Hornby announce TT:120

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Just a reality check for some of the nay-sayers.

 

The vast majority of TT:120 modellers are NOT on RMWeb.

 

I have counted 7 Facebook groups (and I've not got the lot by any means) dedicated to the scale, with just shy now of 10,000 members between them.  Even allowing for a degree of duplication of membership that still adds up to an awful lot.

 

There ares till an awful lot of basic technical questions being asked on these groups so I feel the overall number of modellers in the scale is still growing, and probably faster than most other scales where the number of basic questions (particulaly in the OO groups) is very small.

 

Les

 

basic questions like "do I need an insulator after a point" and "can I work two loops from one power feed- definite newby questions.

And the vast majority buying Hornby track.  Is anybody here (on RMWeb) building layouts with Peco track?  This would suggest a stepping away from the train set world...

[47606odin]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

And the vast majority buying Hornby track.  Is anybody here (on RMWeb) building layouts with Peco track?  This would suggest a stepping away from the train set world...

I have a box of 25 yards ready to go once I start my actual layout

[J-Lewis]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Is anybody here (on RMWeb) building layouts with Peco track?

 

Yes my layout is peco flextrack and peco points. I'm hoping Peco release some curved points soon as they'd be really useful now.

[Hobby]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

And the vast majority buying Hornby track.  Is anybody here (on RMWeb) building layouts with Peco track?  This would suggest a stepping away from the train set world...

 

Mine is a combination of both, or all three if you count H0m in the fiddle yard (I had some left over!). Plain track out front is Peco and the curves and points are Hornby, at the time Peco didn't do points which would have fitted the space, they now have some smaller radius ones. Interestingly I'd have probably stuck with Hornby as they seem, radius-wise, to be between the two Peco radii and a reasonable compromise!

[smr248]

I'm using Tillig.  Solves the lack of curved points problem.

Roco have also recently introduced TT track.

Of course the Hornby and Peco options are a bit cheaper.  With Tillig track it's cheaper to get it from Germany.

The Hornby trainset was enough to put me off Hornby track (warped curves and, to my mind, an overly long point with a big insulated frog in the middle).

[Jeff Smith]

25 minutes ago, smr248 said:

The Hornby trainset was enough to put me off Hornby track (warped curves and, to my mind, an overly long point with a big insulated frog in the middle).

Agreed, I ordered a Peco point and it's so much nicer than the Hornby one because of the live frog option and closer to scale rail height.  I would imagine that Peco must be selling plenty of TT track in Europe.....

 

However Hornby will have plenty of market share for the extended train set segment.

[britishcolumbian]

1 hour ago, smr248 said:

I'm using Tillig.  Solves the lack of curved points problem.

Roco have also recently introduced TT track.

Of course the Hornby and Peco options are a bit cheaper.  With Tillig track it's cheaper to get it from Germany.

The Hornby trainset was enough to put me off Hornby track (warped curves and, to my mind, an overly long point with a big insulated frog in the middle).

The track Roco released is the track they got when they acquired Kühn. I haven't seen the Roco production yet, but the Kühn track was rather nice, if with a limited range. Tillig's range is far larger of course, and I like their geometry. I haven't given Hornby track a second thought simply because Tillig's exists, but I'm seriously contemplating getting into handlaying my track anyways, so.

[Hobby]

Hornby use the same geometry as Tillig don't they?

[britishcolumbian]

I believe so, but their range is very limited compared to Tillig's (of course, because it's early days yet), but also I think Tillig's look better somehow. A friend here in town has reported that the Hornby track seems to corrode very quickly in our climate here.

[rob D2]

22 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

Not abrasive, just challenging those with the tedious and relentless negativity towards Hornby.

Discussing their financial position isn’t “ negativity “ , my concern was I’ve invested in the scale  and want it to keep going .

But granted , that discussion can go elsewhere no problem.

 

for the record I’m using  Peco track and points and west hill track settas. Just need the baseboard delivered to do it all now !

[Michanglais]

I haven't got a permanent layout yet so I use Tillig pre-ballasted track on a hard floor. It seems very reliable. I haven't got any points yet, I just like running trains in a roundy-roundy. I'm not sure what I'll use when I get my shelf layout done. Being in Europe, buying Tillig avoids import duties so I guess I'll probably stick with theirs when it comes to a permanent set up.

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Michanglais said:

Being in Europe, buying Tillig avoids import duties so I guess I'll probably stick with theirs when it comes to a permanent set up.

 

There is no import duty when importing model railway products into the UK (I believe they are zero-rated for duty), there only UK VAT to be paid.

 

If you buy from the right shop then foreign VAT will be deducted at the checkout and if the ex-VAT total is less than the foreign equivalent of £135 then HMRC doesn't currently add UK VAT when it arrives in the UK so you get your purchase VAT-free. This more than compensates for the higher carriage charges (I think I paid €9,90 p&p for my last purchase from Germany) but in any case prices of European products are generally a lot lower than you'd pay for the same items in the UK.  There is some debate as to whether postage is included in the £135 figure but in my experience it isn't, although this might depend on the courier.

 

If you spend over £135 then VAT will be added and the courier will almost certainly add a handling charge for the UK VAT calculation/collection as well. But in the case of things like Tillig track then the lower prices would probably still more than offset the cost of the p&p and also the handling charge because there seems to be quite a large markup on these sorts of items over here.

 

There is a thread here although it is getting quite long now:

 

 

Edited October 12 by Porfuera

[47606odin]

18 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

There is no import duty when importing model railway products into the UK (I believe they are zero-rated for duty), there only UK VAT to be paid.

 

If you buy from the right shop then foreign VAT will be deducted at the checkout and if you spend less than the foreign equivalent of £135 then HMRC doesn't add UK VAT when it arrives in the UK so you get your purchase VAT-free. This more than compensates for the higher carriage charges (I think I paid €9,90 p&p for my last purchase from Germany) but in any case prices of European products are generally a lot lower than you'd pay for the same items in the UK.  There is some debate as to whether postage is included in the £135 figure but in my experience it isn't, although this might depend on the courier.

 

If you spend over £135 then VAT will be added and the courier will almost certainly add a handling charge for the UK VAT calculation/collection as well. But in the case of things like Tillig track then the lower prices would probably still more than offset the cost of the p&p and also the handling charge because there seems to be quite a large markup on these sorts of items over here.

 

There is a thread here although it is getting quite long now:

 

 

but he is “over there” not over where you are in the Uk. He is on the continent in France

[Porfuera]

29 minutes ago, 47606odin said:

but he is “over there” not over where you are in the Uk. He is on the continent in France

 

Yes but he said that "Being in Europe, buying Tillig avoids import duties" and given that I imagine RMweb to be largely a UK audience then for the avoidance of doubt I was clarifying that there are no import duties on model railway items imported into in the UK either. And hence my references to UK VAT and HMRC, which wouldn't apply to Europe.

 

Even better there is no UK VAT charged if you spend under £135.

 

Edited October 12 by Porfuera

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

Even better there is no UK VAT charged if you spend under £135.

 

Split it into two or three batches a day or two apart all under £135 if you need to spend more!

Edited October 12 by Hobby

[GrumpyPenguin]

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

 

If modellers bought their European Brands locally & shopped around they would get prices comparable to buying from the European Mainland and not have to worry about getting charged VAT (& eventually, I expect everything will attract VAT at some point) and transaction fees.

 

Of course, UK suppliers won't stock that much because of the "save 50p" brigade.

 

And many wonder why we have so few local model shops.

 

Anyway, getting back to TT:120, personally, I think Hornby were wise to adopt the European scale/gauge - it opens up their market to sell UK models to European 1/220 scale modellers to run with their established stock & not look out of place. It works the other way too of course.

[Porfuera]

55 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation.

 

If modellers bought their European Brands locally & shopped around they would get prices comparable to buying from the European Mainland and not have to worry about getting charged VAT (& eventually, I expect everything will attract VAT at some point) and transaction fees.

 

Of course, UK suppliers won't stock that much because of the "save 50p" brigade.

 

And many wonder why we have so few local model shops.

 

It is a lot more than 50p though, isn't it?

 

A Tillig Advanced Track 3-way point in Germany costs the equivalent of around £45 (that's including German VAT and from a proper bricks-and-mortar shop, not some internet-only seller), while over here they're £56 (RoS) going up to £67 (Golden Valley Hobbies). Even Tillig's own RRP is lower than those prices - only around £52.

 

And that's only one item - once you've added in some points and other track pieces then the price difference between Europe and what you'd pay in the UK becomes quite large.

 

The UK markup on foreign goods has always been high - maybe it is because we live on an island and we're afraid of buying goods from abroad and so retailers exploit that. I would guess that people in Europe are more used to buying goods from other countries, which would help keep their local prices competitive.

 

And I'm merely doing what you suggest - i.e. shopping around. What's the difference between shopping around and buying from a UK box-shifter at a reduced price or buying from Europe? Both are going to hit local model shops. And who on here hasn't bought from a box-shifter?

 

Perhaps if the price differential wasn't so high in the first place I'd buy from shops here. That would be a way out of the Catch-22 situation for retailers.

[GrumpyPenguin]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

It is a lot more than 50p though, isn't it ?

Of course it is, my comment was TIC.

 

One of the issues is that because the UK retailers only buy small quanities they have to buy through an importer (who always charge full RRP to public sales - that's how the trade works). European shops tend to buy direct from the manufacture.

 

At one time UK retailers could buy direct from manufactures thus "cutting out the middle man", pre EU membership prices were comparable but with EU membership &/or the internet the playing field became uneven. Indeed, even when buying direct from the manufactures mainland european retailers get a better deal. Taking all things into consideration some retailers can get very close to EU prices but that of course means spending a little time until you find the "one".

 

As it happens (speaking as a modeller), I've never bought from a "box shifter" unless what I wanted was only available from one.

 

Anyway, I've explained the catch 22 situation and taken the thread drift a little too far so I'll say no more on the subject.

 

 

[Mike Harvey]

3 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

Yes but he said that "Being in Europe, buying Tillig avoids import duties" and given that I imagine RMweb to be largely a UK audience then for the avoidance of doubt I was clarifying that there are no import duties on model railway items imported into in the UK either. And hence my references to UK VAT and HMRC, which wouldn't apply to Europe.

 

Even better there is no UK VAT charged if you spend under £135.

 

 

Understood. But a French (@michanglais) customer buying Hornby or Peco track from the UK could incur VAT and clearances charges on their purchase which they would not suffer if buying Tillig from within the EU. That was the relevance of his comment.

[smr248]

I imagine that some of the the EU countries are better at extracting the duty / VAT than the Brits?

Discuss!

[Porfuera]

7 hours ago, Mike Harvey said:

Understood. But a French (@michanglais) customer buying Hornby or Peco track from the UK could incur VAT and clearances charges on their purchase which they would not suffer if buying Tillig from within the EU. That was the relevance of his comment.

 

Both Hornby and Peco track can be bought from retailers in Europe so if these did attract import duty (as direct imports) then presumably buying from a retailer would avoid that cost. It would be a question of doing the calculations to work out which way would be most economical.

 

He also mentioned that he was only using Tillig's bedding track as a temporary setup and he had yet to decide what he would eventually use so perhaps Hornby and Peco are still possibilities.

[Michanglais]

11 hours ago, smr248 said:

I imagine that some of the the EU countries are better at extracting the duty / VAT than the Brits?

Discuss!

 

The French seem to be very keen on getting hold of cash with goods imported to France from the UK. To be honest, I'm not sure what the import duty ceiling is here. I seem to remember that people can buy direct from Temu (China-based, I believe) up to €150 without paying import duties, so I guess it must be the same for the UK. Interestingly, I used to model North American and very rarely got charged even VAT, let alone import duties. Anyway - totally off topic!

 

As someone mentioned (sorry, can't find the poster to quote), Hornby TT:120 has made me think more about European (mainland) TT. So, I guess I'm the other way round in that I'm a France-based modeller, drawn to TT by Hornby's launch and now looking at European TT. 

 

There are a number of retailers over here stocking Hornby TT but not the entire range (of the retailers I've found so far). I kind of tend to prefer buying from Hornby direct, even with the higher price. For one their deliveries to the EU are price-as-paid-at-checkout (all necessary paperwork/import duties, etc. sorted) but also because I've found their customer services to be pretty good at sorting quality issues (of which there have been many, unfortunately). 

 

On another topic, I'm guessing not many people are fans of Sam's Trains (he doesn't seem to be very popular on RMWeb!) but he did a vaguely interesting (if, apparently somewhat flawed given the comments section on YouTube) comparison between manufacturers of OO scale and found that Hornby hadn't been particularly active in OO (tho I seem to remember he had them in second place) and posited that it might be because of their activity in TT:120. I do buy a little OO for display and I've only got one Hornby loco. It will be interesting to see whether Hornby make a swing to being mainly a TT manufacturer like Tillig (we can dream!). I'm guessing the market may not be big enough for a company like Hornby to survive with TT sales only (I could be wrong). I guess time will tell.

 

[smr248]

I might be in the minority but I quite like Sam's Trains.  IMO though this video is not one of his better ones.  A snapshot in time, some basic maths and ultimately misleading (I didn't watch the whole thing so I might have missed something, although I doubt it).

He suggests that TT has affected the design of new OO products by Hornby, which might be true.

Apparently, based on his criteria, Rapido are currently number 1!?

[rob D2]

I think it’s sad that it’s become a chicken and egg thing . I appreciate Hornby has only so much to spend on development , but I’ve seen more than one person give up on TT becuase of lack of supply of new stuff . It took, what 1.5 years from introduction to getting a diesel loco and HST, no sign of the 31 & 47. Might have been better to get more stuff ready for sale before annnoucning it .

 

Im happy to scratchbuild stuff like sheds and stations ( if I can engineer TT brick paper ) but if they are looking for new entrants I hope they have a range of stations, tunnels etc to be available , becuase that market may require to buy off the shelf 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Michanglais said:

 

(snipped)

On another topic, I'm guessing not many people are fans of Sam's Trains (he doesn't seem to be very popular on RMWeb!) but he did a vaguely interesting (if, apparently somewhat flawed given the comments section on YouTube) comparison between manufacturers of OO scale and found that Hornby hadn't been particularly active in OO (tho I seem to remember he had them in second place) and posited that it might be because of their activity in TT:120. I do buy a little OO for display and I've only got one Hornby loco. It will be interesting to see whether Hornby make a swing to being mainly a TT manufacturer like Tillig (we can dream!). I'm guessing the market may not be big enough for a company like Hornby to survive with TT sales only (I could be wrong). I guess time will tell.

 

Only time will tell what Hornby will do about its various ranges (and the conflicts between various of them in 00) but I think Tt120 is here to stay.  I've said taht before and their recent pronouncements seem to confirm that view.

 

But that leaves a big question about their ability to invest in tooling at the same time in a couple of different scales and we don't know the answer to that apart from what they announce to the market.  Internally if the Brand Director is doing his job he will concentrate investment in new tooling where it offers the best overall return and we simply don't know where that is (but a recently announced delay to the Hornby Dublo branded 'Deltic' might be giving a hint??).  Once the hangover of introductions created under the previous regime slips by I think that  If newly tooled TT120 items appear more frequently than newly tooled 00 items then we might well be getting the flavour of Hornby's direction when it comes to investment.