SR 8 Plank Wagons - 00 Gauge

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

20 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

For a complete list including brake type and wheel version by model number click here https://southern-railway.com/2022/06/17/rapido-trains-uk-announce-sr-diagram-1379-1400-8-plank-open-wagons-in-00-and-secr-wagons-in-n-gauge-and-an-exclusive-brake-van-livery-from-train-times/ 

 

If I've read this correctly, it's worth noting that 940009 No 30004 is 'as preserved' - as per @Graham_Muz's overview, it is modelled with freighter breaks, however the Bluebell Railway discovered that the original No 30004 was built with the Morton-type - as the PBA kept no record of the original numbers, a "suitable" number was chosen after purchase from Bristol in 1980...

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by jafcreasey

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, rapidoandy said:

A quick check of my notes…

 

SKU940022 and SKU940023 (S27915 and S27930) were both IoW examples. We have a photographic evidence of both of these on the island in the condition we are producing thanks to help from Mike King (who to be honest we can blame for these wagons as I think he suggested them to us whilst helping with the SECR projects)

 

Andy

Thanks, Andy.

 

The SR Wagons series of books do tend initially to concentrate on the "as built" aspect, and only mention BR developments somewhat further in!

 

In the table I quoted, no wagons are listed with 279xx numbers. However, two or three cuppas later, I found IoW wagon transfers listed in Appendix 2 on Page 156, which lists as many as eighty-eight examples of D.1379's moved to the island in 1948-9, receiving 278xx and 279xx numbers in the process. 

 

Apologies if my earlier post was unintentionally misleading. I am now also clearer on which versions of the model will be appropriate for me. 

 

John

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[rapidoandy]

No problem at all - it’s what we are here for!

[Ian J.]

Nice to see these. I'll be after a few for S&P, but not more than a few as unfortunately they're outside my normal modelling periods (c1961 and c1985/6)

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

... The only SR-built wagons that definitely did have end-doors were 200 RCH 8-plankers built in 1931 and given D.1384.  ...

.... and the 100 1945 wagons allocated Dia.1390 ( not to mention their 1850 LNER Dia.192 brethren ).

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Basically, both.

 

9' unfitted ones (D.1379) were commonly used for coal traffic, but the 10' version (D.1400) tended to stay in the merchandise role, particularly the fitted ones, some of which also (later) received sheet rails. 

 

There was a 12' wheelbase 20-ton mineral wagon built primarily for traffic from the Kent coalfields and they didn't have end-doors either, suggesting that the Southern had little need  for such things.  What coal traffic it did handle was for domestic, industrial, and locomotive use rather than export (other than to the IoW).

 

The only SR-built wagons that definitely did have end-doors were 200 RCH 8-plankers built in 1931 and given D.1384.  

 

As far as I can make out, (table in SR Wagons Vol.4 P.29) none of the wagons built using second-hand SECR wheels etc., were classified as D.1379, though both batches of D.1400 are annotated " Rebuild Type 4 , SECR wheels ? " Note the question mark.  

 

[There's no reference in that either, to any 8-planks being sent to the IoW; coal on the island was carried in ex-LBSCR 5-plank wagons TTBOMK, of which few (if any) remained in traffic on the mainland. IoW stock got renumbered into a series reserved for the purpose.]

 

SEE LATER POST, IoW transfers are listed elsewhere in the book.

 

John

Thanks, John; I could hardly ask for a more comprehensive reply!  I’ll probably buy a 10 footer and use it in gen. merch. service and possibly a 9 footer for mineral use. 

[Dunsignalling]

43 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... and the 100 1945 wagons allocated Dia.1390 ( not to mention their 1850 LNER Dia.192 brethren ).

Hadn't spotted those in the table, despite having the kit in my stash....

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

.... and the 100 1945 wagons allocated Dia.1390 ( not to mention their 1850 LNER Dia.192 brethren ).

 

As a matter of interest, was there any location on the Southern where end-unloading was necessary?

 

John

[MartinTrucks]

4 hours ago, jafcreasey said:

 

If I've read this correctly, it's worth noting that 940009 No 30004 is 'as preserved' - as per @Graham_Muz's overview, it is modelled with freighter breaks, however the Bluebell Railway discovered that the original No 30004 was built with the Morton-type - as the PBA kept no record of the original numbers, a "suitable" number was chosen after purchase from Bristol in 1980...

 

I note that the Rapido model of Bluebell's 30004 will be fitted with disc wheels.  The wagon did come from the Port of Bristol Authority with 3-hole disc wheels but was retro-fitted with a more appropriate pair of LMS 1924-made open spoke wheelsets about 7 or 8 years ago.

Regards,

Martin

Edited June 18, 2022 by MartinTrucks

[JSpencer]

I keep saying surely they will announce something I don't care about. And boom, another order for Rapido wagons goes in.

 

This is great, all my regular running wagon stock are becoming all to modern standards with older mainline, Dapol, replica and early Bachmann stock being held in reserve (in case I need to make a lonnng train where these details don't count so much).

 

Bravo Rapido!

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

As a matter of interest, was there any location on the Southern where end-unloading was necessary?

Good question .............. and, equally, did all the zillions of privately owned end tippers ever get used as such ?

[Dunsignalling]

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Good question .............. and, equally, did all the zillions of privately owned end tippers ever get used as such ?

Judging by all the photographs showing that coal trains on most lines don't seem to have been marshalled with all the wagons the same way round, I have my doubts.

 

That said, wagons with end doors would have cost more and been less robust than ones with fixed ends, so there must have been a need.

 

Perhaps discharge installations were designed to allow end-tipping in either direction?

 

John

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

... coal trains ..... don't seem to have been marshalled with all the wagons the same way round ....

 

That would not be necessary - end tipping facilities were almost always accessed via wagon turntables.

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

That would not be necessary - end tipping facilities were almost always accessed via wagon turntables.

 

CJI.

I thought of that, but if they were so handled, trains of empties should have all ended up the same way round. There would be no point in putting them back the way they arrived, though I suppose that could have been fairly random, too. If I were doing it, though, I think it would become habitual to rotate wagon turntables in one direction .

 

I'm thinking  more of bulk unloading facilities, like export wharfs, rather than individual locations that received perhaps half-a-dozen wagons at a time, though.

 

John 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

I thought of that, but if they were so handled, trains of empties would have all ended up the same way round. There would be no point in putting them back the way they arrived.

 

I'm thinking  more of bulk unloading facilities, like export wharfs, rather than individual locations that received perhaps half-a-dozen wagons at a time, though.

 

John 

 

Marine bunkering ports would presumably be heavy users of end-tipping wagons, but I can't say that I've noticed photos of trains of such wagons with all the doors at the same end in port locations.

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Marine bunkering ports would presumably be heavy users of end-tipping wagons, but I can't say that I've noticed photos of trains of such wagons with all the doors at the same end in port locations.

 

CJI.

Which is counterintuitive, I think. Mind you, we have to get into the "cheap manpower" mindset that existed before such processes were subjected to efficiency analysis.

 

Equally, though, there'd be no benefit to the collieries in turning wagons before despatch...

 

John

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which is counterintuitive, I think. Mind you, we have to get into the "cheap manpower" mindset that existed before such processes were subjected to efficiency analysis.

 

John

 

I suppose that shoving wagons through 90 degrees on a wagon turntable could get a bit monotonous.

 

The only way of breaking the monotony might be to shove 'em the other way on occasion!

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I suppose that shoving wagons through 90 degrees on a wagon turntable could get a bit monotonous.

 

The only way of breaking the monotony might be to shove 'em the other way on occasion!

 

CJI.

True, though I was thinking more that individual turntables might rotate a little easier one way than the other, and the guys doing the shoving would undoubtedly notice that.

 

John

Edited June 18, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[petethemole]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

As a matter of interest, was there any location on the Southern where end-unloading was necessary?

The coal barge dock in Southampton (old) docks.  Wagons were end tipped into barges for bunkering ships.  I have a photo culled from a local history page but it's not on this laptop.

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

True, though I was thinking more that individual turntable might rotate a little easier one way than the other, and the guys doing the shoving would undoubtedly have noticed that.

 

John

 

I believe that the ease of rotation is almost wholly dependent on centring the wagon; once balanced, the direction of rotation should be immaterial.

 

CJI

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

I believe that the ease of rotation is almost wholly dependent on centring the wagon; once balanced, the direction of rotation should be immaterial.

 

CJI

Yes, and where there were lots of turntables serving short tipping stubs, it would probably average out anyway. So they start random and stay random!

 

John

[John Isherwood]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Yes, and where there were lots of turntables serving short tipping stubs, it would probably average out anyway. So they start random and stay random!

 

John

 

Google did find one relevant photo, albeit from New South Wales - and all the end tipping wagons on the bunkering pier had their doors at the same end!

 

Proves nothing in the wider context, though .....

 

 

CJI.

[Michael Hodgson]

Not all wagon end-tipplers were for marine use by dropping it straight into a ship's bunker. 

Some tipplers dropped the load into a hopper (as did bottom-door wagons) by dropping it between the rails, and I think some of these could tip either way.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Michael Hodgson

[Ian J.]

If you only ever use a turntable in one direction of rotation, I'm reasonably sure you'd get an undesirable wear pattern giving rise to difficulties turning in the other direction should it be necessary. I wouldn't be surprised, then, if the workers were 'told' to alternate or randomize the turns, so that wear in each direction was roughly similar.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

Google did find one relevant photo, albeit from New South Wales - and all the end tipping wagons on the bunkering pier had their doors at the same end!

 

Proves nothing in the wider context, though .....

 

 

CJI.

Some 20-ton wagons (GWR, LNWR of which I am aware, probably others) were built with doors at both ends, so possibly the issue was recognised in some quarters.

 

John