Fiddle yard design

[barney121e]

Hi

 

Can anyone recommend improvements to the fiddle yard on the plan below. The bottom plan is based on a real place and is exactly how it should be.

 

Any help much appreciated.

[RobinofLoxley]

If the yard is based on a real location why do you ask for improvements?

 

[barney121e]

4 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

If the yard is based on a real location why do you ask for improvements?

 

I mean the fiddle yard behind the scene at the top.

 

[ITG]

3 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

If the yard is based on a real location why do you ask for improvements?

 

Maybe the OP is referring to the lower half of his plan being ‘real’, and the upper half being simply a fiddle yard?

If that’s so, does it have to be at an angle? By siting the first point slightly further back on the approach curve, then it would be parallel to the baseboard edge (avoiding wasted space) but also the roads would be slightly longer.

[ITG]

That’s a pretty big shift from some of your earlier track plan ideas, Barney. Not that a shift is wrong, but are you clear about what you want from a layout? Plenty of folk get it wrong first time - I know.

[barney121e]

5 minutes ago, ITG said:

Maybe the OP is referring to the lower half of his plan being ‘real’, and the upper half being simply a fiddle yard?

If that’s so, does it have to be at an angle? By siting the first point slightly further back on the approach curve, then it would be parallel to the baseboard edge (avoiding wasted space) but also the roads would be slightly longer.

been having difficulty getting the fiddle yard straight, not found exact pieces yet.

[barney121e]

1 minute ago, ITG said:

That’s a pretty big shift from some of your earlier track plan ideas, Barney. Not that a shift is wrong, but are you clear about what you want from a layout? Plenty of folk get it wrong first time - I know.

Just exploring a last option. The plan is for Dornoch and i can get buildings for the exact station and sheds, even the water tower. Thought it was worth looking at before a final decision.

[duncan]

Not sure what scale you are using, but unless you can get round the back of the baseboard, you won't be able to reach the fiddle-yard.  Are you planning to use set-track only, if so, don't be afraid of cutting a piece (or two) to make it easier to fit in.  You don't need an expensive minidrill & cutting discs, a razor saw id fine, just watch your fingers !!

[barney121e]

6 minutes ago, duncan said:

Not sure what scale you are using, but unless you can get round the back of the baseboard, you won't be able to reach the fiddle-yard.  Are you planning to use set-track only, if so, don't be afraid of cutting a piece (or two) to make it easier to fit in.  You don't need an expensive minidrill & cutting discs, a razor saw id fine, just watch your fingers !!

is OO and can get round all sides, as baseboard on wheels

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Ok. It may be at an angle but it means another point of the opposite hand can be fitted to the uppermost siding to give 2 shorter sidings. 

Generally things  look better at slight angles anyway.

Using streamline points puts the yard tracks slightly closer together and may allow another siding in the same space

 

[barney121e]

2 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Ok. It may be at an angle but it means another point of the opposite hand can be fitted to the uppermost siding to give 2 shorter sidings. 

Generally things  look better at slight angles anyway.

Using streamline points puts the yard tracks slightly closer together and may allow another siding in the same space

 

Would you just keep fiddle yard lines as is or would you use points to connect at left hand side? Hope that makes sense.

[ITG]

9 hours ago, barney121e said:

Would you just keep fiddle yard lines as is or would you use points to connect at left hand side? Hope that makes sense.

If you mean turn them into loops rather than dead-end sidings, you will take up a lot of space for the extra points, thus significantly shortening the storage capacity.

Although you said you could access all around the board, there’s potentially a lot of changes of position as presumably you will want to operate/view from the bottom, but with only 4 roads (not really long enough to hold more than one train each I suspect ), it will mean a lot of toing and froing to fiddle with trains.

[barney121e]

1 hour ago, ITG said:

If you mean turn them into loops rather than dead-end sidings, you will take up a lot of space for the extra points, thus significantly shortening the storage capacity.

Although you said you could access all around the board, there’s potentially a lot of changes of position as presumably you will want to operate/view from the bottom, but with only 4 roads (not really long enough to hold more than one train each I suspect ), it will mean a lot of toing and froing to fiddle with trains.

That's a good point. Was more of connecting the dead end sidings. I suppose an option could be to use my heritage line plan as a base with the back story of a heritage society has purchased the area at dornoch to turn into a heritage line. Then I could use the buildings. That's makes sense and might be more enjoyable with a roundup plan.

Now just to sort out my Y point issue.

[ITG]

IMHO, there’s a bit of a contradiction, in that you’re aspiring to use prototypical buildings of a real location, but blending that with set track which gives unrealistic track spacing and points radius. Ok, we (nearly) all have to compromise on overall radii, and your station to FY plan could easily hide the sharp radii in a tunnel/cutting etc.

or do you already have the set track?

[RobinofLoxley]

2 hours ago, barney121e said:

That's a good point. Was more of connecting the dead end sidings. I suppose an option could be to use my heritage line plan as a base with the back story of a heritage society has purchased the area at dornoch to turn into a heritage line. Then I could use the buildings. That's makes sense and might be more enjoyable with a roundup plan.

Now just to sort out my Y point issue.

I can understand this. Any loco leaving the scenic area enters the fiddle yard and is locked in with the train behind and closing the sidings to a single track allows the loco to run around. As has been said, shortens the sidings a lot. So the question then becomes more like, what is the longest train I will run on here? Or at least, the longest that will need to be stored in the FY. If we say for the sake of argument that its a loco and 3 carriages in the run-around you can apply that to the FY.

[Chimer]

A fiddle yard is for fiddling.  Locos often have to be turned, brake vans need to be shifted.  Using loops would allow runrounds, but at the cost of a lot of train length (2 coaches roughly) and the fiddle yard road which needs to be kept clear for the running-round loco.  Not for me in this situation ....

[RobinofLoxley]

A quick drawing or two shows the situation clearly.  The upper is setrack with the addition of a single piece of flexi to connect the turntable that suddenly has space because of closing the points. The spur at the end comes quite a long way down into the real layout, although it can be disguised. The sidings are much shorter, especially when you think there was space on the original diagram to extend the original yard sidings further. I dont advocate the turntable btw but space has a way of fillling up, especially in Anyrail!

 

The lower uses streamline points and demonstrates the plusses and minuses - track closer to each other but the shallower angles dictate more messing about, so fewer loops are possible.

 

There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of the original as a first layout. The fiddle yard wont be be ballasted to it would be quite easy to re-lay it  in the future.

[barney121e]

7 hours ago, ITG said:

IMHO, there’s a bit of a contradiction, in that you’re aspiring to use prototypical buildings of a real location, but blending that with set track which gives unrealistic track spacing and points radius. Ok, we (nearly) all have to compromise on overall radii, and your station to FY plan could easily hide the sharp radii in a tunnel/cutting etc.

or do you already have the set track?

I already have set track. I think whatever people model there is always going to be compromises etc, unless you live in a big house. And i do worry for the future with houses getting smaller that more compromises will be needed. 

The real place itself only had small length trains, a brake van, a carriage and a goods van i have seen in quite a few pictures. Will investigate more before taking my decision.

[DCB]

I did a doodle which I forgot to post. it suggests shortening a long curve to bring the FY parallel to the baseboard edge.  I also added a point for a spur so locos can get to the front of trains without popping out beyond the backscene.  Modern RTR 00 doesn't like being handled.

A FY Turntable is pretty pointless without one at the terminus.

The set track issue is difficult, its OK for siding spacing but makes everything look shorter and fatter than scale or even the streamline spacing.   Chopping set track points down to 44mm spacing is unconventional but its what I would do, But then again I would live frog them as well.

Edited August 29, 2022 by DCB

[The Johnster]

Swings and roundabouts.  My personal view is that using setrack, accepting that this is what you have and cost/space limitations demand it, the setrack spacing at least has the advantage that there is room between your fy roads to get your fingers between trains to lift stock off, what modellers of my generation used to call ‘crane shunting’ (I appreciate that this is contrary to some of the advice here!).
 

Assuming the grid on your plan represents 1’ squares, the length of trains will be limited by the run around loop at the station.  A big tank loco (I’ve seen photos of BR Standard 4MTs with single coach trains on the Dornoch branch) and a couple of bogie coaches tops, or half a dozen 9’/10’ wheelbase goods wagons, is the best you’ll manage and fine for the location, and these require about 30” storage sidings.  This means that your fy can be shortened a little, probably by about a foot, which can be given over to a slightly longer scenic area. 
 

 

On 14/08/2022 at 20:55, barney121e said:

is OO and can get round all sides, as baseboard on wheels

 

 

Hmm.  If the intention is to move it for access to the fy during operating sessions/with stock on the layout, the surface the wheels are running will have to be absolutely smooth and level, and not a carpet which will prevent smooth ‘starts and stops’.  

[DavidB-AU]

Tip: allow more finger space between fiddle yard tracks than for "on stage" tracks. 

[DCB]

You can cut set track to length or cut webs between the sleepers to adjust the curvature, and then trim back or file one rail to even up the length.  Unlike flexi it doesn't keep trying to straighten out or kink.    I always widen out cheaper smaller radius curves but I guess you could sharpen up the more expensive larger radius....

See Pics...      Second Hand 3rd Radius Track came from Cheltenham Model Centre but other sources are available...

 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by DCB
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