Hornby announce TT:120

[BachelorBoy]

16 minutes ago, HSB said:

Japanese H0 is actually 1:80.

You are right.

And it's actually 13.3mm

 

It amuses me that many OO modellers are happy to mix 1/72 and 1/76 but are horrified by the idea of mixing 1/76 and 1/80.

 

[jjb1970]

The gauge scale thing is a bit of a mess in Japan. Non-shinkansen trains are modelled at 1/80 to try and compensate for the narrow gauge but it is still a mismatch. However, standard are also modelled in 1/80 despite 1/87 being correct (or much more correct for the small bit of 4'6"), it's a pragmatic approach given that many enthusiasts will want to run both 3'6" and standard gauge prototypes. However, shinkansen models tend to be true scale (1/87 or 1/160), I guess this is seen as OK since the shinkansen trains at one time were captive to dedicated lines so didn't run with other trains, but that isn't strictly true for the mini-shinkansen trains. The hobby in Japan seems happy to apply a degree of impressionism which British enthusiasts would tend to see negatively.

[The Outcast]

I think if I were just starting out with model railways, and it was 2027, I'd probably have gone for TT due to the greater scale accuracy and smaller size. The reason I say 2027 is because, by that point, I expect they'll have a decent selection of locomotives and rolling stock. The current issue is that you've only got two LNER/BR Eastern Region express locos, an HST which doesn't go with them and fits into the same "express" category and a Class 08 that doesn't fit with anything available. 

 

I think it'd have been better to bring out a Pannier, an Autocoach and a GWR Toad brakevan ASAP. I think the A3, A4 and HST are logical earlybirds, since more casual audiences will want expresses, but the Panniers are also pretty iconic due to their ubiquity, and alone would have been suitable to model a small GWR branchline terminus. Obviously, as a Western Region modeller, I am biased, but the general point seems to have been taken, since Hornby are seemingly going to be announcing an 0-6-0 (probably a Jinty) for phase 2/3 in the next issue of the TT club magazine.

[ellocoloco]

 

12 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

The gauge scale thing is a bit of a mess in Japan.

 

Imon have produced a number of items including the C57 Pacific in 12mm 1/87 known locally as either HOj or HO1067. They are very expensive and made of brass but look fantastic. 

 

https://www.imon.co.jp/

 

Yoshihiro Imon's explanation of Japanese model scales/gauges makes fascinating reading - with google translate.

 

https://www.imon.co.jp/pages/180ho

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, The Outcast said:

I think it'd have been better to bring out a Pannier, an Autocoach and a GWR Toad brakevan ASAP. I think the A3, A4 and HST are logical earlybirds, since more casual audiences will want expresses, but the Panniers are also pretty iconic due to their ubiquity, and alone would have been suitable to model a small GWR branchline terminus. Obviously, as a Western Region modeller, I am biased, but the general point seems to have been taken, since Hornby are seemingly going to be announcing an 0-6-0 (probably a Jinty) for phase 2/3 in the next issue of the TT club magazine.

 

Where have you been hiding! A 57xx Pannier was announced in the catalogue/brochure a year ago, page 9, supposedly in phases 3 or 4, so you'll have a year or two (or three!) to wait but it's coming. As far as I know they haven't announced a Jinty at all, it's just Social Media froth based on the fact that both the Triang 00 and TT ranges back in the 50s had one so it was thought they'd copy that and they said another 0-6-0 steam loco was coming in addition to ones already announced. People making 2+2 = whatever they want, I'm afraid, though I hope they are right as I'd get one. TBH a 2-6-4T like the old HD one would be nice, I do like those locos (and their LMS siblings!) and they were quite widespread.

 

As far as I am concerned a Pannier/Autocoach/Toad would be the last things on my list of wants, though I'm a London Midland (NW) man myself so that's not surprising! But it does show the issues they have. You can't please everyone...

Edited October 27, 2023 by Hobby
More detail

[The Outcast]

1 hour ago, Hobby said:

Where have you been hiding! A 57xx Pannier was announced in the catalogue/brochure a year ago, page 9, supposedly in phases 3 or 4, so you'll have a year or two (or three!) to wait but it's coming. As far as I know they haven't announced a Jinty at all, it's just Social Media froth based on the fact that both the Triang 00 and TT ranges back in the 50s had one so it was thought they'd copy that and they said another 0-6-0 steam loco was coming in addition to ones already announced. People making 2+2 = whatever they want, I'm afraid, though I hope they are right as I'd get one. TBH a 2-6-4T like the old HD one would be nice, I do like those locos (and their LMS siblings!) and they were quite widespread.

Oh, I know a Pannier was announced - what I'm saying is, that should be one of the first things they released, that should be available now, not in two-three years. And I said *probably* a Jinty, not "it's 100% a Jinty". Figured it was the most probable since it's an 0-6-0, isn't an announced one, has that TT history and is one of the more recognisable 0-6-0 loco types. Could be something else, but it probably will be a Jinty. 

[Hobby]

I think they have acknowledged that it will sell by including it on the list in the early stages. But are you really saying that it will sell better than the locos they're already got into or going into production?! I think you've let you love of all things GWR get the better of logic! ;) :)

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'd have thought a "Terrier" might be more likely than a "Jinty". They have a recent OO model to go on, and there are more possible liveries. Also, it could also be a tender loco — I don't think they explicitly said 0-6-0T — although none of their recent OO models looks to be saleable enough for this stage of TT's development — and the 4F they do have is quite old too.

[teletougos]

5 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

And it's actually 13.3mm

 

 

 

 5'3" gauge TT modelling, then? 

[Porfuera]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

A 57xx Pannier was announced in the catalogue/brochure a year ago, page 9, supposedly in phases 3 or 4, so you'll have a year or two (or three!) to wait but it's coming.

 

The original catalogue listed a J94 and a GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier. These were part of a footnote after the Phase 3 and 4 releases that said "Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94, GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier and much more!"

 

But on 25th July there was an announcement on what was to come and this announcement moved the J94 and 57xx forwards into Phase 4:  "Phase Four will see the arrival of the Class 31, again in various liveries and formats. For those interested in steam locomotives 'The Great Western Castle' will be introduced in various liveries and periods as well as two 0-6-0 locomotives namely the LNER/BR J94 and the GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier Tank".

 

However, I'd be inclined to agree that either of these 0-6-0s are at least two or more years away.

 

That said, IIRC the original intention was to have Phases 1 to 4 completed in the first 12 months (or maybe 2 years at the most) but unfortunately for Hornby this didn't happen and so we'll be waiting a while yet.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Porfuera

[AY Mod]

@Phil Parker has been looking at TT stuff at the Great British Model Railway show ahead of opening at Gaydon tomorrow.

 

[andrewshimmin]

The question you have to ask yourself, if you're Hornby wanting to introduce your first 0-6-0T, is "what can I sell most of?".

So yes, it needs to be an iconic and well known prototype, which appeals well beyond people modelling that era/region.

They probably know what that is from their OO sales data...

I think it's sensible they've gone for a Pannier early, as that's probably one of the main contenders (and there are a few livery options). I think a Terrier is a sensible choice also, and an Austerity 0-6-0ST (both have lots of livery choices). I don't see a Jinty being in the same category (black only).

As I said to Simon K a year ago, I think they should go for pre grouping locos which survived well into nationalisation to get the most choice of livery/era. Especially those which ended up quite widely distributed.

A Midland 0-4-4T or LNW 0-6-2T, say. Not sure what the Southern, Western or Eastern equivalents would be.

 

[Jeff Smith]

If a GWR 57xx with early cab could even be in LT livery.

[britishcolumbian]

9 hours ago, ellocoloco said:

 

 

Imon have produced a number of items including the C57 Pacific in 12mm 1/87 known locally as either HOj or HO1067. They are very expensive and made of brass but look fantastic. 

 

https://www.imon.co.jp/

 

Yoshihiro Imon's explanation of Japanese model scales/gauges makes fascinating reading - with google translate.

 

https://www.imon.co.jp/pages/180ho

TTj (1:120 on 9mm track) is also a thing, although very niche and very expensive - Tenshodo did a D51 in the late 1990s and were asking around C$3000 for it back then. Currently I only know of a small number of kits.

[Roy L S]

13 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

As I said to Simon K a year ago, I think they should go for pre grouping locos which survived well into nationalisation to get the most choice of livery/era. Especially those which ended up quite widely distributed.

A Midland 0-4-4T or LNW 0-6-2T, say. Not sure what the Southern, Western or Eastern equivalents would be.

 

Some of the Great Central types would also fit with this idea, I am thinking J11 and ROD 2-8-0 in particular, but I would not expect such a "policy" to be adopted as there would be also quite a risk attached. Good sellers in the OO range would probably be where the process of deciding on further new locos would start from including steam, I would expect them to continue to be looking more towards "low risk" models for the next phases, including prototypes from the "Railroad" range i.e. stalwarts like the GW Large Prairie, 4F 0-6-0, Jinty etc. However any of that is a long way off and does make assumptions based on what "modellers" would probably like to see - we have already been told that the traditional "modeller" is not Hornby's primary target, so they may make entirely different marketing/sales assumptions and choose entirely different locos as a priority - things like the FLIRT. 

 

Roy

[Ravenser]

15 hours ago, AY Mod said:

@Phil Parker has been looking at TT stuff at the Great British Model Railway show ahead of opening at Gaydon tomorrow.

 

 

We may be quite close to 1970s WR being possible in TT120. Several key items are visible there, the 08 fits, we've seen several Hymeks done from Lincoln Locos bodies. 21T minerals, a S Wales speciality, are coming. With 37 and 47 following on , you are largely there - the major missing signature item being a Western . There is a Western body in the Lincoln Locos range, but we need to see someone motorise it in TT120

 

Similarly, once the 37 and 50 are available a Deltic  using a Lincoln Locos body ought to be reasonably practical for the determined. That opens up late 70s/early 80s ER...

 

I hope in 6-9 months we will be able to consign the "but what can you do with Gresley Pacifics????" trope to history (not to mention the "steam isn't where the kids are at" trope) and move on to discussing what can and is being done in TT120 rather than Reasons Why You Can't Do It in TT120

 

And once the 66 is available, 66+ 08 provides a very useful "package" for smaller scale 21st century freight operations

 

(I find myself muttering that deeper ballasting and suitable painting would significantly improve the trackwork in that picture) 

[idd15]

Am at GBMR show today and am one happy bunny because the folks on the Hornby stand confirmed that a Pendolino is on the to do list. Where on the list or when they could not say. 😁

 

HS125 looks and sounds ace, TTA tanks and the hoppers are also looking good!

Go Hornby! 😁😁😁

Cheers

Idd

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

I find myself muttering that deeper ballasting and suitable painting would significantly improve the trackwork in that picture) 

Yes, it looks as though the track is just sitting on top of the ballast.....deeper ballast, overall track colour and just the rail tops shiny would accentuate the correct gauge......

[Ravenser]

23 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Yes, it looks as though the track is just sitting on top of the ballast.....deeper ballast, overall track colour and just the rail tops shiny would accentuate the correct gauge......

 

Agree

 

I think what we are looking at is a ballast mat : javis ballast mat

 

Given that Hornbty Magazine must have put this layout together quite quickly , in the middle of a lot of other work demands, that may be understandable. It would be a quick but neat approach. The "TT:120 is about newbies not established modellers" trope may have been a factor too

 

But ballasted carefully and properly , and painted right , and the track could look a good deal better. 

 

I'm currently fighting with some N gauge ballasting . It is quite difficult and fiddly to get a result that looks decent to my 4mm eyes, and I can't help muttering from time to time that this would all be a good deal easier if everything except the actual ballast were scaled up by a third...

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

Given that Hornbty Magazine must have put this layout together quite quickly ,

 

It's Hornby's own demo layout, not Hornby mag's.

[andrewshimmin]

4 hours ago, Roy L S said:

Some of the Great Central types would also fit with this idea, I am thinking J11 and ROD 2-8-0 in particular, but I would not expect such a "policy" to be adopted as there would be also quite a risk attached. Good sellers in the OO range would probably be where the process of deciding on further new locos would start from including steam, I would expect them to continue to be looking more towards "low risk" models for the next phases, including prototypes from the "Railroad" range i.e. stalwarts like the GW Large Prairie, 4F 0-6-0, Jinty etc. However any of that is a long way off and does make assumptions based on what "modellers" would probably like to see - we have already been told that the traditional "modeller" is not Hornby's primary target, so they may make entirely different marketing/sales assumptions and choose entirely different locos as a priority - things like the FLIRT. 

 

Roy

 

Good call on the GC 2-8-0. You would assume a 4F will come (one is available in a very nice kit form in 3mm scale for 12mm gauge from 3mm Soc).

I was thinking in particular of small tank engines - perhaps a J71 might be a good one for LNER areas? Or an N2 or N7? How about an M7 for Southerners?

I agree about more modern stock - a Flirt would be very nice or a Sprinter of some sort.

[Jeff Smith]

It's nice to speculate, I've done some too, but in all honesty if Hornby's initial target is newcomers and families then the best choices are well known named engines, HSTs, which have been very visible for many years, and locos seen in preservation.  Also railway centres often run mismatched stock, or at least have some in the collections.  An exception of course would be Didcot, but still various eras covered.

 

This also, with Christmas just round the corner, may be why further batches of the Scotsman and Easterner sets are available - this seems to be the production priority.

[Hroth]

1 minute ago, Jeff Smith said:

This also, with Christmas just round the corner, may be why further batches of the Scotsman and Easterner sets are available

 

Hornby could ring the changes with the sets, putting a FS loco in "The Scotsman" rather than Blink Bonney and an alternative A4 in "The Easterner".  Once that got out, the completists would buy, buy, buy, and the ordinary customer would be attracted to "The Scotsman" like wasps to jam...

 

[Johan DC]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

 

 

This also, with Christmas just round the corner, may be why further batches of the Scotsman and Easterner sets are available - this seems to be the production priority.

Last year, they were too late. So Imho, it's quite important to have enough in stock this time. 

[Jeff Smith]

10 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Last year, they were too late. So Imho, it's quite important to have enough in stock this time. 

And DC is the best cost effective way to get started.  The track packs are also great add-on gifts.