Hornby announce TT:120

[Gresley-4498]

On 20/08/2024 at 21:06, steve1023 said:

I realise it’s not Hornby but as this is where most of the TT chat is ATD models have released a couple of card kits for TT - a single road diesel depot, 1970s office block and some general sheets. I made the office block in N a few weeks ago and I was really happy with it. I’m nowt to do with ATD, just a consumer. 

 

Any pictures of the kit's / results?

[steve1023]

Hi. Sorry, not right now as I am not in the country.

 

Steve

[montyburns56]

On 24/08/2024 at 00:58, Gresley-4498 said:

 

Any pictures of the kit's / results?

 

They have a website here...

 

https://www.atdmodels.co.uk/tt-scale-1-120

[Gresley-4498]

7 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

 

They have a website here...

 

https://www.atdmodels.co.uk/tt-scale-1-120

 

Yep  they look good - pasted a few examples for ease of reading.

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

Theres a commentary on TT:120 by Simon Kolher in the current Model Rail typically whitewhasing history.  Apparently, otherthan than Revolution now, none of the big boys have shown any history, when in fact Hornby killed off Heljans plans by duplicating them.

[Hobby]

Not that old chestnut again! Hornby didn't kill off Heljan's plans, they could have carried on with it, and if Hornby's launches so far is anything to go by would have got it in production before Hornby. But that doesn't suit the Hornby knockers, does it.

Edited September 1 by Hobby

[nickb4141]

I don’t want to appear to be a ‘Hornby knocker’ - I’m far from it, but their TT Class 31 isn’t anywhere near production (all they’ve recently shown is an 00 gauge CAD drawing). It would have made far more sense to have said to Heljan, ok, ‘you go ahead with the 31 and we’ll move on to the next diesel on our list’. I get the impression Mr K was still in full ‘land grabbing’ mode at the time and Heljan subsequently decided to walk away, knowing duplication in a brand new scale would have been disastrous for all parties. It’s such a shame, as for TT to really get a foothold in the market, it really needs another big player and Heljan would have been perfect, being able to draw on their research for their existing 4mm and 7mm range and also not having a 2mm range, which other manufacturers may feel TT would conflict with their existing N gauge ranges.

 

Just think, we could have had the following classes in the pipeline from Heljan; 25,26,27,33,35,45,46,47,52,55,56,58,86,104 DMU,117 DMU,

121 DMU,122 DMU & 153 DMU. 

 

With a bit of luck, we might still see some of these from Hornby, some time in the future. Having two main players would have established the scale far quicker, bearing in mind, they’ll be a lot of prospective TT modellers sitting on the fence waiting for a credible offer to be available, before taking the plunge! 
 

Hopefully another manufacturer will emerge (the Class 47 seems a very obvious choice as a market tester,) which surprisingly, Hornby didn’t prioritise as a first phase release, given their widespread use and appeal with modellers. Time will tell! 

 

Edited September 2 by nickb4141
Grammar

[woodenhead]

I agree that Heljan were likely scared off by Simon Kohler's tactics which seemed to involve keeping everything related to TT120 to Hornby - as the investment needed to be fruitful quickly.  Had Heljan entered at that early time it was likely that Accurascale and Bachmann would have followed suit and Hornby would find itself in yet another crowded market that it could not control.

 

Since he 'left' there has been a change, retailers are able to sell TT120 and that I believe has actually benefitted Hornby because it gives other manufacturers an avenue to join the scale.  Having more than one manufacturer will give potential modellers some security that perhaps the scale is not all based on the whims and success of Hornby.

 

It is a pity that Heljan withdrew as it might delay further a second attempt from them, but Bachmann have now dipped a toe in the water with building with Malc's models and of course Revolution with those wagons.

[Hobby]

I'm sorry I don't wear that view. Are you seriously saying that a company the size of Heljan can be "frightened off?!! They had a choice and they chose not to go ahead with it. Another way of looking at things was that they thought they'd have the market to themselves and got cold feet when another company entered the market with bigger plans, which is just as valid. It's worth pointing out that when Hornby announced their plans in the initial catalogue they made it clear that the 31 was several years down the line, which gave Heljan plenty of time to get theirs out first. I am sorry they chose that route but it was their decision, not anyone else's, and not "forced" by anyone else.

 

As I said we've discussed this at length lots of times before on this thread (take the time to have a look at the many occasions!) and there is absolutely no evidence come to light of Heljan being "scared off".

 

They made a business decision and that's all. It's just some people can't accept that and want a scapegoat.

 

Anyhow it's a completely pointless discussion as none of us will know the truth and is perhaps best left alone. There's lots of "holes" in Hornby's planned range that Heljan could take advantage of if they'd wanted to but it's noticeable that they have chosen not to get involved, that, to me, says far more about their commitment to the new (British) scale than anything else.

Edited September 2 by Hobby

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Since he 'left' there has been a change, retailers are able to sell TT120

 

Yes but wasn't this already in the pipeline before SK left?

 

ISTR SK mentioning this in one of the early livestreams, in that Hornby were taking the initial 'risk' and that TT:120 would be opened out to retailers at a later date should it take off.

[woodenhead]

22 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

Yes but wasn't this already in the pipeline before SK left?

 

ISTR SK mentioning this in one of the early livestreams, in that Hornby were taking the initial 'risk' and that TT:120 would be opened out to retailers at a later date should it take off.

Maybe, but the attitude 'it's ours' came from him potentially stifling competition at the very beginning when it could actually have been very beneficial to have others in the water with you to improve it's chances further.  It's not like there wasn't previous form which did not do Hornby any favours.

[Hobby]

You keep saying that he stifled the competition. Please show us the facts that support that view. I'd love to know how one man and company can stop other companies joining in if they wish to. (And, please, what's in the catalogue to be produced in several years time (the 31) isn't hard evidence!)

[woodenhead]

He's not the Messiah, he was just the Marketing manager.

 

Hornby King, Hornby Terrier (our terrier, the one designed by Dapol originally), the TT120 class 31 when Heljan made a play to join TT120 at it's birth.

 

Personally I think they are better off without him, it allows fresh thinking and other people in the company a chance to shine, there are some talented young people working there.

 

 

[Hobby]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

He's not the Messiah, he was just the Marketing manager.

 

Hornby King, Hornby Terrier (our terrier, the one designed by Dapol originally), the TT120 class 31 when Heljan made a play to join TT120 at it's birth.

 

I never said he was, but I asked for facts and as I said announcing the TT120 class 31 in the catalogue to arrive in several years time was not stifling competition. Keep trying...

[Delta_Who]

25 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Maybe, but the attitude 'it's ours' came from him potentially stifling competition at the very beginning when it could actually have been very beneficial to have others in the water with you to improve it's chances further.  It's not like there wasn't previous form which did not do Hornby any favours.

 

Doesn't every manufacturer think like this though? It is a business at the end of the day? Can't expect the likes of Accurascale, Bachmann, Cavalex etc to swoop in on the Diesel/Electrics purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

Edited September 2 by Delta_Who

[woodenhead]

Just now, Delta_Who said:

 

Doesn't every manufacturer think like this though? It is a business at the end of the day? Can't expect the likes of Accurascale, Bachmann, Cavalex etc to swoop in on the Diesel/Electrics purely out of the goodness of their hearts?

It is, but you don't hear them whining about it, or talking about 'their' models on national TV.

 

Accurascale have swooped on several Bachmann products, what was the response, Bachmann upped their game which is a win win for modellers.  Heljan / Bachmann too, Dapol / Accurascale - the response was to get better at what was on offer and give modellers a choice which to purchase.

 

There have been even duplications with the smaller companies and the two parties have not gone to b*tching about it on social media.

 

To be fair Heljan could simply have continued with the class 31, it was they who chose to withdraw after Hornby mentioned they were doing 'everything' in TT120, perhaps they should have stuck at it.

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I never said he was, but I asked for facts and as I said announcing the TT120 class 31 in the catalogue to arrive in several years time was not stifling competition. Keep trying...

Oh and the class 91 and Mk4s..

 

Not as iconic as a HST so no updates from it's toylike state until there was competition.

[Hobby]

8 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It is, but you don't hear them whining about it, or talking about 'their' models on national TV.

 

To be fair Heljan could simply have continued with the class 31, it was they who chose to withdraw after Hornby mentioned they were doing 'everything' in TT120, perhaps they should have stuck at it.

 

The first is called advertising, and if they persuade a TV company to do it for them for free who wouldn't!

 

Re the second para Hornby never said they were doing everything, but they did commit to a large number of models "in the pipeline" to show their commitment. I suppose it depends on your point of view whether you regard that as bullying or encouraging people to take up the scale by commiting to giving them variety. See you've finally admitted Heljan could have carried on, though!

[Hobby]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Oh and the class 91 and Mk4s..

 

Not as iconic as a HST so no updates from it's toylike state until there was competition.

 

I'm amazed that Hornby can put off other manufacturers so easily. Is it just them, though, or are other companies equally as guilty? 

[Delta_Who]

18 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It is, but you don't hear them whining about it, or talking about 'their' models on national TV.

 

Accurascale have swooped on several Bachmann products, what was the response, Bachmann upped their game which is a win win for modellers.  Heljan / Bachmann too, Dapol / Accurascale - the response was to get better at what was on offer and give modellers a choice which to purchase.

 

There have been even duplications with the smaller companies and the two parties have not gone to b*tching about it on social media.

 

To be fair Heljan could simply have continued with the class 31, it was they who chose to withdraw after Hornby mentioned they were doing 'everything' in TT120, perhaps they should have stuck at it.

 

So far, most of the Bachmann "responses" would have been models that would have been in the pipeline for a fairly long time. The 31s and 37s being notable examples. So I'm unsure as to how much that is an Accurascale response, and more Bachmann consolidating on having modern retoolings that target the lower and higher end of the market.

 

And not to be a Hornby shill... but you can find examples of manufacturers and distributers taking potshots at Hornby. Rapido, Bachmann (TT Joke) and others.

 

But in the case of TT:120 exclusively... I think manufacturers backing out is more to do with the case of not having the uncontested monopoly they thought they were about to shovel coal into. It's true that the Hornby TT announcement came with a rather aggressive roadmap, but there is probably risk aversion to follow through with your own plans (Heljan) and just sit back and watch Hornby shovel their own money into the fire... and see how much of a return they get.

 

I don't think manufacturers have been put off. We're seeing quite a rapid development of the scenery/accessory market for TT, and we now have Revolution looking to make an entry. Hornby cannot cover the market by themselves; they will leave huge gaping holes. By now, it's pretty clear that they are trying to target their usual best-sellers. Retailers will be supplying early figures now too. 

 

So it's just a "wait and see" game. There are professionals who are paid to analyse the market.

Edited September 2 by Delta_Who

[Delta_Who]

Ultimately I think the market is pretty simple.

1. Do you have what I want?
2. Is it to a good quality?
3. How cheap can you make it?

 

If one of the above isn't met... there is room.

[Butler Henderson]

In his Model Rail artcle SK states the decision to sell direct only "was to prove to retailers there was a market for the scale" and many retailers "would have taken the risk of stocking the new range."

[woodenhead]

10 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

In his Model Rail artcle SK states the decision to sell direct only "was to prove to retailers there was a market for the scale" and many retailers "would have taken the risk of stocking the new range."

Have we all forgotten how awfully Hornby was treating it's retailers at this time, Tiers, unfulfilled orders, it was no surprise they thought it might be a risk taking on a new gauge from a company who could not guarantee to deliver what it promised whilst seemingly diverting stock towards it's online presence.

[ruggedpeak]

9 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

In his Model Rail artcle SK states the decision to sell direct only "was to prove to retailers there was a market for the scale" and many retailers "would have taken the risk of stocking the new range."

Yes, this was explained at the time and makes complete sense for a brand new range being launched. Why are other people revisiting this and rewriting history? How many many retailers would have taken a punt with their own money on an unproven scale? Not many, so not worth the time trying to sell it to them untill there was some evidence the product moves. Retailers will have been part of the plan all along as Hornby would never get sufficient market penetration sellnig direct only.

 

As for the 31, Heljan are big boys and girls and can make their own business investment decisions. Perfectly sensible to let others to play the duplication game, what I don't get is why not do some of their existing models like 128's which are standalone products that Hornby don't already do? A bright red Royal Mail 128 would probably be very popular in the TT:120 market. Fingers crossed.
 

4 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Have we all forgotten how awfully Hornby was treating it's retailers at this time, Tiers, unfulfilled orders, it was no surprise they thought it might be a risk taking on a new gauge from a company who could not guarantee to deliver what it promised whilst seemingly diverting stock towards it's online presence.

Its irrelevant, no sensible retailer is going to risk their money on an unproven scale with zero customer base or zero sales. The fact that some retailers were having challenges doesn't change the basic business situation. It is no different for major brands trying to get new products on the shelves at the big supermarkets, they have to prove demand, back up the product with massive promo/ad campaigns and sometimes even buy shelf space. Let's move on from digging up the irrelevant past, the handful of retailers I talk to are happy with Hornby these days and right now others are the ones causing them problems.

 

Time to move on and accept the SK period is over and things are dramatically different and improving at Hornby.

[Jeff Smith]

I think this whole discussion is a bit like chalk and cheese.  The investment by Heljan for one locomotive, for which they probably had all the data, pales into insignificance compared to Hornby's investment.  Surely Heljan would have sold enough items to at least break even, it makes their decision seem the height of prudence.....