DM198715 Midland Railway Clerestory (Bath Green Park) Breakdown Train Tool / Riding Van

[John Isherwood]

 

 

(Copyright unknown)

 

I would like to build a model of this vehicle, and it would appear that the best starting point would be a couple of Ratio MR Clayton clerestory kits.

 

Is anyone able to tell me the original MR Diagram Number from which DM198715 was converted, please? (I have a copy of OPC / Jenkinson & Essery's "Midland Carriages").

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited July 30, 2022 by cctransuk

[keefer]

From this page:

http://www.imber.me.uk/mr.htm

[John Isherwood]

30 minutes ago, keefer said:

From this page:

http://www.imber.me.uk/mr.htm

 

Excellent - thank you very much indeed.

 

John Isherwood.

[Compound2632]

Only the underframe now exists, at the Midland Railway Centre: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=618.

 

From the Ratio Clayton 48 ft clerestory kits, the roofs, ends, headstocks, and buffers will be useful. An easier starting point might be one of the Wizard Bain 54 ft kits, then you only need to make new sides: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/mrd473/.

 

I look forward to seeing the model, complete with sagging roof. Was the vehicle the same on the other side?

Edited July 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[John Isherwood]

32 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Only the underframe now exists, at the Midland Railway Centre: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=618.

 

From the Ratio Clayton 48 ft clerestory kits, the roofs, ends, headstocks, and buffers will be useful. An easier starting point might be one of the Wizard Bain 54 ft kits, then you only need to make new sides: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/mrd473/.

 

I look forward to seeing the model, complete with sagging roof. Was the vehicle the same on the other side?

 

Thank you for this - most helpful.

 

I already have one Ratio kit in stock, amd I should be able to pick up the extra bits required from Ebay.

 

The sides shouldn't pose a problem; as to whether it was the same on both sides  - I'm not sure! Bits of DM198715 appear in quite a number of photos of BGP, and in the background of several of Ivo Peters films; some in-depth research is called for!

 

If the cut-and-shut does not go well, I will invest in the Wizard kit, but I'm loathe to waste both of the etched sides.

 

Thanks again,

John Isherwood.

Edited July 30, 2022 by cctransuk

[Michael Hodgson]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

(Copyright unknown)

 

I would like to build a model of this vehicle, and it would appear that the best starting point would be a couple of Ratio MR Clayton clerestory kits.

 

 

I dunno, looking at the sag in the middle of that roof, I think a Triang Clerestory might be a good starting point !

[John Isherwood]

I have now gone ahead and ordered another Ratio clerestory brake third kit, which I will use as the basis for my projected model of DM198715, augmented with parts taken from the built kit that I already have.

 

Any thoughts on shortening the Ratio 10' WB bogies to represent the 8' WB ones that DM198715 had - where best to remove the surplus 8mm. (or 2 x 4mm.)?

 

The Ratio sides are very detailed, but the panelling etc. is relatively shallow and so sanding them smooth and fixing overlays of 0.25mm/ plastic car should not be too onerous.

 

I will take the image posted above, which is pretty much square-on, and adjust it to fit over the drawing of Dia. 476 in the Midland Coaches book. That will enable me to produce a basic drawing of the sides of DM198715; (I am assuming that both sides were the same - unless anyone knows to the contrary).

 

I have seen dozens of images of DM198715 in the background of photos and videos of Bath Green Park but, typically, I have not recorded where I saw them, If anyone can point me at such images, or can post them here, I would be extremely grateful. In particular, images that show the white lettering, which I guess would include MP / BATH G. P., would be especially welcome.

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

John Isherwood.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Any thoughts on shortening the Ratio 10' WB bogies to represent the 8' WB ones that DM198715 had - where best to remove the surplus 8mm. (or 2 x 4mm.)?

 

I've though about doing this for Clayton 8 ft bogies, which were of similar construction to his 10 ft bogies. I think using them as cosmetic sides on an MJT or similar bogie sub-frame may be the way forward. But the Bain bogies under DM198715 are of heavier construction...

[keefer]

This came up when I was searching for info before.

The caption should, I think, say "Derailed van and DM198715 at Worcester Shrub Hill".

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/lmsr/hA87EEB44

[John Isherwood]

5 hours ago, keefer said:

This came up when I was searching for info before.

The caption should, I think, say "Derailed van and DM198715 at Worcester Shrub Hill".

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/lmsr/hA87EEB44

 

Thanks for that - views of the RH end are rare.

 

CJI.

[Compound2632]

The only give-away that it was once a brake third is the position of the torpedo ventilators.

[John Isherwood]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The only give-away that it was once a brake third is the position of the torpedo ventilators.

 

My drawing of DM198715 is progressing well; I will post it here in due course.

 

John Isherwood.

[John Isherwood]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

My drawing of DM198715 is progressing well; I will post it here in due course.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

As promised - Midland 54' BT, as converted to DM198715 - Bath Green Park breakdown train staff and tool van; drawn at 4mm. / 1ft. scale.

 

As the side is not symetrical, I will assume that the other side is mirror-imaged - unless information to the contrary is forthcoming.

 

John Isherwood.

[John Isherwood]

 

Any suggestions as to the nature of the six projections on the central solebar?

 

Night working lights - I think I can make out connected electric cabling?

 

.... or sockets for plugging in worklights, etc.?

 

John Isherwood.

Edited August 2, 2022 by cctransuk

[andreas]

Hi John,

 

Thank you for sharing the drawings. Out of curiosity, do you know how far south the BGP breakdown train worked? Would it have been used at e.g. Evercreech Jct? Or would that have been in the hands of the Templecombe or, in earlier years, Highbridge trains?

 

I can't tell you what the projections are for but I found a few detail photos that might help. It appears there are two distinct types of attachments.

 

 ( https://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h2def2b5b#h166c0b83 )

 

Andreas

 

P.s. I have sent you a message.

[John Isherwood]

5 hours ago, andreas said:

Hi John,

 

Thank you for sharing the drawings. Out of curiosity, do you know how far south the BGP breakdown train worked? Would it have been used at e.g. Evercreech Jct? Or would that have been in the hands of the Templecombe or, in earlier years, Highbridge trains?

 

I can't tell you what the projections are for but I found a few detail photos that might help. It appears there are two distinct types of attachments.

 

 ( https://railphotoprints.uk/p752970880/h2def2b5b#h166c0b83 )

 

Andreas

 

P.s. I have sent you a message.

 

Ah-ha! What we have is the old continuous solebar footboard, cut back, to leave sections below the remaining operational doors.

 

But  ...... it appears that the footboard securing brackets, or something akin thereto, remain in place.

 

In addition, stubs of flat bar have been welded at 45 degrees to the solebar, to which retaining chains are attached.

 

Could the brackets be used to carry ladders or something similar, and the chains be to ensure they did not become detached in-transit? Just guesswork!

 

As to the operating area of the BGP breakdown train, I have no idea I'm afraid. I am familiar with the clerestory tool van, as it appears in the background of many photos and videos of BGP; I just thought that it would be an interesting project, and 'nice to have'!

 

John Isherwood.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, andreas said:

Hi John,

 

Thank you for sharing the drawings. Out of curiosity, do you know how far south the BGP breakdown train worked? Would it have been used at e.g. Evercreech Jct? Or would that have been in the hands of the Templecombe or, in earlier years, Highbridge trains?

 

Andreas

 

The 1933 S&D Jt Appendix, including amendments up to 1945, says nothing about the areas ciovered by (breakdown) Tool Vans.  The 1960 Appendix gives the area covered by the Green Park Tool Vans as 'Warmley (exclusive) to Evercreech Jcn (exclusive).  The Evercreech Jcn Tool Vans covered south of Evercreech Jcn (inclusive) and Evercreech Jcn to Highbridge (excl)  - but not south of Templecombe (which at that time was under SR control and was covered by the Salisbury  Tool Vans.

[John Isherwood]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The 1933 S&D Jt Appendix, including amendments up to 1945, says nothing about the areas ciovered by (breakdown) Tool Vans.  The 1960 Appendix gives the area covered by the Green Park Tool Vans as 'Warmley (exclusive) to Evercreech Jcn (exclusive).  The Evercreech Jcn Tool Vans covered south of Evercreech Jcn (inclusive) and Evercreech Jcn to Highbridge (excl)  - but not south of Templecombe (which at that time was under SR control and was covered by the Salisbury  Tool Vans.

 

Thank you for that; I was not aware that Evercreech Jct. had its own tool vans.

 

In my parallel universe, they are away at works for repairs / overhaul. In the meantime, the Bath vans will be sent down to deal with any unforeseen eventualities!

 

John Isherwood.

[andreas]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Evercreech Jcn Tool Vans covered south of Evercreech Jcn (inclusive) and Evercreech Jcn to Highbridge (excl)  - but not south of Templecombe (which at that time was under SR control and was covered by the Salisbury  Tool Vans.

This is rather interesting. I'm not surprised that by 1960 Highbridge was no longer covered by an S&D breakdown train. The last photo of the Highbridge vans are from c1956. However, I also didn't know about an Evercreech Jct tool van. The closest I've come across are an R.C. Riley photo dated 20th September 1958 showing Signal Department tool vans 14944 and 14986 (both ex GWR diagram CC3). I have also recently seen a 1956 photo of an ex-GWR 4-wheeled composite (?) as M&E coach W32. Both are seen parked in the station goods yard but must have been visitors. I haven't found any other photos of departmental vehicles.

 

I wonder if the vans assigned to Evercreech Junction were perhaps stabled somewhere else? Templecombe? @The Stationmaster do you happen to have similar assignment data for later years? In 1962, ex-LSWR brake third DS1578, the tool van stabled at Templecombe loco, is clearly labelled 'Templecombe Breakdown Train'. It, or one like it, had been there from c1955 onwards. Earlier, from the 1940s to c1957 there was also an ex-MR 6w clerestory, possibly LMS no. 355462. However, I can't find any photos of the lettering.

Additionally, from at least summer 1961 to August 1964, there was another coach stationed in Templecombe lower yard: maroon ex-LMS P1 D1962 vestibule third number M8439M. I am still trying to understand its purpose (other than it being a perfect example of gradual weathering over time) (see also

 

Andreas

[The Stationmaster]

The gremlins crept in a bit - apologies as it should have read that Evercreech Jcn was covered by the Templecombe Van(s).  sorry about that.  As would seem entirely logical, in view of the distances involved and coverage of the ex GWR main line,  in 1960 Highbridge, and the continuation of the branch to Burnham,  was covered by the Taunton Tool Vans.

[John Isherwood]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The gremlins crept in a bit - apologies as it should have read that Evercreech Jcn was covered by the Templecombe Van(s).  sorry about that.  As would seem entirely logical, in view of the distances involved and coverage of the ex GWR main line,  in 1960 Highbridge, and the continuation of the branch to Burnham,  was covered by the Taunton Tool Vans.

 

...... except when the Templecombe vans were unavailable, and the Bath vans were despatched!! 😉

 

CJI.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

...... except when the Templecombe vans were unavailable, and the Bath vans were despatched!! 😉

 

CJI.

 

It is interesting that the 1933 Appendix doesn't show any 'areas' for Tool Vans so it might be not unreasonable tio assume that the nearest was called first if it was available.  The 1936 SR appendix doesn't show any coverage of any Tool Vans or breakdown cranes extending onto S&D Jt lines and it does mention Templcombe Loco Dept as the contact point for any S&D Jt train involved in derailment etc on SR lines  (for information, not calling out Tool Vans etc).

[andreas]

I have recently come across Colour Rail photo SD306 on ebay and thought it fits rather well to this discussion: 4F 44591 with the Bath breakdown train at Moorewood sidings in February 1953. This may well be one of the few photos of the train in action. What the occasion was and why a Saltley loco would be used is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by andreas

[John Isherwood]

On 01/08/2022 at 21:59, cctransuk said:

 

 

As promised - Midland 54' BT, as converted to DM198715 - Bath Green Park breakdown train staff and tool van; drawn at 4mm. / 1ft. scale.

 

As the side is not symetrical, I will assume that the other side is mirror-imaged - unless information to the contrary is forthcoming.

 

John Isherwood.

 

The Bath Green Park breakdown train project is now completed - bar weathering.

 

 

The train comprises, from left to right, a riding van, a packing van and a tool van.

 

 

The riding van is something of an 'interpretation', as all I could find to work from were background crops of photos - though I think that the essential features are captured; the vehicle number is an educated guess! A Ratio suburban coach kit forms the basis of the model.

 

 

The packing van is even more of a guess - it appears very rarely as an acute, compressed three-quarter view in a couple of photos. It is clearly a van of Midland or early LMS origin - I had a suitable candidate on my roster, so the breakdown gang have applied white paint and minimal effort to re-identifiy their secondhand acquistion!

 

 

DM198715 has much more claim to being authentic - see above. The roof and chassis are spliced from a couple of Ratio clerestory coach kits, and the sides and ends are scratchbuilt from plastic card. It is, however, a grossly atypical rendition of the prototype - which always appeared in latter days to be on the point of collapse. Presumably, it was in better condition earlier in its existence!

 

An interesting, if protracted, project; which fulfils my requirement for a 'conversation piece'.

 

John Isherwood.

Edited March 29, 2023 by cctransuk

[Wheatley]

The flat brackets in the centre are for carrying short lengths of rail, if I can find a photo of one in situ I'll post it. 

 

This is superb, I must get around to finishing the remaining 1/3 of Hurlford's tool vans.