LNER Sentinel & Clayton Railcars - livery & other questions

[MarkC]

6 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Another little piece from the LNER Magazine (with thanks again to the GER Society for making this and much other material available), this time from November 1930, covering the Sentinel 200HP double-six-cylinder articulated car Phenomena - nothing very revelatory, but a nice photo and some possibly useful info - has anyone combined two kits to model one of these?

 

What a fascinating document - thanks for posting it.

 

A 3 mile climb at 1 in 39 - that sounds like the climb to Ravenscar, doesn't it? Particularly as it's implied that the trial finished at Scarborough.

 

Mark

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

What a fascinating document - thanks for posting it.

 

A 3 mile climb at 1 in 39 - that sounds like the climb to Ravenscar, doesn't it? Particularly as it's implied that the trial finished at Scarborough.

 

Mark

Glad it was of interest Mark; as to the location of the run, your local knowledge is much better than mine... 🗺️

[MarkC]

5 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

Glad it was of interest Mark; as to the location of the run, your local knowledge is much better than mine... 🗺️

It was a well known test route, Chas, so it's a reasonable bet. I'm always looking for information about workings on the line; the more unusual the better 🙂

 

Mark

[Chas Levin]

Another Sentinel story from the 1934 LNER Magazine, explaining the construction and use of a specially designed hand crane for use in coaling, as some depots had experienced difficulties - some nice atmosphere, plus there might be some info here of use to modellers planning a steam rail coach coaling facility:

 

 

And here's the photo, cropped, enlarged and enhanced a little:

 

[Chas Levin]

Still working my way through the LNER Magazines, some wonderful photos and interesting articles. I've reached 1936 and there hasn't been anything else of note with regard to Sentinels, but here are a couple of nice railcar photos, the first from August and the second from November of that year, just for local interest:

 

 

[31A]

4 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Still working my way through the LNER Magazines, some wonderful photos and interesting articles. I've reached 1936 and there hasn't been anything else of note with regard to Sentinels, but here are a couple of nice railcar photos, the first from August and the second from November of that year, just for local interest:

 

 

 

Ulverston to Durham seems a long way to go on one of those!  Interesting pictures, thanks for sharing!

[Chas Levin]

5 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Ulverston to Durham seems a long way to go on one of those!  Interesting pictures, thanks for sharing!

I guess when it's a Special that's been organised for you, everyone joins in, even if it means a sore seat...

[Chas Levin]

Here's another Sentinel picture from the December 1937 LNER Magazine (with thanks once again to the GER Society for making these available through their Document Vault website section).

 

It shows a little detail of the roof colouring and layout, including the coaling hatch - not terrifically enlightening I grant you, but the vast majority of railcar photos I've seen so far were taken from eye height or lower, so I thought this one worth including, as well as being a rather lovely picture in its own right:

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Chas Levin

[asmay2002]

There is a colour photo of "Hope" on page 91 of "The Big Four in Colour" taken in June 1937.  The caption descibes the lining thus "the cream panels are lined with a fine double green line" but I must admit I'm not convinced that this is apparent from the photo (it's very fine to the point of almost being invisisble).

[Chas Levin]

On 20/08/2022 at 15:39, asmay2002 said:

There is a colour photo of "Hope" on page 91 of "The Big Four in Colour" taken in June 1937.  The caption descibes the lining thus "the cream panels are lined with a fine double green line" but I must admit I'm not convinced that this is apparent from the photo (it's very fine to the point of almost being invisisble).

Hello Andy, thank you for posting and yes, you're not the only one who has puzzled over this! I think the general consensus is that there was a double line, but that the outer - and wider - one was actually black and only the inner one was green; if you look further back in this thread, there are photos which support this, but you're right that it's also referred to in some sources as double green. I've also wondered if perhaps there was more variation in the lining than previously thought...

Edited August 21, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Marshall5]

I can't see any lining on the scanned photo of 'Yorkshire Hussar' attached below but I'll dig out the original and check.

Ray.

[jwealleans]

I'm assuming you meant to say 'double lining', Ray, since the lining on the cream panels is very evident indeed.

 

Has anyone already suggested that the black lining reference may be to a line between the green and cream, as was (I think) done on the Tourist stock?

[bécasse]

Looking at a blow up of that scanned photo of Yorkshire Hussar, not only is the wider black lining obvious, but, to my mind at least, there are definite hints of a paler thinner line immediately inside the black line - which one must assume was green.

What this does show is that for modelling, in at least up to 7mm scale, only the black lining needs to be reproduced, any thinner green line would be invisible at even close viewing distances.

[Chas Levin]

44 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

I'm assuming you meant to say 'double lining', Ray, since the lining on the cream panels is very evident indeed.

 

Has anyone already suggested that the black lining reference may be to a line between the green and cream, as was (I think) done on the Tourist stock?

We looked at some photos earlier in the thread that seemed to be pretty conclusive in showing a thicker black and a thinner green line, both on the cream - if you have  look at some of the photos that Mike Trice found, starting on page 1 and onto the top of page 2 of this thread, there's an excellent enlagement, followed by discussion on the Tourist Stock lining too.

 

24 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Looking at a blow up of that scanned photo of Yorkshire Hussar, not only is the wider black lining obvious, but, to my mind at least, there are definite hints of a paler thinner line immediately inside the black line - which one must assume was green.

What this does show is that for modelling, in at least up to 7mm scale, only the black lining needs to be reproduced, any thinner green line would be invisible at even close viewing distances.

Hello, thank you for posting the enlargement - I think you're right that the thinner lining will be difficult to see, certainly with the naked eye and certainly at 4mm which I work at, but I do still intend to do it on my build.

 

2 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

I can't see any lining on the scanned photo of 'Yorkshire Hussar' attached below but I'll dig out the original and check.

Ray.

Hello Ray, thanks for posting the picture; one thing that's confusing is that the outer, thicker black line was intended to suggest recessed panelling to the eye, which it sometimes does so convincingly in photos that it's assumed that the panels were recessed, not lined - again, something we did manage to debunk further on in the thread by looking at some corners, where the lining was clearly visible around the curve, viewed from the side, showing that it was a flat surface. If you have this photo in sufficiently high resolution, zoom in and look at the front corners, where that lining goes around them, in particular the vehicle's right-hand front corner (on the left iin that image) where you should be able to see flat lining on the curved metal surface...

[Chas Levin]

Another LNER Magazine Sentinel photo, of a pair of 6 cylinder cars double-heading near Whitby, from the Novemember 1939 issue:

 

 

What with the 12 cylinder double articulated cars and the use of unpowered towing trailers and coahces, they certainly made use of these vehicles in almost every possible way...

 

Edited a few days after posting, as I reached the end of the LNER Magazines and this was the last Sentinel Cammell Railcar photo or mention of them, up to the last issue of the magazine in December 1947.

There had been quite frequent and regular Railcar news items and photos, from their introduction through to 1938, when the very detailed articles on their engineering and construction were something of a high point for the class and I've posted many of the more interesting or informative items in this thread (with grateful thanks once again to the GER Society for their kind permission to use their scans of the magazine).

I imagine there might have been further mentions after the one above, but the war and its aftermath had understandably turned everyone's attention to other matters...

Edited September 6, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Strathyre]

On 29/07/2022 at 16:40, Chas Levin said:

Another Sentinel story from the 1934 LNER Magazine, explaining the construction and use of a specially designed hand crane for use in coaling, as some depots had experienced difficulties - some nice atmosphere, plus there might be some info here of use to modellers planning a steam rail coach coaling facility:

 

 

And here's the photo, cropped, enlarged and enhanced a little:

 

100% certain that's Kipps shed - the houses in the background are on Alexander St, Coatbridge. That would make it almost certain that the railcar is Clydesdale.

[micklner]

Commerce @ Nottingham

[Chas Levin]

Nice picture Mick, thanks for posting.

 

Some good buffer beam, bogie and front fittings detail, plus of course the lining. On the one hand, the lining resembles panelling (in the intended way of course) but on the other hand it's another example of a photo that clearly shows the lining to be paint, on a flat surface, where it goes round the curved corner of the side/front...

[bécasse]

It is a (very) nice picture but I would take some convincing that the lining is the same on the front as on the sides, although it could just be the result of the (daylight) lighting being different. I wonder if it is broad black with narrow green inside on the front but just broad green on the sides?

[Chas Levin]

18 hours ago, bécasse said:

It is a (very) nice picture but I would take some convincing that the lining is the same on the front as on the sides, although it could just be the result of the (daylight) lighting being different. I wonder if it is broad black with narrow green inside on the front but just broad green on the sides?

Hello bécasse, you're right to draw attention to the apparent disappearance of the lining on the veihicle's side, but I'm sure that is - as you suggest - down to the lighting, because we have so many other photos (including many further up this thread) that show the lining covering all faces of these vehicles that it would be extraordinary if this one were finished so differently.

 

Also, if you look closely at the horizontal lining running along the bottom edge of the nearest front corner, I think you can see that the lining curves round the corner and on, into the side elevation. And if you compare it to some of the other photos earlier in the thread I think it helps make what's happening in this photo clearer...

Edited September 6, 2022 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

Although it's not to do with livery, the question of the changing styles of steps on the Sentinel cars does fall under the 'other questions' part of the title of this thread...

 

In examining photos for details of the steps while building them for my current Sentinel project, I realised that they'd changed on the various diagrams between proper flat ones and ones consisting of bars fixed between two flat sides and it made me curious as to whether there was any pattern to the changes, so I compiled a list of the types of steps used on each diagram.

Just to be clear, this relates solely to the steps at each end of the cars, one set for the driving cab and one for the coal bunker and boiler space. Both are railway staff steps and not for passenger use, which I assume is why it was considered acceptable to change to bars rather than proper steps: the passenger steps to gain entry to the main cabin and the luggage area remained as proper flat steps through all the diagrams.

 

Everyone knows what proper flat steps look like, but here's a cropped detail of the bar type of step I'm talking about, in case anyone's unfamiliar - this is Sentinel Railcar 2198:

 

 

And here's a list of which diagrams had which type for the staff steps, full step or bar:

 

Dia 14600, 152, 153 - steps front & rear

Dia 88 - steps front & rear

Dia 89 - steps front & rear

Dia 90 - steps front, bars rear

Dia 93 - steps front, bars rear

Dia 96 & 97 - bars front & rear

Dia 98 - bars front & rear

Dia 99-100 - bars front & rear

Dia 159 - steps front, bars rear

Dia 209 - bars front & rear

Dia 1258 - bars front & rear

 

This show that they moved from steps at both ends to bars at both ends, with a brief spell of steps at the front and bars at the rear, an arrangement which was briefly resurrected for Diagram 159. They also reduced the thickness or weight of the steps and the heavy duty construction of their support from that used on the first vehicles, diagram 14600, later re-classified as 152 and 153: on those earliest vehicles, the steps look as if they'd support half a dozen passengers at once!

[Wickham Green too]

Hmmmm .................... maybe that's where Mr.Bulleid got the idea for his loco steps from ?

[Chas Levin]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmmm .................... maybe that's where Mr.Bulleid got the idea for his loco steps from ?

You've got me there - I'm not familiar: did he favour bars then? I can see the appeal: they're cheaper (less material) and they also discourage passengers from going where they shouldn't...

[Wickham Green too]

Look at any photo of a Bulleid loco ............... his brother in law - Ivatt junior - used similar steps too.

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Hmmmm .................... maybe that's where Mr.Bulleid got the idea for his loco steps from ?

That is an interesting speculation because it would seem possible that the Sentinel railcars fell within Bulleid's realm when he worked for the LNER.