Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[Chris M]

I should have held back on my comments above. I’ve just realised I will be looking after a completely flat layout at Warley NEC show. 
 

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I should have held back on my comments above. I’ve just realised I will be looking after a completely flat layout at Warley NEC show. 
 

Stick a small piece of 2x4 under one support leg - it won't be flat anymore 😃

[ardbealach]

Or back in the day you could have taken it to Stafford  Show cowshed. (Alisdair) 

[BoD]

You can’t all be members of the flat earth society.

[The Johnster]

As the OP who started all the trouble, it is only fair to mention that my own layout is completely flat, pancake flat, been run over by a steam roller, flatter than 2-day-old beer, flatter than Twiggy (who remembers her, nowadays) or Holland, though I have sort of modelled a mountain on it, the support framework of which is old cardboard boxes... 

 

I absolutely agree that 'railway passing through countryside' is the way to go, embankments and cuttings on open frame baseboards supporting the trackbed, but my woodworking isn't up to it, and the skip-raided Ikea 'Lack' shelves that form the actual baseboards were the right price.  In other words, it's a cheapskate bodge, but I try to operate it as correctly as I can.  I don't intend to ever exhibit it, too stressful, so the weight and bodgery are not an issue.

 

Railways in the South Wales Valleys, my area, were/are in general a combination of two sorts, either a shelf cut out of the mountainside or running along the valley floor alongside the river.  Valley floor space was usually very limited, though the Rhondda above Ystrad has some.  Both situations resulted in some stations having staggered platforms to fit themselves on to the restricted sites.

 

A typical situation would be a colliery with the rail yard at the lowest level and the shaft and pithead buildings a little way up the mountain (Cwm, Ynyshir), which meant that the passage of raised coal at the surface could be assisted by gravity on it's journey from pithead to wagons, which I have managed to model.  In some places this arrangement was reversed, with the colliery squeezed into the valley floor, and the railway ran above it along a hillside shelf, with the exchange sidings a little way down the valley to ease the gradient between them (Merthyr Vale, Dyffryn Rhondda).  At Big Pit, Blaenafon, the railway is up the mountain a bit and the colliery is up the mountain a bit more...

 

So a flat baseboard can be got away with over a short distance, but will start to drop away towards the sea in one direction or climb towards the head of the valley in the other before very long...

Edited November 4, 2022 by The Johnster

[Danemouth]

Like The Johnster my layout Danemouth is flat for the simple reason my skill level will not permit any fancy baseboards, inclines etc. if I am to have anything approaching an acceptable and reliable level of running.

 

Dave

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Everyone will judge layouts at exhibitions based on what is and isn’t important to them. In many years of exhibiting I can’t recall hearing any really negative comments from visitors. On the other hand I have had a fair few folk look down their noses and quickly walk on. That’s fine, no layout will appeal to everyone. Enjoy the chats with the folk that like your layout and don’t worry about the others. One of the oddest things about exhibiting is the number of visitors who seem to think the exhibitors can’t hear them when they are talking to their mate and commenting on your layout.

I’ve seen some quite poor layouts TBH, but I know absolutely that they are the best the builder could achieve and rightly proud of them, so I still enjoy viewing them.

[Chris M]

My comments on flat layouts relate to my particular pet dislike. Most folk aren’t too worried about this and that’s fine. Hopefully it helps to illustrate that there are many, many aspects to design, build and operation of a layout. Layout builders will plan to make a layout that suits what they feel is important.  It could be argued that if you don’t like a layout it is because you don’t understand what the builder was trying to achieve. I consider all layouts to be a moving 3D work of art even though I don’t necessarily understand them.😉

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Well it's the run up to warley show....I'm assisting newbryford with his flat baseboard trainset! Deadmans Lane.....without a station! and judging by responses on this thread I feel like everyone the other side of the barriers are going to be judging us! Every time we run through a set of points...smack two trains together without stopping a scale 6ft before coupling up...rerailing a train that has trundled round all morning then decides to derail a bogie at the fourth coach.....some one slips through a red aspect! ....when we use a wood kebab stick un couple (shunting pole) and every other mechanical and electrical defect that WILL happen!

 

It's a model trainset....use your imagination to blank out the bits you don't like....or catch train to Didcot and visit Pendon!

 

If you wish to judge....don't judge me judge Mick it's his !....I just own the cxxk ups

That sounds like every layout I have exhibited or been invited to help operate. I still go back for more F U N.

 

7 hours ago, Old Gringo said:

(iii) or another of my own personal 'hang-ups' - presentation and lighting.

Hi Old Grigo

 

I have a problem with lighting my small exhibition layout. It is 6 ft 8 1/2 ins long and 1 ft wide. It stands no higher than a normal table, I don't like standing for 2 days so operate by sitting in a normal height chair which all venues can provide. Plus small kids and parents like it, no having to be lifted up. The layout legs fold up reducing the amount of separate items that could be left at home, a lesson learnt when helping a mate and one of our crew had to dash to B&Q, buy some wood, screws and a saw before opening time of the show.  Layout and stock fit wonderfully in our Peugeot 107 and on arrival at the show I can transport everything on a small fold up barrow.  At Ally Pally I was leaving with the last of the punters with everything on the barrow.

 

Now if I had say an LED strip for that to illuminate the layout effectively it would need to be 2 ft to 2ft 6 ins higher, thus obstructing the view of anyone over 4ft 11 1/2 ins high. I could have a higher lighting rig but something like LED strip would be lighting the surrounding area not the layout. I could have spot lights which would give a more direct light on the train set below but would require a more substantial support. As the layout is only a foot wide  a high up heavy lighting rig could unbalance the layout should it be supporting the lighting rig. The answer to that would be a self supporting lighting rig. I have worked out that the lighting rig would take up as much room in the car as the layout and stock.

 

I could make the layout higher, that would mean a stronger subframe to prevent the layout from toppling over as its center of gravity would be a lot higher, again defeating the ability to shift everything on one fold up barrow. Plus my dislike of having to stand all exhibition would require me to take some bar stools as well. As it is at the moment all stock and the layout are below window height in our small car, so when parked up at places like service stations it is less of an invitation to the opportunistic thief.

 

So you are going to have to dislike my layout.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[boxbrownie]

13 minutes ago, Chris M said:

My comments on flat layouts relate to my particular pet dislike. Most folk aren’t too worried about this and that’s fine. Hopefully it helps to illustrate that there are many, many aspects to design, build and operation of a layout. Layout builders will plan to make a layout that suits what they feel is important.  It could be argued that if you don’t like a layout it is because you don’t understand what the builder was trying to achieve. I consider all layouts to be a moving 3D work of art even though I don’t necessarily understand them.😉

But basically you like valleys 😁

[boxbrownie]

12 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

Now if I had say an LED strip for that to illuminate the layout effectively it would need to be 2 ft to 2ft 6 ins higher, thus obstructing the view of anyone over 4ft 11 1/2 ins high.

 

 

You could make them view it from further away and provide Opera Glasses 🤣

[Clive Mortimore]

Two things come to mind in the days of me exhibiting Hanging Hill and things being flat. 

 

First, someone pointed out that the layout was flat (as depots are generally) which was at odds with its name, jokingly. A few months later it was at a show and my mate had a folded piece of A4 paper with tunnel written on it ready to place on the layout should anyone comment on it being flat.

 

Second, my carpentry is not the worlds best and all of the legs were different lengths, EM gauge society prospectors under the short legs seemed to alleviate any rocking problems. For those who attended the Chatham shows when they were held in the old dockyard sheds will know the floor was a tad undulating. Perfect no packing was needed.

[AndrueC]

Flat baseboard - yes. But flat track - no. Inclines aren't that difficult to do. I find them quite easy in fact - most of mine on my current layout are also curved. However you do need space if you're going to have inclines. Even in N scale you need two meters to rise and another two to fall (one metre might be adequate) if you want track to cross over the top of track. As with my previous layout I made use of a mezzanine to allow the rise and fall to occur in two stages.

 

I suppose one advantage of N scale is that you don't need particularly strong construction for an incline - I used cardboard/plasticard and polystyrene - but I wouldn't think you need amazing carpentry skills for OO either.

 

Still - if you have decent carpentry skills an open frame layout has to be the way to go. It's just that a lot of us don't have those skills so we have to buy baseboard kits and that means traditional frame+baseboard.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by AndrueC

[newbryford]

Sounds like flat layouts are easier to do than change lamps...

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

Everyone will judge layouts at exhibitions based on what is and isn’t important to them. In many years of exhibiting I can’t recall hearing any really negative comments from visitors. On the other hand I have had a fair few folk look down their noses and quickly walk on. That’s fine, no layout will appeal to everyone. Enjoy the chats with the folk that like your layout and don’t worry about the others. One of the oddest things about exhibiting is the number of visitors who seem to think the exhibitors can’t hear them when they are talking to their mate and commenting on your layout.

Yep can hear them......AND SMELL YA ALL! Get a wash! When leeds music festival on one year northern gave away a care pack for returning revellers....bootie overshoes...energy bar ...bottle of water snd a can of deodorant 

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

I should have held back on my comments above. I’ve just realised I will be looking after a completely flat layout at Warley NEC show. 
 

If I could be bothered to visit that particular cattle market, I would have made a careful note of all the Flat layouts present, and written a strongly worded complaint to the organisers on RMweb about it.

My recent layouts are mostly flat because the joke about the prototype landscape they are set in is that you can watch your dog run away from home for three days.

I was actually complemented on an American forum for successfully acheiving the look of southern Minnesota in a board width of only two feet, in O Scale....

 

Anyway, even if my boards are flat, my track certainly isn't.... 😝😝😝

 

[bradfordbuffer]

4 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

If I could be bothered to visit that particular cattle market, I would have made a careful note of all the Flat layouts present, and written a strongly worded complaint to the organisers on RMweb about it.

My recent layouts are mostly flat because the joke about the prototype landscape they are set in is that you can watch your dog run away from home for three days.

I was actually complemented on an American forum for successfully acheiving the look of southern Minnesota in a board width of only two feet, in O Scale....

 

Anyway, even if my boards are flat, my track certainly isn't.... 😝😝😝

 

Love the track

[bradfordbuffer]

10 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

The safe word is Tamworth.....

If only some one wrote it down?

[boxbrownie]

19 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Sounds like flat layouts are easier to do than change lamps...

And take just as long to build 🤭

[The Johnster]

35 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Sounds like flat layouts are easier to do than change lamps...

About as easy, I’d say; I’m not especially skilled and I’ve managed both.  

Edited November 4, 2022 by The Johnster

[newbryford]

14 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

About as easy, I’d say; I’m not especially skilled and I’ve managed both.  

 

Promised but not still not put up yet.

 

You started this thread with your observations of videos of layouts about not changing lamps, although you do say you do it on your own layout.

Isn't it about time you proved how easy it was with a video?

Edited November 4, 2022 by newbryford

[Oldddudders]

"Open Top!" I think was the title/headline of a Cyril Freezer article in RM many years ago. The logic was impeccable, and it fits well with the L-girder principle that my layout uses, but my baseboard surface is just good-old, plain, flat. At least it hasn't warped in 16 years of being in an unheated barn.

 

I do feel, however, that carpentry skills are indeed needed if you are  to make that nice, lightweight, open-top layout, with the realistic hills and valleys, actually survive the exhibition experience, not least in transit. Or Sherpa etc... And yes, I do recognise the embankments, and more particularly the cuttings, engineered by the C19 builders. Try using the Internet on board between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, as I have done eight times this week, and you will have the same appreciation! 

 

Actually, railway builders did try to make things flat. The puissance of early locos was a bit lacking, so they needed every help. And sets of sidings really do need to be flat to make life easier and safer. I recall Hither Green Down Sidings were level with the SER main line at the south end, but a fair few feet higher at the north. The SER main line had been descending since leaving Polhill Tunnel a number of miles back, and was still doing so on its way to London Bridge. There's a layout challenge!

[bradfordbuffer]

9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

"Open Top!" I think was the title/headline of a Cyril Freezer article in RM many years ago. The logic was impeccable, and it fits well with the L-girder principle that my layout uses, but my baseboard surface is just good-old, plain, flat. At least it hasn't warped in 16 years of being in an unheated barn.

 

I do feel, however, that carpentry skills are indeed needed if you are  to make that nice, lightweight, open-top layout, with the realistic hills and valleys, actually survive the exhibition experience, not least in transit. Or Sherpa etc... And yes, I do recognise the embankments, and more particularly the cuttings, engineered by the C19 builders. Try using the Internet on board between Newton Abbot and Plymouth, as I have done eight times this week, and you will have the same appreciation! 

 

Actually, railway builders did try to make things flat. The puissance of early locos was a bit lacking, so they needed every help. And sets of sidings really do need to be flat to make life easier and safer. I recall Hither Green Down Sidings were level with the SER main line at the south end, but a fair few feet higher at the north. The SER main line had been descending since leaving Polhill Tunnel a number of miles back, and was still doing so on its way to London Bridge. There's a layout challenge!

Every layout described as flat! Will have a slight! Very slight gradient as the earth is round so if in contact in all 4 corners must be slightly convex or if bad at woodwork concave! 🤭.....oops feel off topic thread coming with the flat earth society! 

 

Please ladys put hand bags down keep it nice!....save the slanging match for warley...love to watch a good scrap!

[Barry Ten]

Having built a few not-flat layouts. I can testify that they're a pain to make, wire up, maintain, transport, exhibit and modify. Don't do it, kids.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Flat layouts?

 

Well to a first approximation railways are flat.  I know there are exceptions before someone tells me that 1 in 11 is prototypical for simple adhesion.  Yes but how often do you see it?

 

Primarily railways are flat.  Stoke bank that gave Mallard that advantage on its speed run is 1 in 178.  Even on branch lines 1 in 60 was seen as a test.  So on your 10ft visible bit of the layout that is 2inches difference in height from one end to the other.

 

I have exhibited in halls with floors with a bigger incline than that. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Andy Hayter