Hornby announce TT:120

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, andythenorth said:

£100 on it?  Revisit in 2027?

 

I guess I put them in a box where if the price is fair, I'm happy with what I get from Hornby.  1980s BR coaches at £34 where the Bachmann ones are about £60, even if the colours are off.  But then again...HAAs at £28 where Accurascale will do better ones at £25.  The 87 might have some issues, but I paid a lot less than I'm paying for Heljan 86s or Bachmann 90s. Reaching for some jargon, I've already applied a discount value to Hornby.

If Hornby are still introducing new models by 2027, I reckon it'll have "taken root". 

 

My gut feeling is that the decisive point will be three years from launch, by which time Hornby should know how the real economics stack up.

 

John

Edited October 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Zunnan]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Maybe some customers think that TT standards will be just as good as OO if they look at catalogue/web images? 😎

 

 

 

 

How about the HAA with the same cradle mistake and rather beefy metal buffers, or the 66 with the Lima-esque chassis? They've sure been busy cutting and pasting that bugs head coupler!

 

I think there is quite some misconception about how small TT1:120 actually is. Going off European models is a bit of a false start as they are prototypically quite a bit larger. A typical Stanier 57 footer will be 27mm longer, 6.5mm higher and a shade over 4mm wider than its N Gauge counterpart. I personally expect to see detail on par with current N Gauge offerings, but widened over cylinders and valve gear to compensate for the much closer to prototype track gauge and chunky wheels needed to negotiate setrack.

 

I look forward to the range expanding, when they get round to the Black 5 I'll have a punt.

[newbryford]

11 hours ago, Mb1984 said:

Surprised they haven’t done the class 800 and some sort of freightliner wagon.

 

I thought KFA container flat was on the list.

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Roughly what you could fit in 8' 3" x 5' 6" in OO.

 

A quadruple track mainline with junction station to an elevated branch line, 12 road engine shed - including turntable - and two goods yards.

And a bus on a bridge

 

(Or that's what appeared on some plans I've seen.)

[SteamingWales]

Might have already been mentioned but has anyone had any success with the first TT blog

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/train-terminal/onward-journey

 

I have joined the club (out of interest) but cannot access the full article. What can be seen of it there appears to be a lot more info with actual photos of models and EPs

[Taigatrommel]

Some observations from someone who models German TT...

 

Code 80 track is what Tillig use.  IMO it does look very heavy.  Taking stills from a video, I don't think it's Tillig track though, the chairs having no bolt detail.  The sleeper colour and general construction style looks like Kuehn's, but Kuehn use code 70ish and again, the chairs have more detail.

 

Hornby track (still from video)

 

Kuehn track (on my kitchen table)

 

My Arnold (Hornby production) TT locos run as smoothly as I would expect from any current generation model.  I have a 2-10-2 steam loco and a few electrics, plus a couple of small shunters (ASF and Köf).  The 4 wheel shunters are not something you'd want to run over dead frog track though.  Curiously, though current draw is well within spec, they overload Zimo/Bachmann Next18 decoders after a relatively short period of continuous running.  This is the same in other TT locos I have with Next18 sockets  I haven't had the same problems with other decoder brands (eg Kuehn), and the Next18s I took out my TT stock seem to work fine in Farish N gauge.

 

The coupling style has a slight improvement over Tillig's, which is an alignment whisker on the bottom - this really aids coupling up on where the track is less than perfect or NEM pockets are a bit droopy.  Kuehn and Busch both sell their stock with this style of coupling too.  It's 100% compatible with Tillig couplings.  On the subject of couplings, the socket is the same as N gauge, so there are plenty of aftermarket options.

 

My opinion on this?  I'm looking at the British N I've collected over the last couple of years and strongly debating its future in my possession...

[franciswilliamwebb]

4 minutes ago, SteamingWales said:

I have joined the club (out of interest) but cannot access the full article. What can be seen of it there appears to be a lot more info with actual photos of models and EPs

 

Same here, the "read more" link just goes to my account/profile page.

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

 

I'd also suggest your average model railway shop is a intimidating confusing place for the 'average' punter.  Usually your the only person in the shop, likely the owner glaring at you over his glasses.  Most seem.to.cultivate an environment that doesn't encourage the casual browser (and yeah Bob at your local shop always makes you a cup of tea and is up for a chat, but you've probably spent a few grands worth with Bob over the last.10 year.

 

 

No idea on what you base this statement but I feel truly sorry for you. 

 

The retailers I am familiar with and regular visitor to are as far away from your comments as it's possible to be. 

 

Rob

 

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'd also suggest your average model railway shop is a intimidating confusing place for the 'average' punter.  Usually your the only person in the shop, likely the owner glaring at you over his glasses.  Most seem.to.cultivate an environment that doesn't encourage the casual browser (and yeah Bob at your local shop always makes you a cup of tea and is up for a chat, but you've probably spent a few grands worth with Bob over the last.10 year.

 

I've been in a lot of model shops over the years and can only think of one establishment that sounds like this - and it has long since closed down. However, I've been to a lot where people have enjoyed excellent customer service, even if they haven't spent a grand.

 

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Interestingly this news has slipped between the gaps of the model rail press, further more the quirk of the timing means that the publisher who pays a fee to be 'THE Hornby magazine' will be last to the newsstands with the news. 

 

It was embaroged until yesterday, that's why you haven't seen it in any magazines yet. However, there is plenty on the leading model railway news channels, including an interview with Simon K, and a closer look at the models themselves.

[Geep7]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Interestingly this news has slipped between the gaps of the model rail press, further more the quirk of the timing means that the publisher who pays a fee to be 'THE Hornby magazine' will be last to the newsstands with the news.  So most people curious about tt120 will have discovered it online, they're likely to buy it online.

There is a 3 page spread about it in the latest issue of Railway Modeller, which is out this week.

[DavidLong]

18 hours ago, DavidLong said:

One thought. After more than a century's development in the hobby, the poor old Brits finally have a commercial scale/gauge combination which is correct. I think that at least Peco, Hornby and Heljan deserve a +1 for that.

 

David

 

Just to add that I wasn't ignoring 0 scale. 0 Fine at 31.5/32mm gauge is pretty close and S7 at 33mm is correct. However, 0 was already an established scale before the rise of the commercial smaller scales in the inter-war period. H0 was already there but it was (the original) Hornby that began the bastardisation of the scale/gauge combination for the UK, something that was continued by Triang with TT3 and Peco with 'British' N.

We have lived with the consequences of those decisions to this day.

 

David

[Zunnan]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

I'd also suggest your average model railway shop is a intimidating confusing place for the 'average' punter.  Usually your the only person in the shop, likely the owner glaring at you over his glasses.  Most seem.to.cultivate an environment that doesn't encourage the casual browser (and yeah Bob at your local shop always makes you a cup of tea and is up for a chat, but you've probably spent a few grands worth with Bob over the last.10 year.

 

Are you sure you're not mixing up social anxiety issues with model shop proprietors being on the whole extremely helpful and knowledgeable? I can only think of a former shop in Warwick as being anywhere near unpleasant. Everywhere else I've been up and down the country I've been met with nothing but a smile and advice when asked for. I don't know what shops you're going into to feel so put out, but the most intimidating place I can think of is Tutbury Models where you're greeted with a cheery 'ow do's duck, if you need a hand wi owt gissa shout'.

[Hobby]

43 minutes ago, Taigatrommel said:

Code 80 track is what Tillig use

 

They use code 83, not 80, though the two can be coupled together with no issues, I've been doing it for decades with Tillig and Roco H0e code 83 and Peco's code 80s.

[Hobby]

2 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

 

Are you sure you're not mixing up social anxiety issues with model shop proprietors being on the whole extremely helpful and knowledgeable? I can only think of a former shop in Warwick as being anywhere near unpleasant. Everywhere else I've been up and down the country I've been met with nothing but a smile and advice when asked for. I don't know what shops you're going into to feel so put out, but the most intimidating place I can think of is Tutbury Models where you're greeted with a cheery 'ow do's duck, if you need a hand wi owt gissa shout'.

 

To be fair to the OP on this I have also experienced what he's said, probably from proprietors who have experienced people not known to them coming in and stealing stuff so they tend to keep a closer eye on you than those they know. It can come across in the way he described. Most proprietors are fine once they know you, it's just getting over that initial stage on both sides that can be an issue.

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Zunnan said:

 

Agreed, but Hornbys wheel standards on 00 over the last few years has been rather hit and miss at best so I wouldn't put it past them to do something completely different to what is already in their portfolio. The B2 pecketts for example with their rather deep flanges.

 

Hornby aren't alone in this, but frankly it's a bl**dy tiresome and juvenile approach to selling in a market like 00 and in TT120 they should be following the NEM standard, no excuses if they aren't.  Sadly there is a whiff of "we don't like playing with the other kids so we've bought our own playground" about this project which is nothing at all to do with the pros and cons of TT120 per se, but has Hornby written all over it.  They've made some very nice models indeed over the years but I do wish they'd get some help with their corporate personality disorders.

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Pmorgancym said:

Or it could be the opposite.  They set them selves up to be pretty much the only shown in town, they can set the standards, they can set the pricing.  This is a return to the good old days for them.  They are likely to be the only mainstream producer in this scale.

Which could cut either way....

 

There's an argument that "the good old days" are gone forever, for everybody.

[kevinlms]

23 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I agree, they are attempting to grow/grab a market outside of the modelling community, create a new group of 'Hornby' enthusiasts who would never look at a different type of box - those who did not know about Bachmann or Heljan and would happily buy a Lima heritage class 66.

 

And with the first two sets they are targetting Grandparents who remember TT and thinking about buying a set for their grandchildren - an A4 and an A3 - very red box thinking.

Great Grandparents who remember TT, is more like it. Tri-ang stopped TT many years ago now.

[TT-Pete]

14 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Great Grandparents who remember TT, is more like it. Tri-ang stopped TT many years ago now.

 

In 1968.

 

[MarkSG]

23 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

So what realistic stock is there for the 66’s to pull as I don’t think the Colas and GBRF are compatible with more than two tank liveries. 
Plus what is there that would pull 7 plk private owner wagons? 
Not exactly joined up thinking on the first release for scale modelling 😉

 

These aren't really aimed at the likes of us. This is aimed fair and square at the train set market. At the people who'd quite like a train set, but haven't really got the space for OO. The people who, on the whole, just like to see trains running and don't care that much about authenticity.

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

It was embaroged until yesterday, that's why you haven't seen it in any magazines yet. However, there is plenty on the leading model railway news channels, including an interview with Simon K, and a closer look at the models themselves.

 

Having looked at the sample models, I notice I'm automatically reading them as OO not N , even though they are physically much closer to N than OO

 

So I "read" the bogie wheels  on the A4  as a bit 1980s with their deep flanges, and the bolts holding the motion together as chunky. But otherwise pretty good. However in the not too distant past bogie wheels on N gauge steam were little ball bearings where the shiny flanges top and bottom pretty well equalled the diameter of the actual wheel

 

Perhaps it's because my background is 4mm . But the fact I'm reading these models as "a little off the pace for new high-spec OO" is quite a tribute to the standard being achieved here in 2.5mm scale

 

Again by 4mm standards the 08 looks pretty acceptable...

 

I'd say Hornby are going to deliver greater finesse detail and presence than is available in modern N

 

People are sucking their teeth at the decision to use code 80 track for what will be a settrack range. However remember that code 80 is what a large majority of N gauge modellers use, in a smaller scale.,

 

I  can see how Hornby can sell this as  "a small size - but with better models than you get in N"

 

I remain of the view this is a big risk to Hornby . It's the biggest product announcement in my lifetime (and I'm not a spring chicken). And I don't recall such a level of negativity and hostility in response to a major product announcement, ever, The general tone is not "wow, mind-blowing" but rather "well, it may not be a total write-off..."  That bodes ill

 

However - Hornby, unlike Bachmann and Dapol - had no smaller scale offering.  Just OO. Rather than try to carve out a small footprint in a small and semi-saturated market , they've decided to offer a different product in competition. "Bigger and better than N" is the real push here

 

Bold, high risk, and maybe it will work 

 

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'm too committed in other scales and projects to give it a go myself , certainly for the next 5 years. But I find it an intriguing option)

 

[Dunsignalling]

31 minutes ago, TT-Pete said:

 

In 1968.

 

54 years ago, and a generation is what, 22 years?

[Geep7]

8 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

These aren't really aimed at the likes of us. This is aimed fair and square at the train set market. At the people who'd quite like a train set, but haven't really got the space for OO. The people who, on the whole, just like to see trains running and don't care that much about authenticity.

If this is the case, I think this mind-set is really short sighted. Surely it's the modeller market that would give the range longevity, rather than the family train-set market.

 

There is no after-market support in this scale, as yet, except for the Peco track and building range, a few bits from Gaugemaster, and a loco from Heljan. No wagon kits, transfers, etc. although i'm sure this might change IF the scale proves popular......

[Legend]

19 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And Simon Kohler did state no big announcement in January, announcements will be trickled throughout the year which is as per everyone else.  But whether this is all scales are just TT I don't know, I would be cautious of them making a big statement in January about OO when TT is going to be the priority for the foreseeable if early take up is good.

no I’m sure he said somewhere we will still see investment in OO in December / January . So  I think you’ll have OO with big announcement and TT throughout the year, at least until they build the range which look to be items already in OO range 

[Pmorgancym]

2 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

Might have already been mentioned but has anyone had any success with the first TT blog

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/train-terminal/onward-journey

 

I have joined the club (out of interest) but cannot access the full article. What can be seen of it there appears to be a lot more info with actual photos of models and EPs

66 with the air dam on the bogies rather than body mount seems a bit of a step back from the railroad model, shame as there appears to be a good deal of fine detail on the chassis

Edited October 11, 2022 by Pmorgancym

[Miss Prism]

8 minutes ago, Legend said:

no I’m sure he said somewhere we will still see investment in OO in December / January . So  I think you’ll have OO with big announcement and TT throughout the year, at least until they build the range which look to be items already in OO range 

 

At the bottom of this, there are bean counters counting their beans. It is clear Hornby has already spent a large amount of money on TT120, and will be spending even more money on it in the future. The OO investment pot must have got smaller, comparatively, as a result.

 

Which would explain why Hornby has been so quiet this year!