What is the latest year we would be able to see black Class 08s?

[Lacathedrale]

As per title - “Early and Green Diesels” book has photographs of newly out shopped locos but doesn’t seem to cover repaints. I’m not talking about  one off pets, but rather when it may have been uncommon but still possible to see a black shunter.

 

thank you!

[Mark Forrest]

08 105 reported as being painted black to blue in 1975.

A couple of others thought to have remained in black until '73.

(Source: Un-Corporate Identity 1966-1982 supplement published with BRM/Traction many years ago)

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

As per title - “Early and Green Diesels” book has photographs of newly out shopped locos but doesn’t seem to cover repaints. I’m not talking about  one off pets, but rather when it may have been uncommon but still possible to see a black shunter.

 

thank you!

 

I am not sure that a black 08 is a good choice for the station pilot on the new layout........

[Lacathedrale]

Unrelated to any layout plans I’m afraid!

[turbos]

6 minutes ago, Mark Forrest said:

08 105 reported as being painted black to blue in 1975.

A couple of others thought to have remained in black until '73.

(Source: Un-Corporate Identity 1966-1982 supplement published with BRM/Traction many years ago)

08 105 appeared in a black & white photo in the 1975 Ian Allan Combined Volume still in black livery with the ‘cycling lion’ emblem with its TOPS number.

 

Brian.

[Halvarras]

D3052 at Willesden survived until December 1973 in black - had it lasted a few months longer it would have become 08039. This was the subject of a special edition by Model Rail magazine, based on the Bachmann model.

As Mark says, Carlisle Kingmoor's D3170 did last long enough to be renumbered 08105 - despite its remarkable survival the only photo I know of appeared in the 1975 Ian Allan CV and suggests that the old number was painted out with green or blue paint. I'm really surprised that no colour photographs of this oddity appear to exist to be able to confirm this.

Then there are the two Class 01s on the Holyhead breakwater line, and maybe one or two Class 11s - unsure about those......

 

Oh, and pre-TOPS both of these had steam-era large numbers with small D prefixes.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Halvarras
Spelling 'error' (I typed it correctly, but......)

[Lacathedrale]

So to be clear, we could feasibly have seen a black 08 from any time from introduction through to around 1970 at which point it would become increasingly anachronistic (and filthy)?

 

@Halvarras , from 1xxxx in 1948 through to Dxxxx in 1957 (and presumably the start of the repaints for those which recieved them). Was the 'D' patched over the '1' ? 

[keefer]

Photo of D3052 on 02/06/72 here: https://www.heritageshunterstrust.com/class-08

And at Willesden on 25/06/1974

25Jun74. Willesden mpd. Class 08 shunter D3052. [Slide_0623] by MrDeltic, on Flickr

[keefer]

Photo of D3170 at Carlisle in early 1973 (although caption says it's green):

Class 08 D3170 Carlisle 1973 by Neil McWilliam, on Flickr

[Richard_A]

Does anyone know of a South Wales based one still in black in the late 1960s? 

[br2975]

5 hours ago, rka said:

Does anyone know of a South Wales based one still in black in the late 1960s? 

.

Sorry, none that I'm aware of.

.

Swindon continued to paint WR Cl.08s in green, well after BR introduced blue, apparently in order to use up existing stocks of green paint.

.

Southern Region shunters going through Swindon at the same time were out-shopped in standard blue

[Wickham Green too]

16 minutes ago, br2975 said:

Swindon continued to paint WR Cl.08s in green, well after BR introduced blue, apparently in order to use up existing stocks of green paint.

Probably fitted copper-capped chimneys, too ....... but you wouldn't see them from ground level. 🤭 

[Richard_A]

2 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

Sorry, none that I'm aware of.

.

Swindon continued to paint WR Cl.08s in green, well after BR introduced blue, apparently in order to use up existing stocks of green paint.

.

Southern Region shunters going through Swindon at the same time were out-shopped in standard blue

Thank you, I thought you'd be the man to know. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by rka

[bécasse]

8 hours ago, keefer said:

Photo of D3170 at Carlisle in early 1973 (although caption says it's green):

Class 08 D3170 Carlisle 1973 by Neil McWilliam, on Flickr

That is an interesting photo. The loco was built at Derby in late summer 1955 and would have been painted black with a black wooden cab door and frameless cab window (as seen here), and a 13170 painted number. In this photo, the loco is painted green and has a varnished cab door, but still has the 1949 British Railways badge, which strongly suggests that it was overhauled at Darlington in the autumn of 1956 as that rare combination matches the batch of locos being built there at the time. It is possible, of course, that the (Darlington) varnished cab door was acquired in a swap with another loco but probably unlikely as the inward opening doors weren't prone to damage and, anyway, the loco was always allocated to one of the Carlisle sheds where Darlington-built 08s (with the varnished door) would have been unusual visitors. The revised painted number of D 3170 would have been applied at the shed (recorded as June 1957) and is in an unusual style with the full height D in the Gill Sans font, only possible since there was a 1 in the number (which is why the small D or condensed font for the whole number were used for new builds). I hadn't noted this renumbering style before and it wasn't used by any of the works for overhauled locos. The electrification flashes seen would have been affixed at the shed probably during mid- to late-summer 1960, wasps stripes would have awaited the next works overhaul and their lack would have been unusual by 1973 indicating that the loco hadn't been overhauled since the autumn of 1956. The loco had probably spent a lot of time out of use stored. It acquired its TOPS number of 08 105 in May 1974 (still in that same base livery?) and wasn't withdrawn until summer 1983.

[Lacathedrale]

Ah, so black locos could have gotten wasp stripes without a repaint to green? I didn't realise the yellow ends were so early at 1956!

[Nearholmer]

There’s an entire thread on here somewhere that traces the development of experimental and local-initiative white and yellow ‘visibility patches’ on shunting locos, which wasn’t by any means a one stage process, and the introduction of wasp stripes. IIRC the latter were standard on newly built locos from 1960, but you’d better check the other thread to be sure.

 

I think this is the thread, if you wade through it 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Lacathedrale]

How common was it for 08's repainted into green to retain their 13xxx numbers? I see Graham Farish offer one such, but not sure if that's a singleton...

 

Edited July 10 by Lacathedrale

[Halvarras]

On 23/09/2022 at 20:52, bécasse said:

That is an interesting photo. The loco was built at Derby in late summer 1955 and would have been painted black with a black wooden cab door and frameless cab window (as seen here), and a 13170 painted number. In this photo, the loco is painted green and has a varnished cab door, but still has the 1949 British Railways badge, which strongly suggests that it was overhauled at Darlington in the autumn of 1956 as that rare combination matches the batch of locos being built there at the time. It is possible, of course, that the (Darlington) varnished cab door was acquired in a swap with another loco but probably unlikely as the inward opening doors weren't prone to damage and, anyway, the loco was always allocated to one of the Carlisle sheds where Darlington-built 08s (with the varnished door) would have been unusual visitors. The revised painted number of D 3170 would have been applied at the shed (recorded as June 1957) and is in an unusual style with the full height D in the Gill Sans font, only possible since there was a 1 in the number (which is why the small D or condensed font for the whole number were used for new builds). I hadn't noted this renumbering style before and it wasn't used by any of the works for overhauled locos. The electrification flashes seen would have been affixed at the shed probably during mid- to late-summer 1960, wasps stripes would have awaited the next works overhaul and their lack would have been unusual by 1973 indicating that the loco hadn't been overhauled since the autumn of 1956. The loco had probably spent a lot of time out of use stored. It acquired its TOPS number of 08 105 in May 1974 (still in that same base livery?) and wasn't withdrawn until summer 1983.

 

I don't think any conclusion regarding wasp stripes can be drawn from that particular angle - but it does have them.

 

In the caption to D3245 on page 6 of 'The Liveries of the BR Standard Diesel Electric Shunters in Colour (1952-1996)', Steve Jordan claims, "The last class 08 to carry black livery was 08105 from Carlisle Kingmoor which it amazingly carried until overhaul at Derby Works in May 1975." The 1975 Ian Allan ABC has a David Percival b&w shot of 08105 with the number applied on a painted patch which looks noticeably lighter than the surrounding cabside. It has wasp stripes, not surprising because page 59 of Strathwood's 'Looking Back at Shunters II' has a colour view of D3170 with stripes at Derby Works in September 1969. The caption doesn't mention the livery and, as is so often the case, it's difficult to tell whether it's heavily weathered black or heavily weathered green - assuming that the order of the three images presented on the spread equates to the three photographers' names, perhaps Grahame Wareham ( @BrushVeteran of this parish) can cast his mind back 55 years and give us his opinion 😃!! 

 

If the stated location is correct (D3170's coupling rods have been removed but there's not much visible to confirm it) it is perhaps curious that Derby Works wasn't all over a loco in clear need of some TLC, but two months later I visited Derby Works myself and found Gsyp Class 27 D5381 inside - by 1972 it was the last '27' still running in Gsyp livery so Derby must have pushed that one out of the door without even adding full yellow ends; on that basis Kingmoor getting its tatty '08' back still tatty doesn't much surprise me!

[Will Crompton]

I and my gricing chums regularly used to visit Willesden MPD on Saturday London visits on our way to bunk...er, erm...I mean visit in a responsible and health and safety conscious way Old Oak Common during the early 70s. If you asked nicely at the Willesden shed office the staff let you look around. We must have seen 3052 and would have considered it noteworthy if it was in black as we were keen on engines that were still in green with a lion symbol, however I don't recall the black livery. I can only assume we though the black paint was oily dirt!

[BrushVeteran]

18 hours ago, Halvarras said:

 

I don't think any conclusion regarding wasp stripes can be drawn from that particular angle - but it does have them.

 

In the caption to D3245 on page 6 of 'The Liveries of the BR Standard Diesel Electric Shunters in Colour (1952-1996)', Steve Jordan claims, "The last class 08 to carry black livery was 08105 from Carlisle Kingmoor which it amazingly carried until overhaul at Derby Works in May 1975." The 1975 Ian Allan ABC has a David Percival b&w shot of 08105 with the number applied on a painted patch which looks noticeably lighter than the surrounding cabside. It has wasp stripes, not surprising because page 59 of Strathwood's 'Looking Back at Shunters II' has a colour view of D3170 with stripes at Derby Works in September 1969. The caption doesn't mention the livery and, as is so often the case, it's difficult to tell whether it's heavily weathered black or heavily weathered green - assuming that the order of the three images presented on the spread equates to the three photographers' names, perhaps Grahame Wareham ( @BrushVeteran of this parish) can cast his mind back 55 years and give us his opinion 😃!! 

 

If the stated location is correct (D3170's coupling rods have been removed but there's not much visible to confirm it) it is perhaps curious that Derby Works wasn't all over a loco in clear need of some TLC, but two months later I visited Derby Works myself and found Gsyp Class 27 D5381 inside - by 1972 it was the last '27' still running in Gsyp livery so Derby must have pushed that one out of the door without even adding full yellow ends; on that basis Kingmoor getting its tatty '08' back still tatty doesn't much surprise me!

I've attached the image I think you are referring to and would confirm that I have listed it as Black YWE. I never used to take many picture of shunters so I must assume the importance of this one must be its livery! 

[Nearholmer]

4 hours ago, Will Crompton said:

I don't recall the black livery. I can only assume we though the black paint was oily dirt!

I saw it multiple times, and it took ages for me to twig that it was intentionally black, rather than accidentally black like numerous other unremarkable locos. 

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, BrushVeteran said:

I've attached the image I think you are referring to and would confirm that I have listed it as Black YWE. I never used to take many picture of shunters so I must assume the importance of this one must be its livery! 

The one behind it doesnt exactly look green.

notes its no rods.

[RJS1977]

I assume we're talking BR black here, rather than any other black liveries...

 

Guinness had two 08s in their black colour scheme until the early 1990s when they were transferred to the Cholsey & Wallingford Railway. Both continue to wear black ("Lion" was sand blasted and repainted by our friends at Grundon last year), and of course as the C&WR runs into the bay at Cholsey, they can regularly be seen from passing trains on the National Network.

 

I can also remember seeing an 08 in LMS black at Tyseley in the mid-late 90s, again visible from passing trains on the National Network.

[Wickham Green too]

5 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

... I can also remember seeing an 08 in LMS black at Tyseley in the mid-late 90s, ...

There have been a number of 08s in pseudo-heritage liveries over the years.

[Halvarras]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The one behind it doesnt exactly look green.

notes its no rods.

 

D3052 from Willesden? 

 

Nah - I mean, what were the chances 🤔?!