Z scale modelling

[47606odin]

 

[justin1985]

On 20/07/2022 at 10:46, 47606odin said:

I agree with the quality of the mechanisms in the Marklin locos. My only issue with 2 old locos I have bought is 2 of them appear to get an open circuit armature winding. If it stops in the wrong place it won’t restart, but if it starts it runs lovely. Ironically, both locos there are no replacement motors anymore 

 

The spare parts search on the Märklin website is super specific to particular catalogue numbers, so often seems to say no part is available, even if parts that fit are available for an otherwise identical later release (that might use slightly different part numbers).

 

Especially true with old three pole motors (clear plastic surrounds, unblackened wheels) which aren't available - but the equivalent 5 pole motor will always fit. (the very most recent coreless motor types probably won't be a direct fit for old models though). Try looking up spares for a more recent catalogue number of the same loco type. 

 

Worth a look, I would have thought :)

[47606odin]

16 minutes ago, justin1985 said:

 

The spare parts search on the Märklin website is super specific to particular catalogue numbers, so often seems to say no part is available, even if parts that fit are available for an otherwise identical later release (that might use slightly different part numbers).

 

Especially true with old three pole motors (clear plastic surrounds, unblackened wheels) which aren't available - but the equivalent 5 pole motor will always fit. (the very most recent coreless motor types probably won't be a direct fit for old models though). Try looking up spares for a more recent catalogue number of the same loco type. 

 

Worth a look, I would have thought :)

i have looked, specifically for a replacement for my old railcar, however the improved 5 pole replacement has been unavailable for the last 4 years apparently. So unless I buy a coreless  motor as fitted for the now no longer available railcar and attempt an engineering fix to mount it, then I am stuck with a non runner

[47606odin]

But has anyone seen my track rubber? I can’t find it anywhere! 😬

[47606odin]

Well, I have ordered 2 track cleaning rubbers. No doubt I’ll find my old one now

 

however, what walling do people use in Z scale (not brick papers) but more of an embossed plastic for stone and brick for making retaining walls and arches. Is there anything?

[DenysW]

Possibly not a proper reply, because it's not a problem I expect to face with my big-kid toy. Noch do tunnel entrances, and when I want to know what's available I go onto Gaugemaster.com's webpage and click the View All Model Railways option, which brings up various filters including a Scale filter that includes Z. Then I filter on the (much shorter) lists of suppliers and/or product types. Gaugemaster seem to represent absolutely everyone, but not to the point of stocking most of their stuff, only to listing it with giving the option of back-ordering - and waiting 2-5 months. This drives the UK Marklinistas crazy because they want Gaugemaster to stock an unrealistic 100% and/or Marklin/Noch/Faller/Vollmer to get product to the UK speedily and cheaply. Neither happens to serve the small subset of the UK market that cares about non-UK outline, let alone non-UK scale.

 

This may not help you Down Under in finding an actual local(ish) supplier, so it's just apologetically presented as a 'what's possible' strategy.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

From what I can tell, there are a number of folk like me taking an interest in this thread but who aren’t active Z-Scale modellers at present (for the usual variety of good reasons).  For those of us who are intrigued / amazed / enthralled by what can be done, and the challenges that are to be overcome, getting a good handle on the size of Z can be tricky if none is to hand.

 

I hope no-one minds, but I’ve taken a couple of quick comparison photos using an unpowered Atlas Z-Scale Minitrain I’ve bought:

 

This is how it compares with an old wooden kit for an HO passenger car (all three passenger cars in the photo are 85’ long):

 

 

I think that shot really brings it home for me!  These are two Continental N-Scale (1:160) passenger cars - marginally longer at 86’ :

 

 

A direct comparison would be better, but I don’t have any US N-Scale, sorry.  A scale length Super Chief in Z-Scale could look amazing lost in big scenery - the space saving over N would certainly seem to be enough to make the difference.

 

Hope no-one minds the thread hijack - for me it just adds to the respect I already have for those working in Z.  Keep up the good work, Keith.

[justin1985]

On 23/07/2022 at 11:39, 47606odin said:

Well, I have ordered 2 track cleaning rubbers. No doubt I’ll find my old one now

 

Normal track rubbers can be pretty harsh and abrasive on rails in any scale - something that gets debated a lot - but probably more concern in Z than in larger scales. The best track cleaning method I've had recommended to me for the fine rails used in Z or 2mmFS is a bit of lint free cloth wrapped over a scrap of wood, and sprayed with "WD-40 Specialist Contact Cleaner" (available from Screwfix etc). This gets the gunk off without scratching the rail surface at all.

 

On 23/07/2022 at 11:39, 47606odin said:

however, what walling do people use in Z scale (not brick papers) but more of an embossed plastic for stone and brick for making retaining walls and arches. Is there anything?

 

Kibri do some very nice rectangles of plastic brick, stone, slate, etc material in Z as well as N. Very similar to the Wills ones in OO. ModellbahnUnion and Modellbahn Shop Lippe, and plenty of others, supply online with the German VAT deducted, which would certainly be quicker than waiting for Gaugemaster to back order...

 

Justin 

[47606odin]

2 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

Normal track rubbers can be pretty harsh and abrasive on rails in any scale - something that gets debated a lot - but probably more concern in Z than in larger scales. The best track cleaning method I've had recommended to me for the fine rails used in Z or 2mmFS is a bit of lint free cloth wrapped over a scrap of wood, and sprayed with "WD-40 Specialist Contact Cleaner" (available from Screwfix etc). This gets the gunk off without scratching the rail surface at all.

 

 

Kibri do some very nice rectangles of plastic brick, stone, slate, etc material in Z as well as N. Very similar to the Wills ones in OO. ModellbahnUnion and Modellbahn Shop Lippe, and plenty of others, supply online with the German VAT deducted, which would certainly be quicker than waiting for Gaugemaster to back order...

 

Justin 

thanks Justin.

 

there is a video on YouTube showing new rail heads before and after cleaning with a track rubber viewed through a microscope. There are hundreds of marks on the rail made from the manufacturing process. Rail isn’t smooth even when new, so I shall continue using track rubbers as I always have done because it’s no worse than when it’s new

 

 

[DenysW]

A couple of extra "I wish I'd known" on wiring Marklin-style.

 

The Marklin alternative to soldering (to extend wires) is plugs & sockets. You can also use these to combine two wires into one, for example, to provide a common return as long as it applies to only one controller. My hands shake too much for soldering to be a good option so I'm mostly going down the plug/socket route, and trying to maintain colour-coding. If you follow me down this route - recognise that you will need a LOT of red and green sockets, several brown ones and a few yellow. And some brown plugs - i've ended up with enough plugs of the other colours, as-included by Marklin. I've yet to find a use for blue, grey, or orange, so I'm using them on 16V AC to make it more distinct from 10V AC.

 

Marklin points are neither dead-frog nor live-frog. For clarity (and at the risk of lecturing): The former direct the power only down the route selected for the train. The latter switch the polarity on one rail of the route not selected for the train, and you have to isolate it. Marklin points send the power down both legs with the correct polarity. This is fine until you want to have an island platform where one side is a branch off the main line, rejoining it. Then both sides are live from the points inwards down the platforms and if you have a train on both sides, then pro-active wiring is needed to prevent both starting up at once. Net result (my view): you need a cascade of two relays and three wiring blocks. The blocks are one short one per platform, plus one on the common side of the exit points block stretching onto the platforms to the end of both short blocks. The first relay (in my case within a semaphore signal) switches the DC power on/off to the block that includes the points. The second relay does an either/or switch, picking up power from that block that includes the points and sending it to one only of the platforms. I have to use a 16V relay for this because I want a second either/or switching on the red/green lights at the ends of the platforms that show which one's train will pull out. {The Marklin 10V relays only do one either/or, plus two on/off}. This only works because Marklin points do not de-rail trains that enter them from the 'disconnected' leg, so you don't have to provide both a 10V pulse (to the points) and a 16V pulse (to the 16V relay) at the same time to make sure the powered leg is synchronised with the points-direction. With dead-frog points (an assumption I hadn't realised I'd made), this would have simplified down to an single relay within the semaphore, and a block that did both platforms. Sigh.

 

I suspect there are other ways, but this one feels like it will work - but at the cost of having a 16V AC supply as well as the 10V AC supplied by the controllers.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

A couple of extra "I wish I'd known" on wiring Marklin-style.

 

The Marklin alternative to soldering (to extend wires) is plugs & sockets. You can also use these to combine two wires into one, for example, to provide a common return as long as it applies to only one controller. My hands shake too much for soldering to be a good option so I'm mostly going down the plug/socket route, and trying to maintain colour-coding. If you follow me down this route - recognise that you will need a LOT of red and green sockets, several brown ones and a few yellow. And some brown plugs - i've ended up with enough plugs of the other colours, as-included by Marklin. I've yet to find a use for blue, grey, or orange, so I'm using them on 16V AC to make it more distinct from 10V AC.

 

Marklin points are neither dead-frog nor live-frog. For clarity (and at the risk of lecturing): The former direct the power only down the route selected for the train. The latter switch the polarity on one rail of the route not selected for the train, and you have to isolate it. Marklin points send the power down both legs with the correct polarity. This is fine until you want to have an island platform where one side is a branch off the main line, rejoining it. Then both sides are live from the points inwards down the platforms and if you have a train on both sides, then pro-active wiring is needed to prevent both starting up at once. Net result (my view): you need a cascade of two relays and three wiring blocks. The blocks are one short one per platform, plus one on the common side of the exit points block stretching onto the platforms to the end of both short blocks. The first relay (in my case within a semaphore signal) switches the DC power on/off to the block that includes the points. The second relay does an either/or switch, picking up power from that block that includes the points and sending it to one only of the platforms. I have to use a 16V relay for this because I want a second either/or switching on the red/green lights at the ends of the platforms that show which one's train will pull out. {The Marklin 10V relays only do one either/or, plus two on/off}. This only works because Marklin points do not de-rail trains that enter them from the 'disconnected' leg, so you don't have to provide both a 10V pulse (to the points) and a 16V pulse (to the 16V relay) at the same time to make sure the powered leg is synchronised with the points-direction. With dead-frog points (an assumption I hadn't realised I'd made), this would have simplified down to an single relay within the semaphore, and a block that did both platforms. Sigh.

 

I suspect there are other ways, but this one feels like it will work - but at the cost of having a 16V AC supply as well as the 10V AC supplied by the controllers.

More useful information, thank you.  
 

I’ve been (re)-watching some videos at the start of @ian’s very enjoyable Die Ercallbahn thread.  That’s retro Märklin in HO, so uses components from the same period in history that Mini-Club dates from.  There are a lot of wires, plugs and sockets very visible there too.  The “four block” turnout switches look basically the same to me.  In other words, all this seems to be indicative of the Märklin approach, not just Z Gauge specific.  I think it’s fair to say it was a very advanced system when it was all new.

 

If Märklin assume(d) that a fair proportion of Z Scalers in their home market would be graduating from their ‘3-rail’ HO system, it would make sense to replicate that approach in the smaller scale too.  For those of us used to basic 2-rail DC / DCC it may seem quite alien - so all the information is very useful - but for others it may just be what was expected.  Just a thought, Keith.

[DenysW]

As @Keith Addenbrooke remarks, historic Marklin HO is 3-Rail AC, engineered for the third-rail to be much less obtrusive than it is with 1950s Hornby (etc.).  Nowadays they own Trix and replicate their offering under that brand name with DC motors (and DC wheels for the rest of the rolling stock). Smaller production runs in DC, showing where their market is.

 

It's an assumption, but I suspect that they couldn't get AC motors small enough and reliable enough when they started Z Scale, and were forced into 2-rail DC.

 

However, their instructions are pretty much silent on integrating their electromechanical signalling to get it to work within a layout requiring signalling blocks- despite the fact that there's enough to get them to work standalone. Hence the above post. I accept it may be supererogatory for experienced layout builders, but I only discover which of my hidden assumptions are wrong by failing, and having to order extra bits, hence the above.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

18 hours ago, DenysW said:

As @Keith Addenbrooke remarks, historic Marklin HO is 3-Rail AC, engineered for the third-rail to be much less obtrusive than it is with 1950s Hornby (etc.).  Nowadays they own Trix and replicate their offering under that brand name with DC motors (and DC wheels for the rest of the rolling stock). Smaller production runs in DC, showing where their market is.

 

It's an assumption, but I suspect that they couldn't get AC motors small enough and reliable enough when they started Z Scale, and were forced into 2-rail DC.

 

However, their instructions are pretty much silent on integrating their electromechanical signalling to get it to work within a layout requiring signalling blocks- despite the fact that there's enough to get them to work standalone. Hence the above post. I accept it may be supererogatory for experienced layout builders, but I only discover which of my hidden assumptions are wrong by failing, and having to order extra bits, hence the above.

Hi Denys, good point about the size of the motors (esp. back in the early 1970s - or when development began).

 

My post wasn’t very well worded, sorry - the people I had in mind who maybe already knew about Märklin wiring were established modellers most likely to be based in Germany and back in the day (ie: the early 1970s), plus the occasional modeller elsewhere.  I was musing that their knowledge / experience may have been what the Märklin developers had in mind.  I should have been clearer, sorry.

 

We can definitely benefit from your experience here in this thread, where (as noted before) there are likely to be others readers such as myself who are intrigued by Z but needing to understand what it involves if we’re to take the plunge and join the fun some day.  Hope that’s OK, Keith.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
(Rewording for clarity)

[DenysW]

A couple more minor points ...

 

The Marklin fishplates in Z scale are much more engineered than the HO/OO equivalents and often (for me about 30-50% of the time) break in two on attempts to remove them. This makes replacing conducting with non-conducting fishplates much more awkward, and results in breaking the track free from the sleepers. I now check with a magnifying glass each time.

 

Zscale.org reports that Marklin feeder track is incompatible with Gaugemaster's high frequency track cleaning widgets, whilst giving a a glowing account of how much these improved Z Scale performance. As the widgets also require a 16V AC supply (not supplied) they are not especially cheap - unless you've already gone for semaphore signals. I'm going to give it a try. I'm not sure this direct link works:

 

http://www.zscale.org/articles/cleaning.html

[DenysW]

Track cleaning: definitely needed, but no (as yet) definitive recommendations. Nail buffers (for human nails) distinctly improved things, and displayed on them the dirt they picked up, but don't go into tunnels easily. I was really convinced by the high frequency widget - a distinct improvement - until I turned it off and almost all of the improvement was retained. The track cleaning wagon (plus Goo Gone) derails very easily, and, pulled by a loco, can fail gauging that it and the loco both individually pass. I see a long career of annoyance ahead.

[DenysW]

My (Noch/Marklin) layout is now complete to the point where I can run multiple trains at the same time, and I can report:

 

-   I can get four independent roundy-roundies, on 3 levels plus a turning circle, in an 8' by 3' space (2.4 m by 1 m) which is fun to operate. This would be totally unachievable in HO/OO/OO9/HOe, and marginal in N.

-   These dimensions don't count the need for access space - for re-railing - around the sides and the back, or for operating at the front

 

-   Downside: the Marklin track is fairly easy to use in layout design, but VERY toy-like, with a LOT of the inner workings front and centre, and where they get in the way for ancillaries like platforms

-   Upside: the Marklin system makes electromechanical signalling and control work without Ph.D. brain-power. For me this means all trains stop at all stations, and require Fat Controller (me) intervention to re-start

-   The Marklin rolling stock is nice, and covers modern German and some (mostly 1923 onwards) steam quite well. The Faller/Vollmer/(etc.) model kits cover chocolate-boxy German, also quite well

-   Layout stereotypes (ruined castle, haunted house, house-on-fire) kits are also available, although I haven't indulged

 

I don't regret trying Z-scale. It meets my space requirements in a way that OO/HO or N couldn't. However, I don't think that display-grade layouts with 'presence' are possible using Z-scale Marklin track and its approach to integration of control and signalling accessories. DYI Track and /or other suppliers may solve this, but at an appreciably higher learning curve/entry barrier.

 

My son (early 30s) was delighted with things like the working half-barriers on a level crossing, and the lights on the signals, but his son (aged 6) didn't appreciate them.

 

[47606odin]

Okay, starting on my basic Winter Wunderland layout to have around our small Christmas tree.

 

made the base frame and painted it, and tomorrow will make the support base for the tree

 

 

 

[47606odin]

 

[47606odin]

 

[47606odin]

Winter layout taking shape

 

 

 

 

 

 

[47606odin]

 

[DenysW]

Experiences of the 89983 Marklin turntable.

 

It's BIG (for Z Scale that is). It's 95' scale on the bridge - the picture shows a Bavarian S3/6 with space on both ends! Most German steam seems to peak at just under 80', although I note condensing-tender DRG 52s are longer. On reflection this is fine (although my 0-6-0 shunter looks a bit lost on the bridge) because Z scale is not the best for inching-forwards control.

 

Installation was easy into plastic sheet - I scribed the 145 mm hole with a knife-compass then cut it out the rest of the way with a craft knife. Locating the centre point was easy once I realised that I needed to compensate for my inability to measure to 0.5 mm (or better) by including one of the variable-length 8592 straights on the approach. Because I'm using semaphone signals as well as lights I already had enough depth under the layout to accommodate the turntable wiring.

 

What it also does is eat up layout space even with the minimum 6 tracks connected, as shown. {The older version was even worse - its spurs were 220 mm, not the 165 mm shown}. I was hoping to run a track down the side of the layout next to it, but ended up concluding that it wouldn't work AND let me run a connecting line on the other side (as shown by the platform in the photo).

 

I ended up using six 8993/3 reversing-loop tracks to auto-stop the locomotives within the shed (still under construction) and gritting my teeth on the cost/waste. The Marklin model shed did come with six pieces of track, but I found them fragile, and to have the wrong length of overshoot before the locomotive stops - more suited to the previous, larger shed I feel. Thus the 8993/3 (sadly not available separately) stops all of my steam and my double railcar correctly, as shown. I've no big diesels so couldn't check them.

 

The control moves the bridge forward, self latching, by one position at a time. It's very loud, and quite commonly jams: the tracks around the edge are just enough prone to slipping to catch on the bridge.

[jjb1970]

There's some interest in Z in Japan. Rokuhan make a range of models with more limited support from other manufacturers like Tenshodo. It's very niche, the overwhelmingly dominant scale is N, but the Z which is available seems nicely done and pricing is reasonable.

[DenysW]

18 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

There's some interest in Z in Japan

Including some amazingly tight curves in the available Rohukan set-track, which is pre-ballasted.

 

Unfortunately the Japanese/German/US Z-scale seem stylistically incompatible, even if they are interoperable. By this I mean adding a few Japanese locos and buildings would look wrong in a predominantly German layout - and vice versa. I've not looked at US offerings carefully enough to think about style, but there seems a lot less set-track to work with. Not a problem for a big layout, more an issue to create tracks patterns that work properly for multi-platform stations where you want track to fit together exactly.

[DenysW]

Another minor point.

 

-   I've been double-head my cleaning truck with two 0-6-0Ts. This is necessary because it has appreciable drag, and I need to clean the track in the tunnels, especially the one with a rising incline

-   The rest of the set-up enforces no SPADs (at least in the direction on each roundy-roundy set up to be normally-forwards) with semaphore signals that also ensure there's a dead section of track when they're on stop

 

The net result is that the rear of the two engines spins its wheels when the first one is stopped by the signal at danger. Resolution: get better at stopping the locos on the controller, not by the signals. But it will make some operations harder for grandkids to understand.