Acceptable standards at exhibitions

[AY Mod]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I’m limited to 10mb upload anyway, so it wouldn’t be much of a video!  In any case, I do not feel the need to prove to anyone else that I do this, I know that I do this which is plenty enough for me...

 

You can't upload videos to the site. You do it to YouTube or similar and paste the URL into a post here.

 

I think the requests are fair game as you started the topic off with the things others shouldn't or should do; 50% of which I proved as tosh shortly after. You set a ball rolling but it seems you don't like that ball when it's rolling back to you. It is 'put up or shut up' point.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

Without wanting to make any enemies, to be brutally honest, I don't understand the point of this thread - especially considering how nasty it has been in some posts by some users. The simple reason is that (as has been outlined many times throughout) everyone is different - thus will have different points of view on what they deem acceptable, and what factors, or combination of factors, contribute to that. I was going to list all the things I could think of, but after exceeding 10, I realised it was futile!

 

On a personal level, I wouldn't say I don't care about prototypical operating practices, however, the aspects I value more are; scenery, atmosphere, theming, consistency (in colouring), entertaining the public, being a friendly face to visitors, and staving off operational boredom (potentially at the expense of prototypical operation). Perhaps others too, but you get the gist.

 

Ultimately, I don't think anyone has the right to say to another person "this is how you should run your layout". It is up to the builder to decide that, and go with what makes them happy. Besides, if everyone built the same layout or paid attention to the same things it would be bloody boring! Should people strive to improve? Probably, yes - I make How-To articles for BRM primarily because I like both to learn new skills, and to teach new skills.

 

You'll always get people who will find fault with your work, so just model what makes you happy. I know I certainly do!

[bradfordbuffer]

11 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

You can't upload videos to the site. You do it to YouTube or similar and paste the URL into a post here.

 

I think the requests are fair game as you started the topic off with the things others shouldn't or should do; 50% of which I proved as tosh shortly after. You set a ball rolling but it seems you don't like that ball when it's rolling back to you. It is 'put up or shut up' point.

Referee ....3...2...1...knockout! Ding ding ding!

[Steamport Southport]

16 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Without wanting to make any enemies, to be brutally honest, I don't understand the point of this thread - especially considering how nasty it has been in some posts by some users. The simple reason is that (as has been outlined many times throughout) everyone is different - thus will have different points of view on what they deem acceptable, and what factors, or combination of factors, contribute to that. I was going to list all the things I could think of, but after exceeding 10, I realised it was futile!

 

On a personal level, I wouldn't say I don't care about prototypical operating practices, however, the aspects I value more are; scenery, atmosphere, theming, consistency (in colouring), entertaining the public, being a friendly face to visitors, and staving off operational boredom (potentially at the expense of prototypical operation). Perhaps others too, but you get the gist.

 

Ultimately, I don't think anyone has the right to say to another person "this is how you should run your layout". It is up to the builder to decide that, and go with what makes them happy. Besides, if everyone built the same layout or paid attention to the same things it would be bloody boring! Should people strive to improve? Probably, yes - I make How-To articles for BRM primarily because I like both to learn new skills, and to teach new skills.

 

You'll always get people who will find fault with your work, so just model what makes you happy. I know I certainly do!

 

Did it get you thinking though?

 

Surely that's the point of the "musings" bit of the section topic. Maybe someone has taken on board a few of the comments about how to improve their operations and presentation in general.

 

Quite often we don't see things that others do as we are on different sides of the barrier.

 

 

Jason

[whart57]

1 hour ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

You dont fit smart meters then,beware of the hype folks.

 

It's not really understood how badly our local distribution networks are managed. As anyone who is out in the country relying on a mile or three of exposed overhead will know. About twelve years ago, when I was working for IBM, I designed and demonstrated a system that used smart meters to pinpoint the location of breaks within a minute of them happening, and that was without GPS positioning. Trouble is that required second generation smart meters and not the first generation ones that were being rolled out at huge cost.

[SouthernRegionSteam]

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Did it get you thinking though?

 

Surely that's the point of the "musings" bit of the section topic. Maybe someone has taken on board a few of the comments about how to improve their operations and presentation in general.

 

Quite often we don't see things that others do as we are on different sides of the barrier.

 

 

Jason

On the first point, not really - if anything, I was getting annoyed!
I've held off on commenting up until my last post (despite having seen most responses in this thread), but it got to the point where I just couldn't ignore the back and forth about a subject that is almost entirely subjective, and the derisive comments made by some who seem to think they are perfect, and that everyone should strive to model everything as perfect as possible, even if they don't do it themselves. Having been on both sides of the exhibition barrier, I do see a lot of 'high and mighty' thinking; both from visitors, and exhibitors.

 

In more general terms:

 

The sooner people accept that people model what they want to model in the way they want to model it, at the skill level they feel comfortable at; the better off we'll all be. This is a hobby. A past-time designed to be enjoyable, and that allows you to create the miniature world that you want to create. By all means suggest improvements to people, but do it in a way that is constructive, rather than derisive. "Have you considered..." not "You've done that wrong", for example.

Personally, I like to attempt to visit every single layout an exhibition (bar those designed solely for children to 'play' with, for obvious reasons), and almost always spend my entire day walking around an exhibition looking at them. It doesn't matter the prototype, skill shown, presentation etc. It matters that they've made an effort to be there. I will of course spend more time at layouts that I (again, personally) think are worth spending more time at due to meeting my aforementioned preferences, but I'm not just going to walk on by if a layout isn't 'as good' as one next to it, or is a prototype I have little interest in.

[Old Gringo]

On 04/11/2022 at 18:36, Clive Mortimore said:

That sounds like every layout I have exhibited or been invited to help operate. I still go back for more F U N.

 

Hi Old Grigo

 

I have a problem with lighting my small exhibition layout. It is 6 ft 8 1/2 ins long and 1 ft wide. It stands no higher than a normal table, I don't like standing for 2 days so operate by sitting in a normal height chair which all venues can provide. Plus small kids and parents like it, no having to be lifted up. The layout legs fold up reducing the amount of separate items that could be left at home, a lesson learnt when helping a mate and one of our crew had to dash to B&Q, buy some wood, screws and a saw before opening time of the show.  Layout and stock fit wonderfully in our Peugeot 107 and on arrival at the show I can transport everything on a small fold up barrow.  At Ally Pally I was leaving with the last of the punters with everything on the barrow.

 

Now if I had say an LED strip for that to illuminate the layout effectively it would need to be 2 ft to 2ft 6 ins higher, thus obstructing the view of anyone over 4ft 11 1/2 ins high. I could have a higher lighting rig but something like LED strip would be lighting the surrounding area not the layout. I could have spot lights which would give a more direct light on the train set below but would require a more substantial support. As the layout is only a foot wide  a high up heavy lighting rig could unbalance the layout should it be supporting the lighting rig. The answer to that would be a self supporting lighting rig. I have worked out that the lighting rig would take up as much room in the car as the layout and stock.

 

I could make the layout higher, that would mean a stronger subframe to prevent the layout from toppling over as its center of gravity would be a lot higher, again defeating the ability to shift everything on one fold up barrow. Plus my dislike of having to stand all exhibition would require me to take some bar stools as well. As it is at the moment all stock and the layout are below window height in our small car, so when parked up at places like service stations it is less of an invitation to the opportunistic thief.

 

So you are going to have to dislike my layout.

 

 

 

Hello Clive,

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply to my post, in The Johnster's topic, in which I was hoping not to bring any further argument to the table, but actually in the conclusion to help to promote the hobby in its best light at all levels.

 

I don't often post now, but I do try to write something that is inclusive and balanced for everyone who enjoys the hobby.  That's another reason for including an apology in the piece just in case anything might cause upset, as I find that there's a lot assumptions made by people we've never met and sometimes it can be over just a single word. 

 

Thanks also for reading it right to the very last word of the notes of the mini-essay, in which I did qualify my statements earlier in the piece, viz: "It's a bit of a subjective list and I wouldn't like to have anyone apply it or use it." (last line paragraph 8)

 

This is why it's a great shame that you would assume that I might dislike your layout and I'm genuinely sorry that you might think that.

 

It was good to read the comprehensive description of your own exhibition layout, which you admit to having a lot of FUN operating with and gives pleasure to lots of visitors to the shows.  However, in a topic that was aimed at promoting accurate and prototypical railway operation, I'm still mystified enough to ask this question:  Whatever makes you assume from the last word (out of 827 others) that I should "have to dislike your layout" ?

 

I'm going to break my own rules here, but I'm both assuming and hoping that, from the capital letters of FUN in your previous answer to bradford buffer that :

You really enjoy exhibiting your layout, which fits, just like mine did in 1990 into Peugeot motor car (but it was a 405 I had back then).  It suits both you and the public you engage with, especially the children, to operate at that level and you can manage with the lighting levels of the exhibition halls you exhibit in.  All positives, promoting our hobby to every level and having fun.

 

Here's another observation: 

Looking back over the years, one of the most fun weekends I've had operating was the first and that was also from a seated position.  Although, I'd played trains in my lonely room for years, it wasn't until I became a helper at an annual local exhibition, held in support of the National Children's Home  in Sutton Coldfield during the 1980s, that I'd ever operated a model railway in the public's gaze.

 

The layout was Carradon Junction and John Cox needed another second man [ii].  My job was mainly to shunt the china clay wagons in the yard, at the end of the 9 foot by one foot layout.  Over that weekend, whilst sat down at almost eye-level with the kids, I learned the hard way how to operate at an exhibition and also how to have fun!  Plus, how to make plenty of mistakes, whilst trying to explain what I was supposed to be doing, or how that part of the layout was built, etc.

 

On the Sunday afternoon, as the little show was winding down I was completely hooked, and John and Geoff let me substitute my white-metal P-Class 0-6-0T (bought S/H) for the 08 diesel locomotive.  That weekend's experience encouraged me to build my own small exhibition layout and embark on the Royton project.  The spin off from Royton's only appearance was being asked to demonstrate ballasting techniques, which I did for many years both sitting down and standing up, but usually with an angle-poise lamp handy!

 

What does this prove?  Absolutely zero.

I suppose I could have just left your assumption hanging on the internet on page 21 of this topic, as yet another snippit of possibly misinformation.  However, I'd rather hope that we're all trying to have fun promoting the hobby of building model railways.  And twiddling our control knobs at exhibitions for a couple of days, but just in different ways and at different heights is so much more fun.

 

You are promoting our hobby in a way that works best for you.

Excellent and long may it continue; take care, enjoy and have fun.

But, please don't assume that I, or anybody else would want to dislike your layout?

All the very best,
John - aka Old Gringo.

 

According to my diaries, I helped my friend Hugh, for at least eight of the years between 1982 and 1990, at the two-day event held in a small hall at the NCH, Princess Alice Drive, Sutton.  The site was later sold to Tesco PLC and is now occupied by a supermarket.

[ii] Based upon Coombe Junction, Geoff Dowling and John Cox's Carradon Junction was featured in the last edition of Model Railway Constructor, June 1987 (with 37 243 at Carradon Crossing on the front cover)  One of its aims "was to build something that used kits and bits readily available in model shops".  It did so much more than that: it worked well,was good to watch and lots of fun to operate.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, johndon said:

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood but are you saying that you remove the rolling stock from the layout, change the lamps and then put it back on? 

 

You haven't misunderstood.

 

I can usually manage with the stock in situ on the rails, but because I model a WR South Wales Valleys scenario nearly all my locos are GW tank engines, with overhanging extended bunkers. These can be awkward, for example lamping a class K mineral working on the bottom right bracket of the bunker, or feneagaling a lamp on to the top bracket in the recessed bunker fairing of a 56xx or 5101 for a passenger working, and in those cases, yes, it is sometimes easier to take the loco off the layout for lamping and put it back on when the job is finished.  My eyesight and steadiness of hand are probably par for the course for someone my age, and are not going to improve, so I expect to have to resort to this more in the future.  It's at home, I don't exhibit, so it's only me that's bothered by it, and I can live with it; it bothers me less than running trains without lamps or incorrectly mounted lamps.  But I would accept this at on an exhibition layout in the same way that I accept the hand of god using scale couplings; compromises are inevitable and if this is the only way to have correctly lamped trains on a terminus layout, so be it.

 

Now, of course, this solution will not suit everybody and on a continuous circuit layout where most trains appear from the fy, traverse the scenic section perhaps stopping at a station or shunting a yard in the process, and disappear back to the fy, it is not necessary and the lamps can be fixed permanently in place; only trains that shunt and change headcode or reverse direction will need to be re-lamped in this way.  But it suits me.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

You can't upload videos to the site. You do it to YouTube or similar and paste the URL into a post here.

 

I think the requests are fair game as you started the topic off with the things others shouldn't or should do; 50% of which I proved as tosh shortly after. You set a ball rolling but it seems you don't like that ball when it's rolling back to you. It is 'put up or shut up' point.

 

Ok, fair point Andy, and since it's you, I'll try and vid a lamp change and upload it to YouTube, something I've never done before so give me a bit of time to find out how it's done.  You may be creating a monster here, of course, as within a few weeks I'll be uploading every move to YT and you'll all be fed up with me for another reason (actually, I promise not to do that...).

[johndon]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

You haven't misunderstood.

 

I can usually manage with the stock in situ on the rails, but because I model a WR South Wales Valleys scenario nearly all my locos are GW tank engines, with overhanging extended bunkers. These can be awkward, for example lamping a class K mineral working on the bottom right bracket of the bunker, or feneagaling a lamp on to the top bracket in the recessed bunker fairing of a 56xx or 5101 for a passenger working, and in those cases, yes, it is sometimes easier to take the loco off the layout for lamping and put it back on when the job is finished.  My eyesight and steadiness of hand are probably par for the course for someone my age, and are not going to improve, so I expect to have to resort to this more in the future.  It's at home, I don't exhibit, so it's only me that's bothered by it, and I can live with it; it bothers me less than running trains without lamps or incorrectly mounted lamps.  But I would accept this at on an exhibition layout in the same way that I accept the hand of god using scale couplings; compromises are inevitable and if this is the only way to have correctly lamped trains on a terminus layout, so be it.

 

Now, of course, this solution will not suit everybody and on a continuous circuit layout where most trains appear from the fy, traverse the scenic section perhaps stopping at a station or shunting a yard in the process, and disappear back to the fy, it is not necessary and the lamps can be fixed permanently in place; only trains that shunt and change headcode or reverse direction will need to be re-lamped in this way.  But it suits me.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply.  So, at an exhibition you'd find it perfectly acceptable for the operator to remove a loco from the layout just to change the lamps?

 

I guess that shows what a broad church we are, for me that would utterly ruin the experience and I'd walk away.  If a loco came in to a terminus, having the correct lamps at both ends of layout would be far better compromise than removing the loco which completely shatters any illusion of reality.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, johndon said:

So, at an exhibition you'd find it perfectly acceptable for the operator to remove a loco from the layout just to change the lamps?

 

Well, one would politely ask the viewer to look away for a moment.

[whart57]

Lamps you can change with difficulty but what about drivers of DMUs or the headcodes and red tailcodes on BR(S) EMUs. And why isn't the platform empty when the train departs. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. 

[The Johnster]

Or explain about 'time out'.  I agree it's not an ideal solution for exhibitions, but it can be done in situ in many cases and these are no worse than shunting poles and scale couplings, the hand of god.  Running trains with lamps between the loco and the coaches, or with loco tail lamps lit when stock is coupled, or two red tail lamps lit on first generation dmus in green or banger blue liveries which should carry oil tail lamps, or marker headlamps lit on WR hydraulics which should be running with only the headcode lit unless they are shunting, are to my mind equally unsatisfactory.  If I were exhibiting Cwmdimbath, which I'm never going to do, I'd be changing my lamps like I do at home, and explaining why to anyone who was bothered enough to ask.  I would regard Johndon walking away in disgust as his choice and his right which I respect; no rule says everybody, or for than matter anybody, has to do what I do.  If you can do it better, then I'd be interested to hear, and learn, from you. and would take more notice of any criticism of my method if it was from somebody who I knew had tried to do it better, even if they'd failed!

 

I know my standards are inconsistent, and I've said so.  I am happy to pick up a loco off the layout to relamp it because I cannot bear to see trains not lamped properly, and equally happy to tolerate tension lock couplings and questionable loco kitbashes like my not-yet-finished Collett 1938 3100, an 'impressionist' rendering of the loco using a Bachmann Ivatt 4MT mech, motion, running plate and tanks from an Airfix 61xx, boiler from a Mainline 43xx, cab and bunker from a Mainline 56xx, and Hornby 42xx cylinders/slide bars/motion bracket/vacuum pump.  It may not be a dead scale model, but it'll look a bit like 3100. 

 

And it'll carry proper lamps.  Do your locos?

[The Johnster]

4 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Lamps you can change with difficulty but what about drivers of DMUs or the headcodes and red tailcodes on BR(S) EMUs. And why isn't the platform empty when the train departs. Surely a line has to be drawn somewhere. 

 

Don't SR EMUS do this automatically if they are DCC?  Drivers and passengers are a somewhat intractible problem I agree.  At Cwmdimbath it's usually raining (it is set in the South Wales Valleys after all) and the layout is lit accordingly (I don't model rain, but if pressed would use a mister spray), and everbody in the village can hear the train coming, so nobody waits around outside on the platform anyway.  There is a group of railwaymen who have been in the same conversation for nearly 6 years now, but no passengers.  Their boarding and alighting from the train is on the non-viewing side, as is the equally imagined slamming of doors.  Men coming off shift at the miner's platform are not there long and the train is usually waiting for them, so you don't see them; the platform is deserted except for a sheep, and she probably hasn't got a ticket anyway.  I don't like humans on layouts frozen in action, and mine are in inactive poses leaning on things and the like.  A busy main line through station will have passengers on the platform after a train pulls out because they weren't waiting for that train, they were waiting for one going somewhere else, but for BLTs I prefer the bleakness of the 'shunned by humanity' look, and suggest the presence of people by leaving doors ajar, lights on in rooms, bicycles propped against walls, unattended bags on seats (there was less terrorism in the 50s) and the like.

 

Conversly, a main line terminus usually does not have passengers on the platforms, though there may be plenty of railway and postal staff.  Passengers are encouraged to leave the train ASAP when it arrives, and not allowed past the gate until a set time before departure when the stock is in position.  The concourse is usually pretty busy, though.

 

Multiple unit and auto drivers, and diesel or electric loco drivers where end-changing is needed, are a problem I do not have an answer for.  My autos are configured for propelling, with a driver in the auto cab and fireman on the loco, which means that for the arrival at the terminus they are wrong.  Not sure I can do much about that, sorry.  Thinking about it, perhaps I could use replacement plug-in cabs with and without drivers, and suitably permanently lamped, but the hand of god and down time would be involved again,  That might work for multiple unit stock as well.

 

 

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, johndon said:

 

Thanks for the reply.  So, at an exhibition you'd find it perfectly acceptable for the operator to remove a loco from the layout just to change the lamps?

 

I guess that shows what a broad church we are, for me that would utterly ruin the experience and I'd walk away.  If a loco came in to a terminus, having the correct lamps at both ends of layout would be far better compromise than removing the loco which completely shatters any illusion of reality.

 

Wow.

Incorrect/missing lamps or hand of god to remove loco and fit lamps.

Tough choice at an exhibition.

 

Removing, then replacing the loco introduces another level of unreliability.

 

At an exhibition, I'd far more have reliability than correct lamps.

 

What people do at home, or in the bath, is Ok behind closed doors.

Edited November 5, 2022 by newbryford

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, newbryford said:

At an exhibition, I'd far more have reliability than correct lamps.

Luckily you can have both on your layout.

 

The joy of diesels (and electrics) 😃

[newbryford]

35 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Luckily you can have both on your layout.

 

The joy of diesels (and electrics) 😃

 

And steam locos.

 

It has been dimmed down a bit since that pic was taken.

 

And I believe it is correct for a light engine with one or two brakes attached. The model is loco plus BSK support coach.

 

 

I will try and be less tiresome and await the promised video, although I'll probably remind Andy Y........

Edited November 5, 2022 by newbryford

[BoD]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Well, one would politely ask the viewer to look away for a moment.

Or use a proscenium arch for its proper purpose and hang curtains from it. At the end of a movement, close the front of house tabs (curtains), make the necessary changes and then open the curtains for the next scene.  Playing an intermezzo or singing something  is optional.
 

Sorted.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Though, to be honest, if Clive was singing along to some heavy metal or obscure esoteric band, I'd probably just walk on by...🥴

[Clive Mortimore]

9 minutes ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Though, to be honest, if Clive was singing along to some heavy metal or obscure esoteric band, I'd probably just walk on by...🥴

Hi Peter

 

You and the rest of the world are safe. Singing in public, that is one thing my wife has cured me of for the sake of those in ear shot. As my sister says, "Clive hits the right note now and then......accidentally"

 

Today I was at the Spalding exhibition, it was a good day out. I did see many  "that don't look right" operating moves, no changing of lamps (that might have happened when I wasn't looking), lots of flat layouts, assorted Diego Maradona moves, sound fitted locos where the noise didn't match what they were doing etc.

 

I also saw lots of smiling faces on children, mums and dads and old duffers like me, enjoying the layouts that were on display. Isn't that what going to a model railway exhibition is about.

 

As for the chili con-carnie I had at lunch time, it was lovely, loads of flavour without being too hot.

[big jim]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

Or use a proscenium arch for its proper purpose and hang curtains from it. At the end of a movement, close the front of house tabs (curtains), make the necessary changes and then open the curtains for the next scene.  Playing an intermezzo or singing something  is optional.
 

Sorted.

don’t forget the safety curtain 

[newbryford]

Just now, big jim said:

don’t forget the safety curtain 

 

Or the trapdoor......

[big jim]

1 minute ago, newbryford said:

 

Or the trapdoor......

[whart57]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Don't SR EMUS do this automatically if they are DCC?  

 

I don't think so. Southern Region EMUs had number blinds at the front, just like buses. Victoria to Ramsgate via Chatham was number 50. At the rear the numbers were wound away and blank red blinds were displayed. Perhaps there is a way to do this with DCC but I don't know how myself 

[newbryford]

Just now, whart57 said:

I don't think so. Southern Region EMUs had number blinds at the front, just like buses. Victoria to Ramsgate via Chatham was number 50. At the rear the numbers were wound away and blank red blinds were displayed. Perhaps there is a way to do this with DCC but I don't know how myself 

 

Maybe you can pick it up, dismantle the body and swap over the blinds. 

Refit the body and replace it back on the track?