Hornby announce TT:120

[J-Lewis]

1 hour ago, BachelorBoy said:

Or they got it right, but the management decided, for other reasons (such as risk, return on capital, allocation of resources) that there was no point going ahead. 

The Heljan Class 31 was available on pre-order from a number of different retailers, but it seems reasonable to expect that orders for a single loco (which had no supporting wagons or coaches) would be lower than warranted Heljan pushing ahead with it.

 

I strongly suspect the Heljan announcement was simply a trial balloon to see what sort of appetite there was for the scale.  It’s a shame they appear to have pulled away from TT for now because competition is always good for us consumers, and a Heljan model would undoubtedly have been good quality.

 

Heres hoping for an announcement of a Class 20, 25, 26 or some other currently unsupported loco by Heljan or a rival manufacturer soon.

[smr248]

I had an order for the Heljan 31 with Hattons.  Then the price increased by at least 10% to about £180, which, in my eyes, increased the price from expensive to very expensive.  Then Hornby came along, initially with prices below £100 for the 66 (with discounts).  That's probably why Heljan decided to throw in the towel because they couldn't compete on price?

Of course Hornby TT prices have increased a lot since the launch.

[Jeff Smith]

Who knows, they might still be working on it for a surprise announcement!

[BachelorBoy]

6 hours ago, smr248 said:

I had an order for the Heljan 31 with Hattons.  Then the price increased by at least 10% to about £180, which, in my eyes, increased the price from expensive to very expensive.  Then Hornby came along, initially with prices below £100 for the 66 (with discounts).  That's probably why Heljan decided to throw in the towel because they couldn't compete on price?

Of course Hornby TT prices have increased a lot since the launch.

 

 

Hornby TT120 was cheaper in the very early days to attract people -- an introductory discount. Hornby accepted lower profits on each item (or even losses) to build a group of TT120 modellers who were prepared to take a chance. Lower prices meant the early buyers would lose less money if they decided they didn't like the scale, or if Hornby later abandoned it and they were left with unfinished layouts with not enough locos. (Hornby also built trust with customers by announcing lots of future models too) 

 

As TT120 becomes established, new modellers in the scale are taking less risk, and so Hornby can raise prices

 

You have to be careful with low prices. Price can be a sign of quality. If you keep prices low for too long, customers may conclude that Hornby TT120 isn't very good, or they may expect it to be cheap for ever, or both and Hornby has less freedom to raise prices and margins. 

 

Heljan may well have been sceptical about Hornby's ability to make TT120 a success, and so decided to wait and see. Hornby's probably done much more market research that Heljan could do quickly about TT120. Too much uncertainty.

 

If it launched the 31 in the early days, it would be taking a risk on Hornby's abilities, and, would probably not make much return on investment if it had to price the 31 to match Hornby. So why waste resources on competing with Hornby? 

 

Plus, the more manufacturers making GB120 locos and rolling stock, the more chance there is the scale will succeed. So Heljan might actually be helping Hornby by expanding the range of products. Why help a rival?

 

If TT120 proved to be a disaster for Hornby, and it abandoned ship, Heljan might also find itself with toolings that were no longer any use, and therefore were worthless, and a warehouse full of unsold stock. 

 

So, much better for Heljan to wait, and concentrate on scales it knows best. Hornby has very helpfully mapped out its future products ... Heljan (and others) can work out where the lucrative gaps are. 

 

In the meantime, let Hornby put lots of capital at risk.

 

If TT120 is successful, Heljan can benefit from Hornby's investment.

 

If TT120 is a failure for Hornby, that will be a big blow to Hornby, and to the benefit of Heljan.  

 

(An alternative view:  use real options analysis. It might be better for Heljan to launch a small range of TT120 stuff even if it loses money, because it might be easier and cheaper to scale that up if TT120 is successful to take advantage of demand, than starting a TT120 range from scratch in a few years time.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hobby]

Did Hornby ever officially put a price tag on the 66 in the early days, I don't remember any "below £100" quote? 

 

Regards Heljan, of course it makes sense to let someone else take the risk, but having said that they were prepared to go ahead on their own with one loco, surely Hornby then coming in should have been a positive move as it will help their initial sales... Or perhaps they just weren't that interested and took the easy option.

[Porfuera]

36 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Did Hornby ever officially put a price tag on the 66 in the early days, I don't remember any "below £100" quote? 

 

They were £102.99 at the start, which with the 15% discount easily took them below £100 - my invoice says £87.54.

 

I regretted ordering just a single Class 66 when the price went up! ☹️

[smr248]

42 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Did Hornby ever officially put a price tag on the 66 in the early days, I don't remember any "below £100" quote? 

 

Regards Heljan, of course it makes sense to let someone else take the risk, but having said that they were prepared to go ahead on their own with one loco, surely Hornby then coming in should have been a positive move as it will help their initial sales... Or perhaps they just weren't that interested and took the easy option.

I can't remember the exact price but it was at that sort of level - cheaper than the 08 and a lot cheaper than the 50.  Of course, 1 year later, this is all ancient history and the Hornby prices are much higher.

I can't see how it would have helped Heljan if the competition was significantly cheaper?  As far as quality was concerned, that's not something you really going to know about until you've actually received the thing.  The 66, at the time, was probably suspiciously cheap, though.

[Hobby]

5 minutes ago, smr248 said:

I can't see how it would have helped Heljan if the competition was significantly cheaper? 

 

Payback isn't straight away, though, it's over several years, even decades, and I suspect they'd be aware that Hornby's initial prices were artificially low as has been said as introductory prices so were more than likely to increase, as they have. To me Heljan backed out with undue haste, if they were serious they could have had their 31 out long before Hornby's. Anyhow, as usual, just speculation! Keeps the thread going until the arrival of the HSTs and 50s, though I'm not interested in them or a 66, it's what comes next that interests me!

[Phil Parker]

A few photos from Warley:

 

[andrewshimmin]

3 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

They were £102.99 at the start, which with the 15% discount easily took them below £100 - my invoice says £87.54.

 

I regretted ordering just a single Class 66 when the price went up! ☹️

 

Yes - I'm regretting not pre-ordering one - as they have been delayed I could have saved up for one...

[andrewshimmin]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

A few photos from Warley:

 

 

Looking absolutely fantastic.
Handsomest locos the LMS ever produced.

[andrewshimmin]

People who have been to Warley, etc., - do we have any updates on expected available/delivery dates for LMS carriages (BR liveries, LMS liveries), HSTs (locos and Mk3s), Duchesses?

[smr248]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

Payback isn't straight away, though, it's over several years, even decades, and I suspect they'd be aware that Hornby's initial prices were artificially low as has been said as introductory prices so were more than likely to increase, as they have. To me Heljan backed out with undue haste, if they were serious they could have had their 31 out long before Hornby's. Anyhow, as usual, just speculation! Keeps the thread going until the arrival of the HSTs and 50s, though I'm not interested in them or a 66, it's what comes next that interests me!

I agree with the bit about speculation.  I'm waiting for the Duchess not all this "modern image" (how dated that sounds now) stuff.

[smr248]

16 minutes ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

Yes - I'm regretting not pre-ordering one - as they have been delayed I could have saved up for one...

I'm regretting not ordering 100s.  Would have been a very good investment...

[teletougos]

9 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Who knows, they might still be working on it for a surprise announcement!

Maybe with a dealer markup to a price of £300+, to add to the surprise. 

[J-Lewis]

The Arnold TT scale container wagons are now in stock on the Hornby website.  They look pretty good as potential loads for the Class 66?

[GenericRMWebUsername]

3 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

The Arnold TT scale container wagons are now in stock on the Hornby website.  They look pretty good as potential loads for the Class 66?

Hmm, that was fast. They're showing as out of stock for me! I bet they'll add more shortly. It's like the Blue 08 shunter that has run out of stock only to return. 

[J-Lewis]

Yes looks like they’ve sold out.  I wonder how many they had in stock?  That’s an incredibly fast sell out for a wagon.  

[ellocoloco]

A quick glance at the Hornby Int'l brands on their website will show most items as either preorder or last few. My interest is Electrotren and certainly when a new product comes in, Hornby seem to supply their retailers and preorders and keep relatively few to themselves for the e-shop.  The last three items I had preordered were immediately down to 'last few' at the time mine was dispatched.

 

Of course the Arnold flats now have much more potential interest with the launch of British outline and I have the feeling that Hornby TT120 and Arnold thinking isn't as joined up as it really should be. If you ordered them, you'll get them. If not, and they have proved popular, then there will be another run on the way - maybe in a start set with a 66!*

 

*I have absolutely no evidence of this! 😉

[BachelorBoy]

3 hours ago, ellocoloco said:

I have the feeling that Hornby TT120 and Arnold thinking isn't as joined up as it really should be.

 

It might get worse, as the management is changing the set up to have brands running themselves.

[natterjack]

10 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

t might get worse, as the management is changing the set up to have brands running themselves.

Sink or swim?

[The Stationmaster]

18 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

It might get worse, as the management is changing the set up to have brands running themselves.

The interesting question is who is managing the 'other' railway brands (such as Arnold in this context)?  And in where they might, or might not, be based and things infuture might be no different, might be better, or could be wirse when it comes to liaison between the Brand Managers.

 

As ever time will tel but at least as far as UK outline is cincerned  think t he changed organisation for brands, for marketing, and for selling, is a move in the right direction for Hornby and one that is long overdue..

[Jeff Smith]

You would think that now that Hornby has brought out a complete TT range that it would be offering track on the Arnold TT site.......

[Porfuera]

5 hours ago, ellocoloco said:

Of course the Arnold flats now have much more potential interest with the launch of British outline and I have the feeling that Hornby TT120 and Arnold thinking isn't as joined up as it really should be. If you ordered them, you'll get them. If not, and they have proved popular, then there will be another run on the way - maybe in a start set with a 66!*

 

*I have absolutely no evidence of this! 😉

 

There may be some evidence...

 

Back in January, in their "Hornby 2023 continental range" article, World of Railways listed a couple of Arnold sets - one of which was a Class 66 with container flats (the other was a Vossloh with bogie grain hoppers):

 

(Arnold) Train Sets

• HN9900 Train Set "Colas Rail", 4-axle diesel locomotive Vossloh DE 18 with 2 x 4-axle silowagons "Transcéréales", ep. VI HINT
• HN9901 Train Set Class 66 + 3 Container Wagons

 

The article is here:

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/Hornby-2023-continental-range/

 

[Porfuera]

16 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

You would think that now that Hornby has brought out a complete TT range that it would be offering track on the Arnold TT site.......

 

It is listed in the Hornby International 2023 catalogue along with HM7000, plus lots of 00 scenic stuff and buildings and so on.

 

If people want to buy it online then I guess they just go to the Hornby online shop rather than the Arnold shop

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Porfuera