Lenz silver21+ decoder Art.Nr. 10321-01will work in Bachman class 37/47 but not in accurascale class 55018 Ballymoss.

[JM2015]

This Lenz silver decoder will work in both a Bachmann class 37 & 47, an older version of a Gaugemaster 21 pin decoder will work in the class 55.  Last night I reprogramed the Lenz silver decoder to a random address of 4444 and tried it in three different locomotives, and it worked in all three ( being Bachmann, 2, 37's  1, 47, plus the Bachmann sound chips work in the 55  and it moves ) I then put the Lenz back in the 55 and the head code and the Tail light lit up, I could have  both domino lights on at either end, and only one set of tail lights would work ( this was going through the function buttons f1-f28 ) and it did not move at all. My system is a Digitrax DCS210+ with a DT602 handset. Has anyone else come across this problem or is it just this chip is not compatible with the Lovely Deltic from accurscale? 

Thank you,

Jonathan.

[WIMorrison]

Are you aware that there are two different 21 Pin decoders, the one commonly used and a 21 Pin MTC version? Some decoders can be made to switch between the two standards.

[melmerby]

9 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Are you aware that there are two different 21 Pin decoders, the one commonly used and a 21 Pin MTC version? Some decoders can be made to switch between the two standards.

Please elaborate, as I've only ever seen the one type. (

 

Lenz, Train-o-matic and TCS all use the same 21 MTC connector

 

EDIT

Bachmann also call theirs a 21MTC

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/21-pin-dcc-loco-decoder/36-557

Edited August 2, 2022 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

Keith,

 

I believe now that after NMRA adopted the 21 pin MTC as the standard that they are likely to all be the same.

[RobinofLoxley]

Have you a different decoder you can put in Ballymoss  is case the problem is loco related?

[RFS]

18 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Keith,

 

I believe now that after NMRA adopted the 21 pin MTC as the standard that they are likely to all be the same.

 

Zimo 21-pin decoders can have 2 different formats -

 

 

You can switch between the two formats by writing 3 or 4 into CV 8.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Zimo 21-pin decoders can have 2 different formats -

 

 

You can switch between the two formats by writing 3 or 4 into CV 8.

No wonder I hadn't come across it.

It seems that what now qualifies as a NMRA 21MTC has been well established for many years with most manufacturers. (at least with the makers I have used)

 

Somewhat confusing as "MTC" is reputed to mean "Märklin Trix Connector" but their standard was different🙂.

 

[melmerby]

As the difference between the two function outputs is the only variation from the MTC 21 "standard" it should not affect the motor control.

The OP said the loco does not move with the "suspect" decoder.

[beejack]

I believe Accurascale are recommending the LokPilot 5.

Either the 59619 or the 59629 (DCC only)

[JM2015]

Hi Iain,

 No I wasn't aware of the difference between the two 21 pin decoders,  thank for your answer.

 

[JM2015]

Hi Robinofloxey,

 

yes I have tried three different decoders in Ballymoss, one being a Gaugemaster 21 pin, and two Bachmann sound decoders, one from a class 37 and the other a class 47, and Ballymoss moves and has sound with the Bachmann decoders, but when I put the Lenz in either a 37 or 47 it works but will not work with Ballymoss. so I am at a bit of a loss to be honest.

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, JM2015 said:

Hi Robinofloxey,

 

yes I have tried three different decoders in Ballymoss, one being a Gaugemaster 21 pin, and two Bachmann sound decoders, one from a class 37 and the other a class 47, and Ballymoss moves and has sound with the Bachmann decoders, but when I put the Lenz in either a 37 or 47 it works but will not work with Ballymoss. so I am at a bit of a loss to be honest.

The loco should still run if the 21pin is one of the "other" type, as the motor settings are the same.

 

However it's unlikely to be the "other" type as AFAIK Lenz have always followed the herd with the Silver 21 and have stuck to the same functions as TCS, ESU and others.

I've been using them for some time and have never had a problem but I'm not after using F3 & F4.

 

I'll do some testing tomorrow with the various 21 pins I have on an ESU decoder tester.

[JM2015]

Hi melmerby,

 

Thank you for your very informative answer, when I posted the question I had to go to work so couldn't reply straight away, i shall try adjusting a cv tonight, but it it will be tomorrow  early evening before I will be able to answer again because of work!

 

thanks,

 

Jonathan 

[SRman]

I have just rarely struck similar problems where a particular decoder will refuse to work in one single locomotive but is fine anywhere else. One such was a friend's Model Rail J70 which simply would not work with one 6-pin decoder but worked perfectly with another, yet that first decoder worked perfectly well in another loco.

A more obscure one was a friend's Heljan Hymek, D7093 with an ESU LokSound, which worked fine on any address (two or four digit) except 7093! 7092 and 7094 worked perfectly, but there was no movement at all on 7093.

In every case I have tried full decoder resets (repeated a few times just to be certain), but to no avail. However, that is still something to try in Jonathan's Deltic. It just might work.

[melmerby]

I've just had a quick play with a brand new Lenz Silver 21+

The first thing I notice is that F3 & F4 are not mapped to light outputs as standard but as speed controls.

Some re-mapping is required if lights are needed on all outputs.

 

More investigation required.

[RFS]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I've just had a quick play with a brand new Lenz Silver 21+

The first thing I notice is that F3 & F4 are not mapped to light outputs as standard but as speed controls.

Some re-mapping is required if lights are needed on all outputs.

 

More investigation required.

 

These decoders have 5 function outputs. F0 for front/tail lights (counts as 2 functions) with the other 3 controlled by F1, F2 and F5.  I have a Kernow 4-TC that uses all these functions. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by RFS

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, RFS said:

 

These decoders have 5 function outputs. F0 for front/tail lights (counts as 2 functions) with the other 3 controlled by F1, F2 and F5.  I have a Kernow 4-TC that uses all these functions. 

You can map them to different functions.

CVs 33 - 47, CV58 & 59 and CV64, all have an effect on how the decoder treats a function key press.

 

As standard pressing F3 is mapped to switch on shunting speed, which is set to 4 (values from 0-255) ex factory & pressing F4 is for switching off a delay.

So if you fit and expect a Silver 21+ to switch lights on F3 without changing anything, you will be disappointed

Change these to the appropriate values in CVs 33 - 47 and you can have F3 & F4 switching lighting instead.

 

Next thing to try is with the decoder reset to default settings what effect on motor speed F3 actually has with a value of 4.

 

Need to update JMRI as my decoder has a higher version number than that in Decoder Pro!

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by melmerby

[JM2015]

Hi Beejack,

 

Thank you for the info on the Lokpilot 5 decoder🙂

 

Jonathan.

[JM2015]

Hi RFS,

 Than you so much for your information about the functions of this decoder!🙂

 

Jonathan.

[JM2015]

Hi Melmerby,

 

That's some great information you have provided, and I am looking forward to having a play around with those CV numbers and shall get back to you probably tomorrow with some results hopefully 🙂

 

Thank you very much,

 

Jonathan 

[JM2015]

Hi SRman,

 

It's so good to know that it's not just me who has these weird happenings with Decoders.......🙂

Thank you for your reply also,

 

Jonathan.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, JM2015 said:

Hi SRman,

 

It's so good to know that it's not just me who has these weird happenings with Decoders.......🙂

Thank you for your reply also,

 

Jonathan.

Hi Jonathon

The problem(?) is that modern decoders have far more options implemented and therefore have far more chances of things being wrong.

As Robert (RFS) has pointed out the Lenz Silver 21 is a five function decoder and as standard front & rear directional lighting (F0f & F0r) are 2 functions and the other three are operated by F1, F2 & F5.

Buttons F3 & F4 do other things.

 

I see that Accurascale recommend a Lokpilot 5 which as standard has the same default function settings as Lenz.

How exactly is the loco being driven with the suspect Lenz decoder?

 

It is interesting to note that the Train - O - Matic Lokommander II has the function keys mapped as lighting by default

If you press F3 or F4 the relative function output is switched on/off

[JM2015]

Hi Keith,

 

I never anticipated this amount headaches with one decoder..... I must admit I do not fully understand all of the CV Values and what they all do, I would say I have basic knowledge of them and I understand how some of them work. I do have jmri and decoder pro, but I would say I am ok with the basic functions but I haven't done any mapping to a decoder yet. I have looked at accurscale's web site tonight and seen the lokpilot decoder listed but it's out of stock right now. I can't thank you and everyone enough for helping me with this problem, I still haven't solved it because of shift work, so hopefully Sunday might be a good day as I can play around properly with the settings, I will keep you all posted and thank you all so much.

 

Jonathan.

Edited August 11, 2022 by JM2015
wrong spelling of solved in the original post.

[JM2015]

 

[JM2015]

I would like to thank everyone for their help with the Lenz decoder issue, as Patrick from Accurascale says it’s a firmware issue, I don’t have any Lenz equipment so the decoder will be going into a Bachmann loco at some point. Happy days😀😀