on two separate occasions and then flogging it to death travelling across two continents in extreme climates didn't do it any favours.

 

 

Jason