Hornby announce TT:120

[rob D2]

I dont think there’s any particular malice to TT…. Introduce something new and you’ll get the whole range of emotions about it on the inter web,  More for me, the number of livery and release cock ups in OO meant I’d rather they’d “ got that sorted “ before heading in a new direction .

 

But it’s irrelevant now as they’ve run up the white flag and turned tail for DE releases…all their decent diesels are now being done by other players to new and higher standards , Hornby have ceased to be a player simply.

[teletougos]

9 hours ago, rob D2 said:

run up the white flag and turned tail for DE releases…all their decent diesels are now being done by other players to new and higher standards , Hornby have ceased to be a player simply.

 If as someone stated, Hornby want to be 'mass market', rather than like an expensive hifi supplier, are they ceasing to go there ?  Or was it never their intention to go to that end of the diesel market anyway?

 

 

[J-Lewis]

Hornby seem to be aiming for the level of decent quality at a reasonable price, and aiming to maximise return.  Their range includes a good spread of different price options, including some higher end models and a fair number of legacy products at decent prices.  
 

These new products like TT and HM7000 decoders are particularly keenly priced, I’m paying less than half what I’m used to for sound decoders and the performance is great.

 

I suspect that even if Hornby did bring a super detailed Accurascale style loco to market those same internet naysayers would find something to gripe about.   Ultimately at the end of the day it’s just a hobby and these are all toys (even the £300 ones).  It might be better to buy a £125 sound fitted ex-Lima Hornby Railroad class 47 than a £300 Accurascale one.  Especially given the depreciation on expensive models once played with or weathered.  Heck even a £30 second hand Lima might be a better purchase.

 

The gimmicks like sprung buffers and rotating exhaust fans etc. just seem to have given rise to a breed of collectors rather than modellers imo.

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, teletougos said:

 Adding a larger cab to 3mm-ise the Plymouth may actually be more prototypical as the Lima hood is too fat anyway. 

This one at least is 3’ 6” gauge (Newfoundland Railway) but I’m not sure it’s similar enough in shape to use the Lima N gauge loco: https://www.flickr.com/photos/photodejour/14236521586 They don’t always run that well anyway.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[Legend]

New subjects that can generate a return in OO are becoming scarce. When you see things like Turbomotives and Leaders getting models , even Southern Boosters , you know thats the case. New OO models are tending to be high spec versions of existing models such as the 37 or 47. But there are a limited amount of subjects that can withstand several different models of the same type. Some more niche models are being picked off by manufacturers with lower overheads eg KR models or Rapido . So model companies have had to look elsewhere for subjects  .  For Bachmann its 009, for Dapol its O and for Hornby they elected to go TT120.    That doesn't mean OO is dead , just that they are looking elsewhere for growth and margin .

Edited November 13, 2023 by Legend

[The Stationmaster]

Hornby under the previous management were still casting their net towards hi-fi production and theh forthcoming Black 5 is the latest result of that.   The simple question for theh future will be how they spend their development money and that means the Brand Managers, in particular now, getting their marketing right and identifying where that money will get the best return - that is what the company is clearly now about (because it has to be).

 

Hornby has the necessary financial backing in place and it has the support of its major investor - who is basically funding that money even when it is also coming from other sources.  But the name of the new game is to make sure that money is spent in the best possible way to reduce the share of it which has to be spent simply to keep the business afloat.  That in turn means sales revenue and good marketing deciding what to make to sell and how to encourage the market to buy it.

 

But first they have to somehow reduce the mountain of unsold stock which is driving a big hole into their accounts - so more selling effort.  And above all they really do need to sort the confusing mish-mash of their 00 ranges but that is unlikely to happen overnight in my opinion.

 

Development work will not stop, that has to be given if the company is to remain in business,  But I do expect that greater care will be taken over where the effort (and money) is directed - but only Hornby knows what that will mean.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

...the Brand Managers, in particular now, getting their marketing right...

Marketing has been a long term problem for the OO product. Can Hornby transition to a very obvious three tier oh, that's taken, 'segment' division of their product into 'Trainset', 'Standard' and 'Premier Line'; or whatever titles marketing think will best enable expectation setting; and then stick to it. (Previous incumbent deaf to such suggestions - responding without fail, most charmingly...

 

Sorry, lost track, an OO specific problem doesn't belong here...

Edited November 13, 2023 by 34theletterbetweenB&D
apology for inappropriate location

[J-Lewis]

19 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Marketing has been a long term problem for the OO product. Can Hornby transition… into 'Trainset', 'Standard' and 'Premier  and then stick to it. 

Im sure I read that the new head of marketing is ex-Lego, so that would seem to bode well for future marketing efforts.  We shall see what happens I guess.

[natterjack]

24 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

Im sure I read that the new head of marketing is ex-Lego

I look forward to my 1/120 Batmobile.

[andrewshimmin]

Coming back to future models, and being conscious that what would be most attractive for Hornby are models where there are the maximum possible sales for the initial investment, I wondered about LMS 3 cylinder 4-6-0s?

The same chassis could be used for Royal Scot, Patriot, Jubilee, rebuilt Scot/Patriot, with quite a lot of livery and variant possibilities.

It would also suit the LMS and BR carriages they're due to release soon, and go with the Duchess and Black 5.

[andrewshimmin]

On another topic, what I would really like to see are some earlier/more variety of carriages.

Any photographs of trains in the Big Four or BR steam era show that the trains had a variety of carriages, not just monotonous Stanier / Gresley Track / Mark 1 rakes.

For some reason models of e.g. earlier pre-Stanier LMS standard stock, or late pre-grouping stock, seems rare in any scale. But they were pretty ubiquitous on trains on the real railway for decades.

I wonder if they're just simply not commercially viable?

Maybe this is where future TT:120 kits have to come in?

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, andrewshimmin said:

Maybe this is where future TT:120 kits have to come in?

Whilst it should be reasonable easy to assemble a well designed coach kit, paint finishes can be quite another matter, especially in the smaller scales.

I have wondered why vinyl sides have been fairly popular when water slide decals could  also be an option that could retain 3D surface detail (using the various setting solutions now available). For the sizes of N and TT120 stock even a full side decal should be fairly easy to handle.

Any decal producers care to comment?

[Covkid]

On 12/11/2023 at 22:36, rob D2 said:

I dont think there’s any particular malice to TT…. Introduce something new and you’ll get the whole range of emotions about it on the inter web,  More for me, the number of livery and release cock ups in OO meant I’d rather they’d “ got that sorted “ before heading in a new direction .

 

But it’s irrelevant now as they’ve run up the white flag and turned tail for DE releases…all their decent diesels are now being done by other players to new and higher standards , Hornby have ceased to be a player simply.

Thinking about it you are right - in terms of D&E releases.  In fact, by compiliing this list, it is only the abysmal Bagnall, the Sentinels and the class 67 which Hornby still "have to themselves"   

 

Ex Lima 20 recently revamped by Bachmann

"Early" class 25 announced by Bachmann and SLW

Ex Lima 26 and 27 done by Heljan

Class 29 covered by Dapol

Class 31 (Hornby and ex Lima) announced by Accurascale

Class 35 covered by Heljan

Class 37 recently revamped by Bachmann and released by Accurascale

Class 40 recentlly revamped by Bachmann but also announced by KR models

Class 47 covered by Heljan, Bachmann, VI trains and Rail Exclusives

Class 50 announced by Accurascale

Class 56 announced by Cavalex

Class 58 covered by Heljan and EFE

Class 59 covered by Dapol

Class 60 announced by Cavalex

Ex Lima 66 covered by Bachmann, Hattons and announced by Accurascale

Class 73 covered by Dapol

Class 86 covered by Heljan

Class 92 covered by Accurascale

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Class 87? 91?
 

Ruston & Hornsby?

[HExpressD]

19 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Class 87? 91?
 

Ruston & Hornsby?

Class 08 too!

[teletougos]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

Thinking about it you are right - in terms of D&E releases.  In fact, by compiliing this list, it is only the abysmal Bagnall, the Sentinels and the class 67 which Hornby still "have to themselves"   

 

Ex Lima 20 recently revamped by Bachmann

"Early" class 25 announced by Bachmann and SLW

Ex Lima 26 and 27 done by Heljan

Class 29 covered by Dapol

Class 31 (Hornby and ex Lima) announced by Accurascale

 

 

Am I right in thinking that Hornby as well as Bachmann inherited some Lima tooling? This list gives that impression, apologies if my interpretation wrong.

[Moxy]

1 hour ago, teletougos said:

Am I right in thinking that Hornby as well as Bachmann inherited some Lima tooling? This list gives that impression, apologies if my interpretation wrong.

 

Not to my knowledge.  Hornby got all the Lima tooling, none went to Bachmann.  There were some duplications of prototypes, eg Class 20/25/37/47 where models were available from both Lima/Hornby and Bachmann, but in those cases the toolings were developed separately by the relevant manufacturer.

[frobisher]

4 hours ago, Covkid said:

Thinking about it you are right - in terms of D&E releases.  In fact, by compiliing this list, it is only the abysmal Bagnall, the Sentinels and the class 67 which Hornby still "have to themselves"   

 

Ex Lima 20 recently revamped by Bachmann

"Early" class 25 announced by Bachmann and SLW

Ex Lima 26 and 27 done by Heljan

Class 29 covered by Dapol

Class 31 (Hornby and ex Lima) announced by Accurascale

Class 35 covered by Heljan

Class 37 recently revamped by Bachmann and released by Accurascale

Class 40 recentlly revamped by Bachmann but also announced by KR models

Class 47 covered by Heljan, Bachmann, VI trains and Rail Exclusives

Class 50 announced by Accurascale

Class 56 announced by Cavalex

Class 58 covered by Heljan and EFE

Class 59 covered by Dapol

Class 60 announced by Cavalex

Ex Lima 66 covered by Bachmann, Hattons and announced by Accurascale

Class 73 covered by Dapol

Class 86 covered by Heljan

Class 92 covered by Accurascale

 

You missed;

 

Class 06 - awful but they have that one to themselves

Class 87 - they have to themselves

Class 91 - they have to themselves

 

And

 

Class 08/09 covered by Bachmann (though I can't remember an 09 in a blue box?)

Class 33 (Ex Lima) covered by Heljan

Class 42 (Ex Lima) - Bachmann one is still better...

Class 52 (Hornby and ex-Lima (possibly)) covered by Heljan and then bettered by Dapol

Class 57 (Ex Lima cough!) - Heljan and Bachmann are waaay better

[J-Lewis]

So many duplicates in the 00 market these days, it’s hard to see how it is sustainable.  I also wonder about so many thousands of second hand 00 locos coming onto the market due to demographic changes, and if you can pick up a decent early 90’s loco for £30 why pay £130 for a brand new one that’s essentially the same model from any manufacturer?

 

Even these new £300 premium locos aren’t exactly offering good value.  There can’t be many people buying multiple Accurascale locos, it’s got to be a special purchase at that price surely?

 

Hornby have the right idea with TT, a scale they can ‘own’ at least in part, and an untapped market where they will have the only Class 37 etc. for the foreseeable and provided the prices remain reasonable they will no doubt continue to grow that market.

 

 

 

 

[ruggedpeak]

12 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

So many duplicates in the 00 market these days, it’s hard to see how it is sustainable.  I also wonder about so many thousands of second hand 00 locos coming onto the market due to demographic changes, and if you can pick up a decent early 90’s loco for £30 why pay £130 for a brand new one that’s essentially the same model from any manufacturer?

 

Even these new £300 premium locos aren’t exactly offering good value.  There can’t be many people buying multiple Accurascale locos, it’s got to be a special purchase at that price surely?

 

Hornby have the right idea with TT, a scale they can ‘own’ at least in part, and an untapped market where they will have the only Class 37 etc. for the foreseeable and provided the prices remain reasonable they will no doubt continue to grow that market.

I agree, Hornby diving into TT with a clear field does appear a smart move given that OO seems to reaching saturation to some degree.

 

Accurascale may have sold out of their 37's but Ebay is full of them, many "brand new" but not from official resellers. Bachmann 37's can be had for very cheap money if you shop about and are now in bundles offered by retailers. Both are great models but the market may not be as big as it appears if the speculators are removed. Bachmann has put a lot of money into new toolings of duplicated locos (37 and 47, £1m reportedly on the latter), as have Accurascale, but Hornby have put their investment into an area without competition. Looks like a smart move so far.

 

From a business strategy perspective it is definitely a good idea (doesn't mean it will work of course, may still fail due to poor execution, market changes etc etc) but as I look at the prices and availability of some core new models you start to think OO is becoming overcrowded and may need a shake out. I think speculators and collectors are driving a lot of sales, in part based on hype/sentiment, but certainly the former may drop out as they get stuck with locos they can't resell. Meanwhile Hornby seem to be shifting TT stock without an issue.

[HExpressD]

2 hours ago, teletougos said:

Am I right in thinking that Hornby as well as Bachmann inherited some Lima tooling? This list gives that impression, apologies if my interpretation wrong.

I think the list has a little bit of clumsy wording, eg:

5 hours ago, Covkid said:

Ex Lima 20 recently revamped by Bachmann

Would imply to me that Bachmann make a Class 20 based on Lima's, and Hornby do which is their own whereas the opposite is true, Hornby's is Ex-Lima, and the Bachmann one is solely theirs.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, HExpressD said:

I think the list has a little bit of clumsy wording, eg:

Would imply to me that Bachmann make a Class 20 based on Lima's, and Hornby do which is their own whereas the opposite is true, Hornby's is Ex-Lima, and the Bachmann one is solely theirs.

 

Yes. Apologies. It was a clumsily written post.

Nevertheless, it is a reminder of how many D and E subjects Hornby have involuntarily let go to competition.  

[natterjack]

4 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Hornby have involuntarily let go to competition

Sorry but I just don't get this line of thinking. Hornby are a mass producer and need mass markets. Smaller and niche producers will always be able to produce models to better specs than the mass market wallet will afford- just how much of the Hornby range do you realistically expect Accurascale (and other smaller producers) to compete with).

The TT120 move remains a perfectly sensible one viz a viz the increasingly competitive environment of RTR OO. Where Hornby are scoring beyond all others in OO is in 'passenger trains' such as the forthcoming LNER Coronation sets which will readily translate to the Silver Jubilee and tourist stock and I really hope these eventually appear in 120 scale. That said, they did 'let go' of the Blue Pullman to Bachmann.

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

Accurascale may have sold out of their 37's but Ebay is full of them, many "brand new" but not from official resellers. Bachmann 37's can be had for very cheap money if you shop about and are now in bundles offered by retailers. Both are great models but the market may not be as big as it appears if the speculators are removed. Bachmann has put a lot of money into new toolings of duplicated locos (37 and 47, £1m reportedly on the latter), as have Accurascale,...

 

That, to me, is a big warning light flashing. Bachmann must have sunk a substantial amount of money into their new 37 , albeit rather less than has been quoted for their investment  in the 47. The need to replace the Mk3 Bachmann 37 wasn't obvious to me , and we've already discussed the point that as prices get higher and the improvement generated by the new tooling gets more marginal the "replacement cycle" breaks down. People are not going to dump their existing Bachmann or Vi-Trains models and buy half a dozen new 37s in the way they did 20 years ago when people were dumping Lima collections on ebay.

 

Historically duplication has tended to lead to both sides getting scalped. It certainly did with the Class 71 and Adams Radial .  (Hornby still "own" the 71 - its just the small market has been so flooded it's difficult to see when they could ever re-run the model). But it can take 3 years from release before the extent of the commercial disaster becomes obvious...

 

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Yes. Apologies. It was a clumsily written post.

Nevertheless, it is a reminder of how many D and E subjects Hornby have involuntarily let go to competition.  

 

This is something of a misunderstanding . Take a steam subject which everyone would say Hornby have "lost" to Bachmann - the 4F

 

I was startled when checking to discover that the Bachmann 4F has only been released twice , and the last time was I think 2016. Hornby have produced their 4F several times since then. And this is not a minor class - nearly 800 built with a 50+ year service life,  a medium sized mixed traffic loco suitable for most steam era layouts. If you can't keep that readily available it's a poor outlook. How can you "own" a subject if your model only com,es out about as often as Halley;'s Comet??

 

Meanwhile Hornby keep knocking out and selling budget price 4Fs , 37s,  47s and 66s from tooling which has nothing more to pay off...

 

(this is not totally off topic. I do wonder if the TT:120 37 + 47 are intended to form the basis for a new Railroad 37 and 47 in OO when the Lima tooling becomes life expired, in the way in which the Railroad Mk1s replaced the old Triang models . A fundamentally accurate and subtantially improved budget./mid range model for those who don't want to pay top dollar for a state-of-the-art high spec model

 

2 hours ago, natterjack said:

Sorry but I just don't get this line of thinking. Hornby are a mass producer and need mass markets. Smaller and niche producers will always be able to produce models to better specs than the mass market wallet will afford- just how much of the Hornby range do you realistically expect Accurascale (and other smaller producers) to compete with).

 

.... Where Hornby are scoring beyond all others in OO is in 'passenger trains' such as the forthcoming LNER Coronation sets which will readily translate to the Silver Jubilee and tourist stock and I really hope these eventually appear in 120 scale. That said, they did 'let go' of the Blue Pullman to Bachmann.

 

There is certainly a market for budget models , whether we like it or not. And Hornby seem to find it more commercially rewarding than high-end stuff. (Although I get the strong impression some folk on both sides of the Irish Sea think the answer to "just how much of the Hornby range do you realistically expect Accurascale (and other smaller producers) to compete with?"  is "most of it. And Bachmann too." We will see how that plays out over the next 5 years)

 

It is also noteworthy that Hornby are the only serious player in the high speed unit market. HST, APT, Eurostar, Pendolino, Javelin, IEP... It's not high-end spec , but virtually nobody else goes near those subjects . The Rapido APT -E and the miserable Dapol Pendolino are the only exceptions

 

But for practical reasons, those subjects are perhaps better suited to TT:120 than OO 

[teletougos]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

It is also noteworthy that Hornby are the only serious player in the high speed unit market. HST, APT, Eurostar, Pendolino, Javelin, IEP... It's not high-end spec , but virtually nobody else goes near those subjects . The Rapido APT -E and the miserable Dapol Pendolino are the only exceptions

 

But for practical reasons, those subjects are perhaps better suited to TT:120 than OO 

 Good post. I think people ignore the mid-range market, in places like this anyway. The ever-increasing-detail route suits the mindset of forums devoted to oneupmanship & pursuing specificity  vis-a-vis tiny details, that no-one much notices if you don't tell them.

 

I've started to admire some of the fantastic 'cheats' done by model companies in the past. 

 

The model that broke open American N gauge as a viable scale, is wrong, if you want to think about it. But seeing as it was such a good runner, and took tooling to a different level, no one noticed.

 

As for Hornby, if they see TT as a way of not having to go down the superdetail road, due to the smaller size, and the fact of high speed requiring more space, in an era where houses are getting smaller, that's good too. 

 

And I guess high speed trains, since they have to be kinda sleek, have less tetchy detail bits on them anyway.

 

I haven't seen a Southern Pacific-style headlight arrangement on too many Chinese high speed trains ;-)  

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by teletougos