Hornby announce TT:120

[Michanglais]

Happily having a Class 50 pootling round the track with a mixed rake of Mk2s fitted with the Hornby magnetic couplers.

 

So far, no random uncouplings. I was a little sceptical at first because the magnets are a lot weaker than my usual TJModèles couplers but, so far so good and I doubt I'd ever want to run more than my 8-car rake. 

 

Let's hope Hornby continue to provide these couplers in the future - a welcome addition.

 

Apart from a green 08, I think I'm done with my TT:120 purchases for this year (unless Hornby have a surprise up their sleeve!) - my bank account will be most relieved!

 

 

[J-Lewis]

16 hours ago, Michanglais said:

Apart from a green 08, I think I'm done with my TT:120 purchases for this year (unless Hornby have a surprise up their sleeve!) - my bank account will be most relieved!

My preorder list is down to just a handful of items now.  It will be interesting to see when Hornby release the next phases for ordering. Class 37 and Pannier tanks will likely make a dent in my bank account!

[moawkwrd]

22 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

My preorder list is down to just a handful of items now.  It will be interesting to see when Hornby release the next phases for ordering. Class 37 and Pannier tanks will likely make a dent in my bank account!

They’ve said a couple of times that they want to move to announcing models closer to their release like they’ve done with the J50 and other items announced earlier this year so I doubt we’ll ever see a big range of items going up for preorder again.

Edited June 6 by moawkwrd

[HSB]

20 hours ago, Michanglais said:

Happily having a Class 50 pootling round the track with a mixed rake of Mk2s fitted with the Hornby magnetic couplers.

 

So far, no random uncouplings. I was a little sceptical at first because the magnets are a lot weaker than my usual TJModèles couplers but, so far so good and I doubt I'd ever want to run more than my 8-car rake. 

 

Let's hope Hornby continue to provide these couplers in the future - a welcome addition.

 

 

 

This is the first time I've seen any mention of Hornby magnetic couplings! Did they come with the Mk2s?

[Hroth]

Nice to see the 50 appear, but a pity that Heljan decided to not to continue with a 31 after Hornby announced that they were going to do one too, especially since Hornbys effort seems to be disappearing into the long grass....

 

[Hobby]

It always was a year or two down the line!  Nothing was ever going to get delivered quickly, we just have to be patient. 

[natterjack]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

Hornbys effort seems to be disappearing into the long grass....

As does Heljan's excuse.

[irishmail]

5 hours ago, HSB said:

This is the first time I've seen any mention of Hornby magnetic couplings! Did they come with the Mk2s?

Yes  magnetic coupling  came  with  the  MK2's.  I  think  that  they  are  going  to  be  released as an  accessory  at some point.

[Stefen1988]

I noticed, the Hornby TT120 LNER J50 Class comes with a 6-Pin Sockel, so this Loco is not "Sound Ready"?

 

I wonder if still a sound decoder is fittable without work.

[ColinB]

31 minutes ago, Stefen1988 said:

I noticed, the Hornby TT120 LNER J50 Class comes with a 6-Pin Sockel, so this Loco is not "Sound Ready"?

 

I wonder if still a sound decoder is fittable without work.

Well if there is enough space you could convert an 8 pin one to 6 pin by just soldering on a new connector. If not I know Zimo do some very small 6 pin sound decoders, I used one in a Bachmann old split chassis A4 where there was very little room.

[irishmail]

1 hour ago, Stefen1988 said:

I noticed, the Hornby TT120 LNER J50 Class comes with a 6-Pin Sockel, so this Loco is not "Sound Ready"?

 

I wonder if still a sound decoder is fittable without work.

You can get 6-pin sound decoders.

[ColinB]

41 minutes ago, irishmail said:

You can get 6-pin sound decoders.

I think they wanted to use a HM7000. So why is Hornby making a new TT120 model with a 6 pin socket rather than 18 pin?

[J-Lewis]

33 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I think they wanted to use a HM7000. So why is Hornby making a new TT120 model with a 6 pin socket rather than 18 pin?

In a video interview I seem to recall Hornby mentioned they are working on a six pin sound decoder but it’s being delayed by chip or production shortages of some kind.

[Michanglais]

13 hours ago, irishmail said:

Yes  magnetic coupling  came  with  the  MK2's.  I  think  that  they  are  going  to  be  released as an  accessory  at some point.

 

I must try some of the Hornby magnetic couplers in some Mk3s to see if they provide the same close coupling. Maybe they'll make available lengths to specific coaches, tho that would make the whole process very costly, I guess.

 

I don't know if Hornby have respected the NEM distance from the end of its Mk1s, etc. As far as I'm aware, the same couplers on Continental TT provide corridor-to-corridor coupling. Possibly to do with the coupler mechanism fouling the bogie/support too much. I've got aftermarket magnetic couplings on my Mk1s and they provide the same fully close-coupling as the new magnetic Hornby ones provided with the Mk2s.

 

 

[ColinB]

9 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

In a video interview I seem to recall Hornby mentioned they are working on a six pin sound decoder but it’s being delayed by chip or production shortages of some kind.

TT120s are new models, I have played around with converting a lot of locos to DCC and the 18 pin socket isn't much bigger than a six pin if you take both parts of the connector (socket plus plug on decoder), so for a new loco 18 pin is a better option.

[Porfuera]

16 hours ago, ColinB said:

I think they wanted to use a HM7000. So why is Hornby making a new TT120 model with a 6 pin socket rather than 18 pin?

 

It is down to lack of space. And also cost, I'd imagine. Even the Class 08 has a 6-pin decoder at the moment and I imagine the J50 will be even smaller. And obviously it isn't just the chip - you need to get a speaker in there as well, which I imagine would be a real struggle for the J50.

 

I know that Farish do an RTR N Gauge Class 08 with sound but AFAIAA even they don't do any other small shunters with sound (I had a quick look but I might have missed them). And from what I've read on this thread the Next18 HM7000 is oversize due to the global lack of availability of smaller components, especially the bluetooth chip/aerial which will add to the size of the chip over a non-bluetooth one - maybe it will come with the next generation of HM7000 sound chips, which are supposed to be smaller.

 

Perhaps more critical might be the lack of space for a stayalive for small shunters if they're going to run over Hornby's plastic-frog points, although I read somewhere that Hornby will be bringing out a smaller version of their powerbank so maybe that will fit. But a Next18 sound chip, speaker and stayalive would be a tall order for a J50.

 

It is possible to fit in Hornby's HM7000 8-pin sound chip into the Class 08 (plus flywheel, lights, stayalive and crew) - if you have the courage! See the ThisWayWorks YouTube link below. But presumably this would have pushed up the price of the RTR Class 08 to unreasonable levels for such a new product - plus a special 8-pin TXS chip would have been required with less wiring and without a plug rather than the standard 8-pin chip and so that would have involved yet more cost... And to save space the chip is hard-wired in rather than having a socket - that would be even more time-consuming and expensive on a production line, I'd guess.

 

I wonder if the guy at ThisWayWorks will do something similar for the J50 when it comes out? He has already done a home-brewed TT:120 Jinty with sound/lights/stayalive/firebox flicker(!)...

 

Class 08 video here

 

Jinty video here

 

Edited June 7 by Porfuera

[ColinB]

5 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

It is down to lack of space. And also cost, I'd imagine. Even the Class 08 has a 6-pin decoder at the moment and I imagine the J50 will be even smaller. And obviously it isn't just the chip - you need to get a speaker in there as well, which I imagine would be a real struggle for the J50.

 

I know that Farish do an RTR N Gauge Class 08 with sound but AFAIAA even they don't do any other small shunters with sound (I had a quick look but I might have missed them). And from what I've read on this thread the Next18 HM7000 is oversize due to the global lack of availability of smaller components, especially the bluetooth chip/aerial which will add to the size of the chip over a non-bluetooth one - maybe it will come with the next generation of HM7000 sound chips, which are supposed to be smaller.

 

Perhaps more critical might be the lack of space for a stayalive for small shunters if they're going to run over Hornby's plastic-frog points, although I read somewhere that Hornby will be bringing out a smaller version of their powerbank so maybe that will fit. But a Next18 sound chip, speaker and stayalive would be a tall order for a J50.

 

It is possible to fit in Hornby's HM7000 8-pin sound chip into the Class 08 (plus flywheel, lights, stayalive and crew) - if you have the courage! See the ThisWayWorks YouTube link below. But presumably this would have pushed up the price of the RTR Class 08 to unreasonable levels for such a new product - plus a special 8-pin TXS chip would have been required with less wiring and without a plug rather than the standard 8-pin chip and so that would have involved yet more cost... And to save space the chip is hard-wired in rather than having a socket - that would be even more time-consuming and expensive on a production line, I'd guess.

 

I wonder if the guy at ThisWayWorks will do something similar for the J50 when it comes out? He has already done a home-brewed TT:120 Jinty with sound/lights/stayalive/firebox flicker(!)...

 

Class 08 video here

 

Jinty video here

 

I know it is not Hornby. I frequently convert 8 pin to 6 pin sockets in things like shunters where there is minimal space, so I can squeeze in a LaisDCC stayalive. Recently I was comparing a 6 pin Zimo MN170 with its Zimo 18 pin equivalent and they were virtually the same size. So if you weren't Hornby and you were designing a new loco that is the way you would go. I suppose that is why Dapol, Bachmann and a few others have standardised on the 18 pin for all new models where there is minimal space.

[Les1952]

22 hours ago, ColinB said:

I think they wanted to use a HM7000. So why is Hornby making a new TT120 model with a 6 pin socket rather than 18 pin?

 

The HM7000 18 pin decoder is pretty massive so I suspect you can't get one into a TT gauge J50 and leave enough weight for the loco to pull itself round the track...

 

Les

 

[ColinB]

24 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

The HM7000 18 pin decoder is pretty massive so I suspect you can't get one into a TT gauge J50 and leave enough weight for the loco to pull itself round the track...

 

Les

 

I know, I did think why engineer a new 6 pin HM7000, wouldn't it be better to reduce the size of the 18 pin one. I suppose it is the bluetooth bit that takes up the room.

[Roy L S]

Were I to look to put sound in a TT120 J50 (or the 08 for that matter one of which I have) my sound chip of choice would be the tiny 6 pin Zimo MS500 and a Sugarcube speaker, having crammed DCC sound including speaker into a Farish B1 tender (alongside the tender-drive albeit hard-wired) I feel quite confident I could find a way to fit sound in a small TT120 loco.

 

That said @Porfuera is quite correct in saying that Farish haven't fitted sound into any small steam locos, although alongside the 08 they have also now sound-fitted the Class 14 "Teddy Bear".

 

My conclusion is that if you don't allow yourself to be hamstrung by insisting on using Hornby DCC products, small TT120 locos should be relatively easy to put sound in, even if removing the DCC socket  and hardwiring is necessary to free up space. Similarly, using that approach I would think (but obviously don't know until they arrive) finding room for a stay alive capacitor should be possible somehow and certainly easier than in N where you would have to be a real DCC sound expert to get all that in a Sonic J50 🤔.

[Les1952]

8 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Were I to look to put sound in a TT120 J50 (or the 08 for that matter one of which I have) my sound chip of choice would be the tiny 6 pin Zimo MS500 and a Sugarcube speaker, having crammed DCC sound including speaker into a Farish B1 tender (alongside the tender-drive albeit hard-wired) I feel quite confident I could find a way to fit sound in a small TT120 loco.

 

That said @Porfuera is quite correct in saying that Farish haven't fitted sound into any small steam locos, although alongside the 08 they have also now sound-fitted the Class 14 "Teddy Bear".

 

My conclusion is that if you don't allow yourself to be hamstrung by insisting on using Hornby DCC products, small TT120 locos should be relatively easy to put sound in, even if removing the DCC socket  and hardwiring is necessary to free up space. Similarly, using that approach I would think (but obviously don't know until they arrive) finding room for a stay alive capacitor should be possible somehow and certainly easier than in N where you would have to be a real DCC sound expert to get all that in a Sonic J50 🤔.

 

The main problem is that Hornby's "red box syndrome" means they won't look at anyone else's solution to see how it is done.  That at the outset seemed also to include failing to look within their own group at what Arnold are doing.  My sound-fitted Arnold class 181.2 locos in N are best described as fabulous.  Not cheap (Arnold isn't) but worth every panny.

 

 

If Arnold can do it in N- and also make 2-10-0s in TT that waltz happily round Radius 2 curves then Hornby should be getting ARNOLD designers to lead the project.

 

Outside of Hornby this Roco class 44 is a good deal bigger than Hornby's Pacifics and it also treats Radius 2 curves as normal bits of track- sailing round them with no loss of speed.

 

Sorry for the fuzzy pic- no pic on the layout available yet- too busy driving at Sleaford show to get one...

 

Les

 

[Taigatrommel]

Though I do like them, my Arnold 171/251s have the tops of the bogies missing to be able to traverse tighter curves.  While that's not something necessary with British D&E loco designs, it is illustrative of the compromises that must be made for "train set" use.

[Hobby]

17 hours ago, Les1952 said:

The main problem is that Hornby's "red box syndrome" means they won't look at anyone else's solution to see how it is done.

 

That's a massive assumption to make with no hard evidence to back it up. I'd be amazed if it were the case that they haven't looked at what other TT manufacturers were doing. In fact I'm sure I remember in the early days mention made of them having looked at and discussed things with the Arnold part of their group. 

 

Regarding the comparison with Arnold TT or N and DCC, I'd suggest their strategy for their new DCC system drove things, perhaps a little too much from the TT point of view to where we are now. 

 

Fact is, though, that both of us are, again, guessing and making assumptions based on gut feelings rather than any hard evidence. 

Edited June 9 by Hobby

[moawkwrd]

Can’t comment on the DCC issue but I don’t think it’s a stretch to look at Arnold mechanisms and those of the first TT locos (A1/A3, A4 and Class 08) and deduce that there was no knowledge sharing within the group… they’re really leagues apart. Recent releases are better but the timeline suggests the improvements still aren’t taking into account what Arnold has been doing for years.

 

All of those problems that the first locos had, some of which are still occurring (shafts dropping out of the Class 43 and 50 etc) aren’t insurmountable design issues, other manufacturers including Arnold have had them solved for decades.

 

Hornby came at this fresh and it still shows. It really wouldn’t surprise me if the brands within the group are still awfully silo’d.

Edited June 9 by moawkwrd

[ruggedpeak]

6 minutes ago, moawkwrd said:

Can’t comment on the DCC issue but I don’t think it’s a stretch to look at Arnold mechanisms and those of the first TT locos (A1/A3, A4 and Class 08) and deduce that there was no knowledge sharing within the group… they’re really leagues apart. Recent releases are better but the timeline suggests the improvements still aren’t taking into account what Arnold has been doing for years.

 

All of those problems that the first locos had, some of which are still occurring (shafts dropping out of the Class 43 and 50 etc) aren’t insurmountable design issues, other manufacturers including Arnold have had them solved for decades.

 

Hornby came at this fresh and it still shows. It really wouldn’t surprise me if the brands within the group are still awfully silo’d.

There is also a sizeable price differential between Arnold TT and TT:120 locos with steam type mechanisms. I suspect Hornby rightly concluded that the new UK based TT:120 market would not wear a £300 price point for UK outline steam locos, and thus it may not be unreasonable to assume that there was some info sharing but Hornby sought to find a cheaper solution?