LNER Coronation Stock

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

After mulling over the most recent Engine Shed blog, I was left wondering what the opinion of the people regarding Hornby's colour choice with Garter blue?  As they have been selling A4s (and now W1s) with an all too drab and dark shade of blue for decades, I'd guess the paint choice is a compromise between different variations in full scale, as well as considering how well each shade works with their models.  I look forward to hearing everybody's opinions.

 

(edit), I decided to add some photos for some idea of comparison:

Edited June 13 by 1471SirFrederickBanbury
some photos for comparison

[guarded]

They said they’re not entirely happy with the colour and it will be tweaked.Theres no excuse not to with the observation car next door,just get the spectrometer on that.But I remain very excited for these and eagerly await their appearance.Ive waited 45 years,what’s another few months.

[Trevor Hammond]

Not  that simple.  If you use the correct colour for a full sized item it will appear too dark on a model. 

[K Hatton]

As above, colour doesn't always scale well. 

 

Add into that there is the (endless) debate over matt/satin/gloss finish, the variable amount of ambient lighting (is it natural light or not) and how clean/dirty the Loco is and you end up with a lot of factors that can affect the result.

 

Id suggest Hornby have to stick to the same colour now so that the coaches match up with the locos already sold (since they can't change the colour of those)

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

14 hours ago, Trevor Hammond said:

Not  that simple.  If you use the correct colour for a full sized item it will appear too dark on a model. 

I’ve seen an exact colour match on a scale model look perfect.  A great example would be Larry Goddard’s LMS coaches, which I believe used an exact match from Derby Works.  Either way, a direct match of the real beaver tail, or bittern would look like the photos in my last post, which are all far brighter and lighter than Hornby’s efforts so far.

[MoonM]

On 12/06/2024 at 08:43, K Hatton said:

Judging from the pictures of the seats in the observation car I'd say it may be the usual clip on affair (where the screws are to hold the interior to the chassis) :

 

 

Also just for the perfectionists/Hornby bashers the two middle chairs on the far side don't appear to have completely taken the hydrodip so maybe something to look out for (yes I did read the blurb about things to be rectified) although once populated with suitably attired people nobody would ever know. 

Seeing as Hornby are going to the trouble of replicating the pattern on the seats (great new idea), maybe a matte finish would help the illusion as they currently just look like shiny plastic and not fabric? Admittedly, an easy amendment for the purchaser to make

[JamieR4489]

22 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

I’ve seen an exact colour match on a scale model look perfect.  A great example would be Larry Goddard’s LMS coaches, which I believe used an exact match from Derby Works.

But that would also depend on the lighting conditions (artificial/natural, sunny/cloudy, warm/cold, etc), the camera used to take the photos, and how the screen you are looking at the models on is set up.

22 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

Either way, a direct match of the real beaver tail, or bittern would look like the photos in my last post, which are all far brighter and lighter than Hornby’s efforts so far.

The two photos you posted of Bittern definitely look wrong, or at least on my screen they do. Everything is too bright and vivid. The photos of Mallard show how much the colour can change in different lighting conditions (assuming it's the same paint). The one of 4466 is the only photo of original garter blue paint but how accurate was colour film in the '30s?

 

I'm not planning to buy the Hornby Coronation set but if I was, I'd rather it matched the paint on the existing A4s. For what it's worth, I've found the Hornby garter blue can change quite dramatically in different light. I do think it looks too dark under artificial light (or at least the lights in my house) but in daylight it looks great.

 

Jamie

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

1 hour ago, JamieR4489 said:

But that would also depend on the lighting conditions (artificial/natural, sunny/cloudy, warm/cold, etc), the camera used to take the photos, and how the screen you are looking at the models on is set up.

The two photos you posted of Bittern definitely look wrong, or at least on my screen they do. Everything is too bright and vivid. The photos of Mallard show how much the colour can change in different lighting conditions (assuming it's the same paint). The one of 4466 is the only photo of original garter blue paint but how accurate was colour film in the '30s?

 

I'm not planning to buy the Hornby Coronation set but if I was, I'd rather it matched the paint on the existing A4s. For what it's worth, I've found the Hornby garter blue can change quite dramatically in different light. I do think it looks too dark under artificial light (or at least the lights in my house) but in daylight it looks great.

 

Jamie

When comes to “does this look right?”,   There are just so many variables!  

 

One thing I can say though, is that Mallard’s photo displays that the NRM used the wrong shade in the 1986 restoration/overhaul, and that may have influenced an earlier decision by Hornby

 

I do know that colour reproduction on different screens is a nightmare, and those photos may have been versions that I colour corrected to suit my phone.  I’ll see if I can find any different versions

 

the dufaycolor photo of 4466 has definitely been colour corrected by me.  The original had a characteristic green/brown fade that is common on this type of film, as well as being desaturated and scanned with too little contrast I think.

 

I’d say that perhaps the best photo to use as a resource would be the LNER Society pin, as I have no doubt that they have worked over the years to find the best match.

 

Without trying to bring up to much controversy, I will say that I’m pretty sure that Gresley’s family did say that the colour choice of Garter Blue was a form of homage to Bugatti.  I’ll include a few photos of models painted with a matched Bugatti shade.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

I thought that more photos (especially links to others’ photos that i’ve not edited, so I went down the list of bookmarks labelled Bittern.

 

The first is one of my favourites.  A shot of Bittern (of course) standing out from the more drab background.  I’d say that the colour depiction is correct

 

The next is a darker, heavily saturated photo. This one looks funny to me, especially with the Pullman coaches looking more yellow than some American traffic signals.

the third is back to normal and another of my favourites.  Bittern doesn’t pop as much, but the photo looks correct.

 

The next looks overly warm on all of my devices, but is rather nice still.  I’ll include a few edited versions too.

The last is also nice.  On my phone it looks more warm and desaturated than I’m ok with, but it’s decent on some of my other devices.

 

Edited June 20 by 1471SirFrederickBanbury
Tricked by the old phone!

[E100]

With regards to colour I think the key for me is that A4's they've just released this year must match colourwise to the Coronation stock. Even if the shade may be slightly off it's better to match that attempt another shade.

[John Isherwood]

11 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

.... blood and custard coaches.

 

 

Not b&c - faux Pullman umber and cream.

 

It is common knowledge that the perception of all colours is affected by ambient lighting conditions.

 

CJI.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 15/06/2024 at 10:47, MoonM said:

Seeing as Hornby are going to the trouble of replicating the pattern on the seats (great new idea), maybe a matte finish would help the illusion as they currently just look like shiny plastic and not fabric? Admittedly, an easy amendment for the purchaser to make

For Hornby.

Well behind some of our Continental friends of course.😃

Bernard

[GrumpyPenguin]

On 15/06/2024 at 10:47, MoonM said:

Seeing as Hornby are going to the trouble of replicating the pattern on the seats (great new idea), maybe a matte finish would help the illusion as they currently just look like shiny plastic and not fabric? Admittedly, an easy amendment for the purchaser to make

They could always be populated with those cheap Chinese figures, the ones with the shiny clothes then it would all match.

[G-BOAF]

  

On 15/06/2024 at 22:13, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

One thing I can say though, is that Mallard’s photo displays that the NRM used the wrong shade in the 1986 restoration/overhaul, and that may have influenced an earlier decision by Hornby

 

This is the first I've heard of this. Can you elaborate?

The 1986 repaint was done at Doncaster, presumably by some of the same staff who painted it in 1963, and with access to the original paint colours.

What about the 2013 repaint? Was any error corrected then? Because I cannot see any difference between the colour before or after

 

Allowing for light, I cannot see any difference in blue between these two pictures, one before repainting in 1985 (cab, tender, bufferbeam etc all in 1963 Doncaster condition), one after)

 

Edited June 20 by G-BOAF

[PeterStiles]

Is it just me, or does that naked A4 look really good...

[Bucoops]

A plucked duck?

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Not b&c - faux Pullman umber and cream.

 

It is common knowledge that the perception of all colours is affected by ambient lighting conditions.

 

CJI.

Ah!  My phone deceives me!  It had such a red cast that I thought it had to be b&r.  A check on the computer revealed the truth.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

2 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

  

 

This is the first I've heard of this. Can you elaborate?

The 1986 repaint was done at Doncaster, presumably by some of the same staff who painted it in 1963, and with access to the original paint colours.

What about the 2013 repaint? Was any error corrected then? Because I cannot see any difference between the colour before or after

 

Allowing for light, I cannot see any difference in blue between these two pictures, one before repainting in 1985 (cab, tender, bufferbeam etc all in 1963 Doncaster condition), one after)

 

All I really know is that nobody else uses a shade nearly that dark.  The LNER Society clearly believes in a light blue (at least it does currently), and Mallard is closer to Oxford Blue than it is to most other full scale interpretations of Garter Blue.
 

 Mallard now looks like the photo I’ve included. I know it’s dead accurate, because I took it last year.

Edited June 20 by 1471SirFrederickBanbury
Photos didn’t work first time

[micklner]

Oxford Blue is a Dark Blue , nothing like the Mallard shade which is called Garter Blue. There is no reason why the A4 and the Coronation Coaches need to be the same exact shade. Weathering etc etc applies all the A4's were built at different times etc etc.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

7 hours ago, micklner said:

Oxford Blue is a Dark Blue , nothing like the Mallard shade which is called Garter Blue. There is no reason why the A4 and the Coronation Coaches need to be the same exact shade. Weathering etc etc applies all the A4's were built at different times etc etc.

Sorry for any confusion.  I’m just trying to use official LNER colours to make a scale of sorts. From dark to light it goes Oxford Blue, Garter Blue, and lastly Marlborough Blue.  As Oxford blue is the least controversial and most agreed upon, I’m drawing a comparison to it, as it is a relatively light and bright blue in most full scale depictions.   Marlborough Blue is also far less controversial, debated, and varying with interpretation than Garter Blue, so I’m trying to use those boundaries to define where in that spectrum a certain shade lies, which happens to vary a lot.  
 

I will also say that I am biased to the look of bittern in lighter shades and do think such a shade fits better with Marlborough Blue, but I would like to ultimately find the nearest to dammit authentic look to what it was originally, and therein lies my desire to contrast the opposite ends of the spectrum (Mallard-Bittern and Herring Gull) to find where in the middle of that minefield the true shade is.  
 

I hope you understand my strong curiosity in such a niche area of LNER history, but I do love a good controversy!  

[micklner]

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/lnerbigfour

[E100]

16 hours ago, micklner said:

There is no reason why the A4 and the Coronation Coaches need to be the same exact shade. Weathering etc etc applies all the A4's were built at different times etc etc.

 

I get the sentiment and it's a fair comment, especially against OCD like tendencies that don't stand up in the real world. Even down the direction of brushing etc will result in minor changes. That being said unless there information I'm unaware of it certainly stands to reason that the LNER, being very image conscious with this train, would have painted the various Coronation A4's at the same time as the stock with the same paint would it not?

 

I'd therefore suggest that Hornby at least attempt the same colour rather than go for something different as I'm sure that natural variation will occur anyway and I don't think them attempting another colour shade would be wise as it could up wildly different based on some of their recent QA failures. Obviously the individual modeller can adjust the tones using weathering so that option still remains for those that want it. I fear there's a chance of it going very wrong otherwise, which based on how these coaches are shaping up, and the recent A4's being some of their best, would be a crying shame.

[micklner]

24 minutes ago, E100 said:

 

I get the sentiment and it's a fair comment, especially against OCD like tendencies that don't stand up in the real world. Even down the direction of brushing etc will result in minor changes. That being said unless there information I'm unaware of it certainly stands to reason that the LNER, being very image conscious with this train, would have painted the various Coronation A4's at the same time as the stock with the same paint would it not?

 

I'd therefore suggest that Hornby at least attempt the same colour rather than go for something different as I'm sure that natural variation will occur anyway and I don't think them attempting another colour shade would be wise as it could up wildly different based on some of their recent QA failures. Obviously the individual modeller can adjust the tones using weathering so that option still remains for those that want it. I fear there's a chance of it going very wrong otherwise, which based on how these coaches are shaping up, and the recent A4's being some of their best, would be a crying shame.

     Something you can go about forever.

 

     It is forgotten by some that Trains pre war were painted using paint from various sources therefore different shades. I have read that paint was mixed in dustbins to a "correct" shade. The Coronation Locos and Coaches would have been painted at different locations times etc.

   Hornby logic who knows ??, every batch seems to come from different factories , it will be a very expensive mistake for Hornby to be daft enough to try and sell the Coronation coaches with a totally different shade of paint !!.

 

However nothing ever surprises me, where Hornby are concerned.

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, micklner said:

     Something you can go about forever.

 

     It is forgotten by some that Trains pre war were painted using paint from various sources therefore different shades. I have read that paint was mixed in dustbins to a "correct" shade. The Coronation Locos and Coaches would have been painted at different locations times etc.

   Hornby logic who knows ??, every batch seems to come from different factories , it will be a very expensive mistake for Hornby to be daft enough to try and sell the Coronation coaches with a totally different shade of paint !!.

 

However nothing ever surprises me, where Hornby are concerned.

 

Urban myth I'm afraid. 

 

I've seen the same myth applied to warships built in Cammell Lairds in that someone was mixing the paint in a bathtub and if he's had a bad day the paint was a different colour. Nice story down the pub after a few pints I suppose.

 

Good luck painting this using paint mixed in a bathtub!

 

Funny how it's all the same colour. It's as if they were professional painters who knew what they were doing.....

 

 

Jason

[JonathonAG]

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Urban myth I'm afraid. 

 

I've seen the same myth applied to warships built in Cammell Lairds in that someone was mixing the paint in a bathtub and if he's had a bad day the paint was a different colour. Nice story down the pub after a few pints I suppose.

 

Good luck painting this using paint mixed in a bathtub!

 

Funny how it's all the same colour. It's as if they were professional painters who knew what they were doing.....

 

 

Jason

 

Don't worry, next it'll be the 'St Rollox' and 'Perth' blue myth....