Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

 

It take a special skill to lay track like that.

DId you do your Permanent Way apprenticeship with the National Coal Board?

[johndon]

My layout, a model of a real location, is built on flat boards however, parts of the track are certainly not level and there are embankments on either side of the lines.  In the photo below, the two tracks in the centre are level, the two on the left are dropping down and the tracks on the right are climbing:

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

It take a special skill to lay track like that.

DId you do your Permanent Way apprenticeship with the National Coal Board?

No, it was with the Maumee & Western 🤣🤣🤣

 

https://diegobraghi.blogspot.com/2017/07/the-worst-tracks-we-have-ever-seen.html?m=1

[St Enodoc]

5 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

Promised but not still not put up yet.

 

You started this thread with your observations of videos of layouts about not changing lamps, although you do say you do it on your own layout.

Isn't it about time you proved how easy it was with a video?

Perhaps he (like me) doesn't do videos.

[Steamport Southport]

Flat you say?

 

Apart from the elevation to the coaling tower it's a billiard table....

 

 

 

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/310/the-1932-engine-shed-when-new

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I'm happy to describe the lamps process again, but tbh do not feel minded to video it just to satisfy Newbryford whose repeated pleadings have become slightly tiresome; can't work out how to hold the phone and change the lamps at the same time though some sort of arrangement with clamps might work but I've better things to do with my time, such as running correctly lamped model trains.  I’m limited to 10mb upload anyway, so it wouldn’t be much of a video!  In any case, I do not feel the need to prove to anyone else that I do this, I know that I do this which is plenty enough for me...

 

Cwmdimbath runs to a real time WTT, and as a busy South Wales Valley BLT with a colliery yard to be shunted, there isn't a lot of time when something isn't moving.  I use 'Cwmdimbath Time', currently suspended at 09.15; the pickup is on it's way up the valley, a colliery clearance is waiting in the platform road for it to arrive so that it can proceed to Ogmore Jc., and Forest No.1 has just brought two empty opens up from the colliery yard ready for collection by the pickup, which is bringing some building supples for the canteen and shower block under construction.  Nothing is moving because the electric clock that is Cwmdimbath time is switched off.  'The Rules' are that no movements can take place when the clock is off, or during the (fairly rare) periods of condensed time at slack periods.  Cwmdimbath is pretty basic as far as the trackplan goes, but the timetable is based on a real one that I have in my posession for Abergwynfi, a couple of valleys over, in 1960; 13 passenger trains between 05.50 and 23.55, not including workmens', pickup, or minerals.

 

So, lamp changing takes place during suspended, switched off time, which means that I can crane shunt locos or stock off the track to make it easier.  Modelu 3D printed lamps are used, despite not being really robust enough (the handles break off when you look hard enough at them), because they have slots in bottom that enable you to place them on the brackets, then replace and/or repositon them.  Springsides can be used with holes drilled in the bottom, but do not fit as easily on the brackets or are too loose.  Older models that are not fitted with lamp brackets and some earlier Bachmann locos that have oversized brackets have my own, homemade, brackets which are basically Rexel no.13 staples cut to size and painted.  The lamps can be picked up and put on brackets between my chubby little thumb and forefinger, but care needs to be taken as they are easy to drop and sacrifice to the Carpet Monster, which sometimes unexpectedly gives them back.  Brake van side lamps are removed for reversal to show red to rear and white to front, though I am trying to devise a system where they can simply be turned around on the bracket; problem is that they need to fit reasonably tightly so as not to fall off and get lost, and revolving them on the bracket damages the slot in the bottom.

 

Probably because I worked on the real railway and still instinctively check passing trains to see if their tail lamps are correctly displayed and the loco rear lamps are off when the train is coupled to it despite not having been paid to do so since 1978, can't help myself, and I imagine most former railwaymen are the same, I cannot run trains without correct lamps, it's just too stressful for me, it looks and feels wrong!!! 

 

Now, this makes no sense, in that I'm fully aware but not overly bothered that my 00 track is the wrong gauge and that my RTR flanges are hideously overscale, also that the distance between stock whose buffer heads should be touching is ridiculously large, because of my highly unprototypical tension lock couplings which I use because I no longer have the eyesight or steadiness of hand to manage scale couplings.  But I can sort of mentally tune these inaccuracies out, as I make chuff chuff noises and imagine steam blasting from the chimney as 4218 gets another load of coal under way; my disbelief suspension filters somehow allow those things.  Yet I can't be doing with unlamped trains, and even less with incorrectly lamped ones.  I have no explanation for this, beyond saying that it's just how I am!

 

It can't be done without the hand of god, but neither can shunting with scale couplings, and the hand of god operates the turnouts on my layout as well.  But it can be done, and I do it as a normal part of my operation of the layout.  It is satisfying becaue it is correct procedure and you do it by hand, same as you do on real railways.  Lighting the lamps has defeated me so far; one can obtain lit lamps but they are fed from the track and cannot be removed from the brackets.  I have an auto train with button cell powered lit headlamps at each end, and colour the tail lamp with red felt tip then wipe it off when the train arrives at Cwmdimbath, then colour the loco lamp red, which is not really satisfactory as the lamps become stained red after a few uses and need replacing.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by The Johnster

[Chris M]

You don't need to be a great carpenter to make a successful open top layout. I know because I have made four now and I am certainly more bodger than carpenter. They all worked fine though and all coped with numerous exhibitions. You can see the poor standard of my woodwork here.

 

I effectively design a baseboard "kit" and then build it. I accept this takes a bit of working out.

 

I just think a layout is so much better when the track looks like it has been forged through the land. 

 

 

Of course others might say I should have used code 40 rail rather than code 55 etc etc but one of the most interesting things about exhibitions is seeing what folk have decided is important to them and what isn't. Nobody is right or wrong; its just different choices.

For me some of the important things are - I like to start & stop smoothly (even though I do N), all the stock must be mildly weathered, steam locos must have real coal in the tender, front couplings must be removed and detail added (unless they need a coupling at each end for operational reasons) and signals must work. Having said that I am quite prepared to run a dodgy brake van railtour along the main line. Well you have to add some something don't you?

 

 

Overall I would hope this reaches acceptable standards for an exhibition for most visitors. It meets my standards so I am happy with it.  This layout has done 6 shows in the last year and worked perfectly (apart from operator error) every time. Nobody has criticised it within my hearing range and many have enjoyed it. So far as I am concerned that is a success. Exhibiting is great but it is also tiring and you have to accept an occasional bit of damage may occur. This layout is now safely retired from exhibiting and will stay in my railway room at home.

[johndon]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

So, lamp changing takes place during suspended, switched off time, which means that I can crane shunt locos or stock off the track to make it easier.

 

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but are you saying that you remove the rolling stock from the layout, change the lamps and then put it back on? 

[newbryford]

On 24/10/2022 at 03:21, The Johnster said:

I’ll try and arrange video evidence for you,

 

 

 

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'm happy to describe the lamps process again, but tbh do not feel minded to video it just to satisfy Newbryford whose repeated pleadings have become slightly tiresome; can't work out how to hold the phone and change the lamps at the same time though some sort of arrangement with clamps might work  

 

 

 

 

 

Do you not have any friends that could help?

Can a fellow club member not provide suitable camera holding services?

Edited November 5, 2022 by newbryford

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but are you saying that you remove the rolling stock from the layout, change the lamps and then put it back on? 

Real life Dr strange from marvel comics....can suspend time!🤣

 

But your train set your rules! Would be hard to explain to Joe public at show what you where doing....they would think you loco had stalled 

One rule one for one another rule one for someone else,.

Edited November 5, 2022 by bradfordbuffer

[Michael Hodgson]

6 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

One issue I have is that there's a section of baseboard in front of a door. Currently it's a crawl-under but at some point I intend to make it a lift out. Ideally I'd like it to be hinged. But on the door-side of the board the track is 50mm high so that complicates any hinging action. My solution at the moment is to keep crawling underneath. I'm only 56 and currently of the opinion that it's good exercise although my knees are beginning to complain a bit.

I knew a chap who was still crawling through spaces like that in his 80s, alas no longer with us.  He was an excellent modeller and had designed the layout based on his experience of cramped spaces as an officer in a tank regiment during WW2. 

 

He wore his beret when operating the railway, useful to minimise head injuries whilst underneath (especially if like me you don't have a lot of hair) - though not as effective as the crash helmets which he campaigned to make compulsory for motorcylists.

 

I've had a knee replacement and can't now kneel, so I find low baseboards diffifult and I use a mechanics creeper to get under the boards.  I suggest you get round to fitting hinges.

[bradfordbuffer]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

 

I've had a knee replacement and can't now kneel, so I find low baseboards diffifult and I use a mechanics creeper to get under the boards.  I suggest you get round to fitting hinges.

What to your knee? Bit extreme 

Edited November 5, 2022 by bradfordbuffer

[AndrueC]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I knew a chap who was still crawling through spaces like that in his 80s, alas no longer with us.  He was an excellent modeller and had designed the layout based on his experience of cramped spaces as an officer in a tank regiment during WW2. 

 

He wore his beret when operating the railway, useful to minimise head injuries whilst underneath (especially if like me you don't have a lot of hair) - though not as effective as the crash helmets which he campaigned to make compulsory for motorcylists.

 

I've had a knee replacement and can't now kneel, so I find low baseboards diffifult and I use a mechanics creeper to get under the boards.  I suggest you get round to fitting hinges.

Yeah it's on a list ;)

 

Unfortunately it means preparing four lines of track and that's a little bit scary. My track is mounted on foam underlay so I've already discovered that trying to drive a track pin through can damage the sleeper ties. I'm thinking of cutting away the underlay around the join then using the PCB trick to secure the ends. But I've only just laid the track this year so would rather get some running out of it before I risk damaging it.

[Reorte]

17 hours ago, Chris M said:

Everyone will judge layouts at exhibitions based on what is and isn’t important to them. In many years of exhibiting I can’t recall hearing any really negative comments from visitors. On the other hand I have had a fair few folk look down their noses and quickly walk on. That’s fine, no layout will appeal to everyone. Enjoy the chats with the folk that like your layout and don’t worry about the others. One of the oddest things about exhibiting is the number of visitors who seem to think the exhibitors can’t hear them when they are talking to their mate and commenting on your layout.

 

I quite often quickly walk on, but if you see me doing that please don't regard it as a slight!

 

I usually spend considerably more time on the first few layouts I look at, but unfortunately after that if I'm there for five minutes at one that's a long  time. In a way my enthusiasm dries up (I say "in a way" because I almost always come home from an exhibition with enthusiasm for modelling renewed). I might also be wandering around trying to find layouts I'd made my mind up beforehand to see. Sometimes if there are a lot of people crowding one I'll look elsewhere for now. And yes, some simply don't do anything for me, but we've all got our own preferences. Mine aren't always easy to put my finger on, because what I'm interested in and not in reality quite frequently doesn't reflect very well in which layouts I end up enjoying watching - a good layout is a good layout whatever it's of.

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, johndon said:

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but are you saying that you remove the rolling stock from the layout, change the lamps and then put it back on? 

 

Can you imagine what would be said if you did that at an exhibition?

(Or in a video)

 

That's way beyond worse than not having lamps/incorrect lamps. IMO of course.

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by newbryford

[boxbrownie]

15 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Flat baseboard - yes. But flat track - no. Inclines aren't that difficult to do. I find them quite easy in fact - most of mine on my current layout are also curved. However you do need space if you're going to have inclines. Even in N scale you need two meters to rise and another two to fall (one metre might be adequate) if you want track to cross over the top of track. As with my previous layout I made use of a mezzanine to allow the rise and fall to occur in two stages.

 

I suppose one advantage of N scale is that you don't need particularly strong construction for an incline - I used cardboard/plasticard and polystyrene - but I wouldn't think you need amazing carpentry skills for OO either.

 

Still - if you have decent carpentry skills an open frame layout has to be the way to go. It's just that a lot of us don't have those skills so we have to buy baseboard kits and that means traditional frame+baseboard.

 

I’m not sure inclines make it realistic, interesting more likely but on the prototype inclines to the observer are virtually imperceptible, now I know somebody will post a heavily compressed telephoto shot of a railway incline that looks obvious 🤣

 

But viewing from lineside it’s hard to know which way an incline is going!

 

I’ve got inclines on my N gauge Japanese layout, but that’s because in Japan raised rail track is all too common, and very obvious especially in cities.

[whart57]

15 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Flat baseboard - yes. But flat track - no. Inclines aren't that difficult to do.

 

 

If the baseboard isn't flat then the track can be. Real life inclines are pretty flat anyway and just as a sub eight foot radius curve (minus continuous check rail)  is departure from reality then so is a 1 in 20 incline masquerading as a 1 in 160.

[AndrueC]

8 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

If the baseboard isn't flat then the track can be. Real life inclines are pretty flat anyway and just as a sub eight foot radius curve (minus continuous check rail)  is departure from reality then so is a 1 in 20 incline masquerading as a 1 in 160.

True but that speaks to the heart of this discussion. At an exhibition should a layout be 'interesting' or 'accurate'. I think it depends on the type of exhibition. More specifically on the demographic of the attendees. If most of the attendees are members of the general public then interest is what matters. But if most of the attendees are fellow modellers (especially if they have a particular specialism in common) then accuracy is what matters.

[Mark Saunders]

1 minute ago, AndrueC said:

True but that speaks to the heart of this discussion. At an exhibition should a layout be 'interesting' or 'accurate'. I think it depends on the type of exhibition. More specifically on the demographic of the attendees. If most of the attendees are members of the general public then interest is what matters. But if most of the attendees are fellow modellers (especially if they have a particular specialism in common) then accuracy is what matters.

Everyone brings their own prejudices with them!

 

 

[bradfordbuffer]

4 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

True but that speaks to the heart of this discussion. At an exhibition should a layout be 'interesting' or 'accurate'. I think it depends on the type of exhibition. More specifically on the demographic of the attendees. If most of the attendees are members of the general public then interest is what matters. But if most of the attendees are fellow modellers (especially if they have a particular specialism in common) then accuracy is what matters.

Praise the Lord......some one has found a nail and hit it smack on the head!

[AndrueC]

29 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Praise the Lord......some one has found a nail and hit it smack on the head!

't weren't me. I glue my track down 😃

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, AndrueC said:

Yeah it's on a list ;)

 

Unfortunately it means preparing four lines of track and that's a little bit scary. My track is mounted on foam underlay so I've already discovered that trying to drive a track pin through can damage the sleeper ties. I'm thinking of cutting away the underlay around the join then using the PCB trick to secure the ends. But I've only just laid the track this year so would rather get some running out of it before I risk damaging it.

If you have problems with the track pins being too harsh and “pulling” the sleepers, either predrill the sleepers with clearance holes or do the same and use screws, I used Trix ballasted track and it uses tiny screws to hold it down and it is so easy to hold the track firm without crushing anything or too much, and if track is needed to be moved it’s simple to do without damaging anything. They are Trix HO track fixing screws, cross head.

[whart57]

1 hour ago, AndrueC said:

True but that speaks to the heart of this discussion. At an exhibition should a layout be 'interesting' or 'accurate'.

 

IMO "interesting" is all that matters. But then I no longer look at MRJ because too much of it falls into the accurate but boring category.

 

However that doesn't mean that accuracy, if achievable without losing interest, doesn't matter. There is no excuse for slapdash work.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

2 minutes ago, whart57 said:

There is no excuse for slapdash work.

You dont fit smart meters then,beware of the hype folks.

[ianathompson]

A few more thoughts upon this subject, which initially purported to be about model railway operation.

(Taken from the website but possibly relevant.)

 

The actual running of trains on our layouts comes down to an attitude of mind. It is not my intention to be prescriptive but simply to provoke some thought as to what we are trying to replicate. At the end of the day model railway operation amounts to little more than playing trains, derogatory as some may find that phrase. It just depends whether you wish to play like Real Madrid or the Dog & Duck on Sunday morning!

 

It is interesting to note that the incompetence exhibited by the Dog & Duck, and generally accepted by bystanders, might not be so well received in other spheres of the 'performing arts'. As a church chorister, singing cathedral style music on a weekly basis with a choir that aims at a professional standards, I can well imagine the reaction to the Dog & Duck's equivalent rendition of the Messiah. What would be said if the conductor could not read music and had never seen the score, the singers were dumb and the orchestra did not know how to play their instruments?!

 

Light the blue touchpaper and retire?

It is November 5th after all!

 

Best of luck to all those exhibiting this afternoon.

I hope be standing in the cold and rain watching local rugby.

 

Ian t