Hornby announce TT:120

[moawkwrd]

11 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

You pay what you think it’s worth . I paid about £34 a coach recently - they are now £24 . I didn’t blanche at 34 so I can’t moan at 24, that’s the way it goes 

I wouldn’t moan too much about that either as it’s a smaller discount. 

[009 micro modeller]

53 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Bear in mind that Hornby are trying to attract newcomers to the hobby with TT120, at least at the moment, and shunting puzzles aren't really part of that market. As Moawkwrd said, it's something for later once you've got them in. TBH I'm a enthusiast of 60+ years and don't like them either, I've only ever built one end to end and I even converted that to a circuit!

My point was in relation to the suggestion that children might buy the sets (or have them bought for them). Technically, if operated in the intended ‘puzzle’ way, an Inglenook is a ‘game with rules’ in a way that a train set oval isn’t, which, if I remember correctly from a course I did a couple of months ago on planning family learning activities, is associated in child development terms with a slightly older age range.

 

This is different from a more established modeller building a more complex continuous run set-up, or building a simple single track oval where the operation isn’t really supposed to be the main point of interest (I built a pizza layout like this once - no sidings etc. but the point of the layout was the scenery and overall display, which is a different direction that a newcomer could go in if they wanted to develop their layout further but weren’t particularly interested in adding sidings and operational complexity).

 

Agree with what others have said though in that it probably is adult beginners that this is all being more directly aimed at. The other thing about shunting puzzles is whether the points (presumably dead frog for a train set) are seen to be unreliable or to make the operation more frustrating for a beginner.

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

Bear in mind that Hornby are trying to attract newcomers to the hobby with TT120, at least at the moment, and shunting puzzles aren't really part of that market. As Moawkwrd said, it's something for later once you've got them in. TBH I'm a enthusiast of 60+ years and don't like them either, I've only ever built one end to end and I even converted that to a circuit!

I'm sure there will be both steam and diesel goods sets, probably with the same oval of track with one point and a few straights so the it can be added to with the existing track packs.

[J-Lewis]

Some great prices in those sale items. I've picked up a few extra coaches. Looks like they're clearing the decks ready for the rumoured new / improved models in the new year? (New motors for the mainline locos and improved bogies/wheel bearings on the coaches and wagons).

 

[Hobby]

I got an 08 for conversion into that Dock tank lookalike. Would have got a Mk2 but they weren't on offer, maybe next time.

[MarkSG]

If you want something that looks a lot more like shifting a mountain of unwanted stock, this selection of wagon bundles currently on offer at Rails is more like it:

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/save-big-with-our-new-Hornby-wagon-bundles

 

But, of course, that's OO, so it doesn't feed into the narrative of TT:120 detractors 😀

[smr248]

What I really can't understand about the people who want TT to fail, is that, if it does, it'll have knock on effects on the whole of Hornby.

They've innovated and produced a new product line.  They need to appeal to more customers and this is one way of doing it.

[Hobby]

They are like many football fans, if its not their team they'll use any excuse to deride them. It's rather pathetic really.

[Chris M]

I don't see any vibes that anyone wants tt:120 to fail. Hornby is clearly bringing in some heavy discounts to shift stock in both 00 and TT:120 and that is reasonable cause for comment. I expect they will also be discounting on any other brands where there are higher than wanted stocks that aren't moving fast enough.  I view TT:120 with interest although it is not for me at the moment. Will it work out for Hornby? Will other rtr manufacturers start making TT:120? etc etc. The business decision to go for TT:120 was an interesting and brave one. As all the established UK markets had got the likely big selling items of stock well covered they decided to go for a new (to the UK) scale. That is a perfectly sensible, albeit somewhat high risk, strategy. We won't know whether it has worked or not for another 5-10 years. The decision to go for 120 scale is quite understandable but its one of those things where you can't win. I saw a 3mm scale layout at an exhibition recently and I still think it is that the scale that "got away". To me 3mm seems to provide the best compromise of presence versus space required although of course the track gauge is very wrong and Hornby would have been heavily criticised if they had gone for 3mm (1:100) scale rather than 1:120. At the other end of the spectrum I feel TT:120 is too close to British N to make it stand out as having a worthwhile difference. Others will disagree and to be fair it is just a matter of opinion; nobody is right or wrong. I can understand why Hornby decided they didn't want to compete in the lowish volume and already quite crowded world of N gauge. Two years into this new project it would seem that things are largely going to plan for Hornby which is good for the hobby. The only surprising thing about the sale was that the some fairly recently arrived HST stock was heavily discounted. I'm guessing that is likely to be finance instructing that stock must be shifted across the board. Finance people can be very harsh at times with their instructions; the need to generate sufficient cash to keep the company going will often take precedence over everything else.  I'm sure the next 2 or 3 years will be very interesting for TT:120 and it's development in the UK. The wider Hornby Group does need to firstly start generating sufficient cash to start moving forward (by getting stock levels down) and then work on becoming profitable. Quite a challenge, but just like any other business really.

Edited October 9 by Chris M

[Hobby]

If you read back through this thread, Chris, you'll find plenty if negative vibes, both for TT and Hornby!

[47606odin]

4 hours ago, Chris M said:

I don't see any vibes that anyone wants tt:120 to fail. Hornby is clearly bringing in some heavy discounts to shift stock in both 00 and TT:120 and that is reasonable cause for comment. I expect they will also be discounting on any other brands where there are higher than wanted stocks that aren't moving fast enough.  I view TT:120 with interest although it is not for me at the moment. Will it work out for Hornby? Will other rtr manufacturers start making TT:120? etc etc. The business decision to go for TT:120 was an interesting and brave one. As all the established UK markets had got the likely big selling items of stock well covered they decided to go for a new (to the UK) scale. That is a perfectly sensible, albeit somewhat high risk, strategy. We won't know whether it has worked or not for another 5-10 years. The decision to go for 120 scale is quite understandable but its one of those things where you can't win. I saw a 3mm scale layout at an exhibition recently and I still think it is that the scale that "got away". To me 3mm seems to provide the best compromise of presence versus space required although of course the track gauge is very wrong and Hornby would have been heavily criticised if they had gone for 3mm (1:100) scale rather than 1:120. At the other end of the spectrum I feel TT:120 is too close to British N to make it stand out as having a worthwhile difference. Others will disagree and to be fair it is just a matter of opinion; nobody is right or wrong. I can understand why Hornby decided they didn't want to compete in the lowish volume and already quite crowded world of N gauge. Two years into this new project it would seem that things are largely going to plan for Hornby which is good for the hobby. The only surprising thing about the sale was that the some fairly recently arrived HST stock was heavily discounted. I'm guessing that is likely to be finance instructing that stock must be shifted across the board. Finance people can be very harsh at times with their instructions; the need to generate sufficient cash to keep the company going will often take precedence over everything else.  I'm sure the next 2 or 3 years will be very interesting for TT:120 and it's development in the UK. The wider Hornby Group does need to firstly start generating sufficient cash to start moving forward (by getting stock levels down) and then work on becoming profitable. Quite a challenge, but just like any other business really.

lots of negativity and comments about it having failed on social media and especially now the sale has popped up. And regards original Tt vs tt120, then the issues are the 3mm models and gauge aren’t true to scale with each other, whereas 120 is true to scale and has a big established market on the continent and elsewhere to feed into, all of which, for the first time match scale and gauge with the new Hornby products, so therefore a much better option

[rob D2]

I didn’t realise Hornby were in quite such a dire financial postion as the video I watched on them portrayed .the only tiny profits made recently were in the pandemic and now they have the bloke from sport direct propping them up, 

 

I hope they don’t fail otherwise my layout in TT will be forever class 50 s and HSTs ! I can’t see it as such an iconic brand must attract additional investment if it goes down to the wire .

 

The main comments on social I see are “ shouldn’t have done TT, should have done …..” ( insert gauge if your choice ). I think it’s a bold decision to try and stimulate a new market personally , and the Hornby guy said recently it had out performed sales expectations ( doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve made a profit on it but encouraging anyway ).

 

 

[Hobby]

50 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I didn’t realise Hornby were in quite such a dire financial postion as the video I watched on them portrayed .

 

They aren't, nor are they in rude health, at least that's the views from the professional analysts (ie not him). 

 

Wicker man is just using it as click bait.

 

[Dunsignalling]

To be frank, whether TT-120 was a good idea or not, is largely immaterial. The real issue is that, two decades into the 21st century, Hornby Hobbies still looks very 20th century. Despite off-shoring production, little else at Margate seems to have changed much.

 

The root of Hornby's financial problems are (imho) essentially down to having a big-business  "conglomerate" structure and costs overlaid on what is really a collection of smaller enterprises.

 

I have long suspected that all of them might do better as stand-alone businesses, free of the "group".

 

However, the benefits of independence would only be realised if free of any hangover from what went before.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10 by Dunsignalling

[Hobby]

So many financial experts, all Hornby have to do is look on social media to find out what to do...

 

(As none of us know what the true position is within the company none of us can give any serious suggestions on what would be the best way forward.)

 

BTW I thought there was a thread specifically on their accounts, how about you all go and speculate on there rather than mess up a thread that's supposed to be about their TT120 offerings and NOT their financial position?!!

 

Here you go, @Dunsignalling and others:

 

 

Edited October 10 by Hobby

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I hope they don’t fail otherwise my layout in TT will be forever class 50 s and HSTs ! I can’t see it as such an iconic brand must attract additional investment if it goes down to the wire .

& there lies the problem - what what I see Hornby go from crisi to crisis, management "restructure" to management "restructure" but they always seem to have some sort of debt mountain to service.

[rob D2]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

So many financial experts, all Hornby have to do is look on social media to find out what to do...

 

(As none of us know what the true position is within the company none of us can give any serious suggestions on what would be the best way forward.)

 

BTW I thought there was a thread specifically on their accounts, how about you all go and speculate on there rather than mess up a thread that's supposed to be about their TT120 offerings and NOT their financial position?!!

 

Here you go, @Dunsignalling and others:

 

 

No need to be quite so Abrasive .

I'm sure you’ve never offered an opinion online on anything ?

 

There isn’t exactly an avalanche of new TT offerings to get excited about is there really ?

 

speculation on the health of the cornerstone of TT really comes down to wanting longevity of what we have . I’m about 1000 quid into this now so I’d be happy if they pump out what they say they will 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

So many financial experts, all Hornby have to do is look on social media to find out what to do...

 

(As none of us know what the true position is within the company none of us can give any serious suggestions on what would be the best way forward.)

 

BTW I thought there was a thread specifically on their accounts, how about you all go and speculate on there rather than mess up a thread that's supposed to be about their TT120 offerings and NOT their financial position?!!

 

Here you go, @Dunsignalling and others:

 

 

Several points but let's try to close out the financial stuff and - as you say - get back on TT120 track.

1. Over the last decade Hornby have lost millions of £s and are surviving solely on expensive loan money although they did make small operating profits in a couple of years because of the pandemic.

2. They have lost market share and, probably more importantly, have suffered a large real value drop in sales since the late 2000s.

3. They have in the past had a poor Run 2 strategy which has caused over-stocking and added to their financial woes.

 

The previous management needed to find a way out of the market situation they were in and this led to TT120 - which I still regard as a brilliant idea (although it isn't for me).  They have created a new market with, presumably, the hope that they can dominate it; in their last financial year their most profitable trainset was one in TT120.  That says something for the investment in the scale and no doubt might encourage where some of their investment in model railways might head.

 

The present management very quickly identified the fundamental need to boost revenue and try to tackle the mountain of unsold stock.  This has led to various 'offer' initiatives and one thing they are clearly trying to do in the model railway area (including TT120) is to not allow piles of unsold or slow moving items hang around and cost money in warehousing and hit the bottom line of their accounts.   That's a great improvement on the way things were managed in the past (Bachmann have been doing it in the UK for years).

 

So it appears that TT120 items which are building up stock surpluses or are moving too slowly are being cleared through various offers instead of sitting around costing money - simply good business financial management.  If they get their marketing right it won't be many items going that way.   But marketing depends on very accurate predictions of what will sell in what quantities and if you manufacture on spec (instead of to order) you can get it wrong (or very wrong as Hornby often did in the past).

 

What's the future of TT120 from Hornby?  They have a lot of (continuing) investment to recover so they probably won't throw it away.  They boast about TT120 sales successes to their shareholders and the wider world which suggests to me that they have strong commitment to the scale/range.

 

And their overall financial state - well 'Hobby' provided the link to where that is discussed. What I have tried to do is identify where TT120 fits into that overall picture (as I see it) and note the way Hornby has positively mentioned TT120 in their own reports etc.

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

No need to be quite so Abrasive .

I'm sure you’ve never offered an opinion online on anything ?

 

There isn’t exactly an avalanche of new TT offerings to get excited about is there really ?

 

speculation on the health of the cornerstone of TT really comes down to wanting longevity of what we have . I’m about 1000 quid into this now so I’d be happy if they pump out what they say they will 

 

No, I'm sorry, that's not abrasive, it's frustration that people continue to use this thread to discuss Hornby PLC's (i.e. The Hornby Group, not just one small part of the railway part of it) financial position on a thread on which it has little or no relevance and despite there being a thread set up to discuss it and it's being linked from this thread several times. If people feel that it is relevant to a thread about TT120 why aren't those same people posting the same stuff on, say the Black 5 thread, or perhaps the APT thread?

 

The fact that nothing is happening (or a little, as there is a bit that came out of that Peachy interview) currently in TT120 is not an excuse, or, if it were, then those threads I've mentioned should have a similar thread drift.

 

I'd love it for Andy to come along and ask people, nicely, to keep to TT120 discussions, I live in hope!

 

BTW thanks to Stationmaster for attempting to close the thread drift with a good summary, can I ask (nicely! that if you feel the need to discuss what he's said you do on on the appropriate thread and not this one?

 

Please!

[ruggedpeak]

8 hours ago, rob D2 said:

No need to be quite so Abrasive .

I'm sure you’ve never offered an opinion online on anything ?

 

There isn’t exactly an avalanche of new TT offerings to get excited about is there really ?

 

speculation on the health of the cornerstone of TT really comes down to wanting longevity of what we have . I’m about 1000 quid into this now so I’d be happy if they pump out what they say they will 

Not abrasive, just challenging those with the tedious and relentless negativity towards Hornby.

[Red Devil]

On 09/10/2024 at 19:47, Chris M said:

 The decision to go for 120 scale is quite understandable but its one of those things where you can't win. I saw a 3mm scale layout at an exhibition recently and I still think it is that the scale that "got away". To me 3mm seems to provide the best compromise of presence versus space required although of course the track gauge is very wrong and Hornby would have been heavily criticised if they had gone for 3mm (1:100) scale rather than 1:120. At the other end of the spectrum I feel TT:120 is too close to British N to make it stand out as having a worthwhile difference. 

Sorry.....Mr Pedantic writes but......!

 

In reality there hasn't been anything 3mm ready to run by a major manufacturer in decades and what went before can mainly be classed as toys......So anything in 3mm is going to have to built and that's not a problem for those who like building stuff, but the majority of new entrants would probably go 14.2 rather than 12mm gauge so the argument over track gauge isn't really there in this respect. 

 

That said I do agree with you 100% that 3mm is a nicer scale than 120 but that's just a personal opinion, after buying a 120 08 I just found it too small and decided to go 3mm/14.2

 

What's done is done 120 came along and 3mm is most definitely going to stay a scale for builders, I have no axe to grind either way but 3mm wrong gauge to scale thing is a bit of a fallacy, in a lot of cases it's as easy to build something in 14.2 as it is 12mm, anything diesel etc outline it's probably easier in fact.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, Hobby said:

I'd love it for Andy to come along and ask people, nicely, to keep to TT120 discussions, I live in hope!

 

You don't need to live in hope, you just need to tag @ay-mod or myself in a post and we'll have a look. We can't read all of RMweb all the time!

 

And yes, please can we leave "How Hornby should be managed" to one of the existing threads already offering wisdom to Margate.

 

Thanks

[Phil Parker]

10 minutes ago, Red Devil said:

What's done is done 120 came along and 3mm is most definitely going to stay a scale for builders, I have no axe to grind either way but 3mm wrong gauge to scale thing is a bit of a fallacy, in a lot of cases it's as easy to build something in 14.2 as it is 12mm, anything diesel etc outline it's probably easier in fact.

 

I must have missed that when I did it. 14.2 steam locos must be compensated or they fall off the track, a job I never enjoyed. Personally, I'm glad Hornby went 1:120, as it leave 1:100 to builders. There's plenty of support through the 3mm Society, so if you want something different, 3mm scale is waiting.

[Red Devil]

21 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I must have missed that when I did it. 14.2 steam locos must be compensated or they fall off the track, a job I never enjoyed. Personally, I'm glad Hornby went 1:120, as it leave 1:100 to builders. There's plenty of support through the 3mm Society, so if you want something different, 3mm scale is waiting.

Never built a steam loco in 3mm hence my comment on diesels! I'll take your word for it!😁 My take on it is that I have more room to get everything in.....As to falling of the track well with the benefits of dead rail mine do more running in any other surface other than track!

 

I'm not bothered either way about RTR because building stuff is more fun for me.

 

 

[Les1952]

Just a reality check for some of the nay-sayers.

 

The vast majority of TT:120 modellers are NOT on RMWeb.

 

I have counted 7 Facebook groups (and I've not got the lot by any means) dedicated to the scale, with just shy now of 10,000 members between them.  Even allowing for a degree of duplication of membership that still adds up to an awful lot.

 

There ares till an awful lot of basic technical questions being asked on these groups so I feel the overall number of modellers in the scale is still growing, and probably faster than most other scales where the number of basic questions (particulaly in the OO groups) is very small.

 

Les

 

basic questions like "do I need an insulator after a point" and "can I work two loops from one power feed- definite newby questions.

Edited October 10 by Les1952
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