Golden Fleece 30 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Pacific231G said: The combination of 3mm/ft scale and 12mm gauge introduced (foisted on us?) by Tri-ang in 1957 has been known as TT3 since it's introduction. No it has not, show me a Tri-ang TT box with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT catalogue cover with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT price list with a 3 on the end. Tri-ang called it TT that is all. Peco added the 3 not Tri-ang. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 On 07/06/2022 at 11:27, Golden Fleece 30 said: The very first Tri-ang TT catalogue (leaflet actually) stated built to a scale of 1:120. Within a very short timescale this leaflet was issued with an amendment now saying scale 1:100. I guess they were going to use 1:120 but when they realised the motor design would not fit the bodies etc were done slightly larger. That's very interesting as eveything in the coordinated launch was definitely referring to 3mm/ft. Sidney Pritchard's article in the March 1957 justifying the compromise is worth reading. I suspect though he was biting his tongue as I've recently discovered that he was one of the 3.5mm/ft for OO faction in the Wimbledon Club. That may alsos explain why, when Peco launched Streamline he simply made it to H0 scale (certainly with a view to exports) and side-stepped all the compromises inherent in OO track. I'l be interested to see what the sleeper spacing is for this new track. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I think I will give d g couplers a go with this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Golden Fleece 30 said: No it has not, show me a Tri-ang TT box with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT catalogue cover with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT price list with a 3 on the end. Tri-ang called it TT that is all. Peco added the 3 not Tri-ang. You may be right about Tri-ang but it wasn't just Peco who added the three. I think it was rather disengenuous of Tri-ang to introduce a completely new scale and give it the same name as an already established scale and I get the impresion that others at the time thought that too. As a youngster I was using Tri-ang TT in the 1960s and I'm pretty sure we referred to it as TT-3 but Railway Modeller was the magazine we read and they and Peco were consistent in referring to TT-3. MRC normally referred to TT3 (without the hyphen) but K's, who initially made wagons for it, did refer to it as TT-3. I'll have to see what MRN called it. Track makers like Wrenn and Welkut (who offered TT Standard and TT Fine Scale track) simply called it TT but their track could be used with existing TT rolling stock from Rokal or HP as well as Tri-ang's I also have a copy of Mike Bryant's excellent little book Modelling in TT3 which was pubished in May 1958 by Railway World as Model Railway Constructor Handbook No. 1. In this, Mike Bryant does say that, "for over 20 years, a small group of "usually highly competent enthusiasts" had been "convinced that something smaller than 00 or H0 was feasible without going into the 'watchmaker' class of modelling necessary for 000 or 2mm to the foot." and that they had mostly worked in 2 1/2 mm to the foot on 12 mm gauge track. Sydney Pritchard mentioned this work in his March 1957 introduction to TT-3 but not how lomg it had been gooing on for. Mike Bryant's book was published in 1958 so that places early development of TT to before the war. He also mentions the availability of TT scale in America to a scale of 1/10 inch to the foot "which is very nearly 2 1/2 mm to the foot." suggesting that 1:120 and 2.5mm/ft may have developed independently. He does conclude this introduction by saying that 'in general the terms "Tri-ang TT" or "TT3" have been adopted, so "TT3" will be used in the text (of his book).' Edited June 16, 2022 by Pacific231G added publication date of Modelling in TT3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Golden Fleece 30 said: No it has not, show me a Tri-ang TT box with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT catalogue cover with a 3 on the end, show me a Tri-ang TT price list with a 3 on the end. Tri-ang called it TT that is all. Peco added the 3 not Tri-ang. No, but calling it TT-3 at the present moment would help to avoid the kind of confusion between it and TT-120 that you seem to be so enjoying.....🤡 Edited June 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 10 hours ago, Pacific231G said: I'l be interested to see what the sleeper spacing is for this new track. According to the PECO release it is accurate for British standard track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 23 minutes ago, whart57 said: According to the PECO release it is accurate for British standard track. Going back to the video Peco say the track is the NEM standards (Normen europäischer Modelleisenbahnen) and the medium point is "coincidently" similar to but not a B6 point. "3:04: produced to nem standards and featuring" and "3:47 coincidentally this turnout is very close to the BR B6" - so it is NOT a British design of point. We'll have to wait to see what it actually is like when the track arrives but it sounds as if it is aligned to the European market. Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 The Ian Allan abc of Model Railways (Third Edition) refers to both TT3 and TT2½, so I suspect both terms would have also been used in the Model Railway Constructor too. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Tim Dubya Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2022 8 minutes ago, luke_stevens said: "3:04: produced to nem standards and featuring" and "3:47 coincidentally this turnout is very close to the BR B6" - so it is NOT a British design of point. Why is it not, please explain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradfordbuffer Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: No, but calling it TT-3 at the present moment would help to avoid the kind of confusion between it and TT-120 that you seem to be so enjoying.....🤡 I have said on this thread and as a member of 3mm (now outcasts in the desert of scales!) 3mm society needs to stand up and make it clear what 3mm is!... Going to get washed away in scale confusion if not carefully managed It's unfortunate that triang used letters tt and now peco using tt all be it with 120 after letters..... surely n gauge could be rebranded table top too!.....all depends on your table! I'm happy to drop the tt from 3mm scale but don't think the triang tt boys and girls would be happy! And who would blame them after all these years When scale takes off as it will...some confusion and upset will happen when you order a accessory labeled tt and it comes as 3mm...and you model tt120! And vice verse! Some bits will be interchangeable just like Ho and OO some will just look silly Edited June 16, 2022 by bradfordbuffer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2022 20 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said: Why is it not, please explain? Use of the word "coincidentally" implies (agreed not specifically stated) it's not designed to a British standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Tim Dubya Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, spamcan61 said: Use of the word "coincidentally" implies (agreed not specifically stated) it's not designed to a British standard. Still not getting you. Nearly a B6 could be a B5.5 or B6.5 and therefore more of a prototypical design, to me it doesn't mean it's not a British design. Peco SL-1296 "The turnouts conform to NEM standards and the medium radius geometry is a close match to British Railways’ B6 standard." Edited June 16, 2022 by Tim Dubya guff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2022 Well I model in Nm9 and Peco call it Nn because two of us came up with a name for it separately but Gordon was the first to publish an article so they went with his. I continue to use mine as I think it describes it better but ultimately I don’t care and the two nomenclature creators don’t bother to argue about it 😉 Now Nn could be N narrow gauge or N on nine mm track, neither of which are strictly accurate describes of metre gauge. Nm9 to me stood for N (scale) m (metre gauge) 9 (mm track) but on 9mm track how can it be metre gauge in N scale? So actually neither is correct but if you explain it once it’s pretty simple and no one seems to have trouble with either, plus depending on the country of origin N can be 1:148, 1:150 or 1:160 and that’s been understood and lived with for 50+ years. 😀 So if we accept there’s TT as a broad heading and that there’s at least two gauges and scales all it actually needs is manufacturers to include scale and gauge on info and boxes and there shouldn’t be a problem especially as any new entrant is probably going to go rtr they are unlikely to get confused because if they want it finescale they’ll have already discovered the 2.5 and 3mm options to look for. Ok so hopefully a few more will jump in with kits over the next year to go with the Heljan loco and Peco should by then have a reasonable supply of track and a few other kits and wagons on the way. It’s not going to explode as a product, like smartphones, but a steady take up is all Peco have probably planned for going by the slow and steady 009 approach. If Heljan had announced a Scotty 37 and some mk1’s I’d be a watching with more interest simply because I find the N ones a little too small and don’t quite look enough but I find OO quite limiting in scenery in the space I have. So this intermediate scale would be a good compromise if the locos looked indistinguishable to the OO ones but a bit smaller. It would only take that to change me from watching with interest to planning 😉 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 36 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said: Still not getting you. Nearly a B6 could be a B5.5 or B6.5 and therefore more of a prototypical design, to me it doesn't mean it's not a British design. Peco SL-1296 "The turnouts conform to NEM standards and the medium radius geometry is a close match to British Railways’ B6 standard." There are many different types of prototype track standards. A B6 point is a particular British prototype point. In the US that would be a #6 switch but the tie (sleeper) spacing, frog angle would be different. The same applied to European pointwork: the dimensions are different. Peco say the "medium radius geometry is a close match to British Railways’ B6 standard" means that it is NOT a B6 point but it will have a similar length, frog angle, etc. British (model) point standards are not derived the same way the NEM standards. Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 This is the link to NEM110: https://www.morop.eu/downloads/nem/de/nem110_d.pdf And this is to NEM 124: https://www.morop.eu/downloads/nem/de/nem124_d.pdf The Peco point work with match these standards. Amy similarity to British point work is a coincidence... Luke Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyRule1 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) This was Peco's view on the gauge / scale etc status back in 1961 Edited June 16, 2022 by MyRule1 location of picture 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said: I have said on this thread and as a member of 3mm (now outcasts in the desert of scales!) 3mm society needs to stand up and make it clear what 3mm is!... Going to get washed away in scale confusion if not carefully managed It's unfortunate that triang used letters tt and now peco using tt all be it with 120 after letters..... surely n gauge could be rebranded table top too!.....all depends on your table! I'm happy to drop the tt from 3mm scale but don't think the triang tt boys and girls would be happy! And who would blame them after all these years When scale takes off as it will...some confusion and upset will happen when you order a accessory labeled tt and it comes as 3mm...and you model tt120! And vice verse! Some bits will be interchangeable just like Ho and OO some will just look silly I'm not sure why it's not the 3mm Societies job to make things clear, they weren't the ones who muddied the waters. However, I would have thought the clue is in the name - 3mm Society - that is, modelling in 3mm to 1 foot. It works OK for the 5.5mm Association after all. Tri-ang TT is also 3mm to the foot, so this fits in the Society remit easily, but they also losely support what has been up until now, continental TT. You can't drop TT from Tri-ang TT, unless you intend re-writing history for the last 50+ years, and altering a lot of boxes and the models within. In the future, realistically, how many people for TT120 are going to order an accesory and get a Tri-ang one? This is a new scale, with a load of new manufacturers and retailers. With the exception of scrabing around eBay for tat, I suspect most will be safe, and those that make a mistake will learn for the next time. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted June 16, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 16, 2022 6 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: and those that make a mistake will learn for the next time. Or just enjoy the model as many who put HO alongside OO do. My Father changed his layout to various regional themes and he’s always happy for some transcontinental interlopers to visit as he enjoys seeing the models. It’s a broad church and it’s only really an issue if someone’s claiming such a mix is a finescale model of X or the hobby-critics are getting excited about their latest ‘spot & tell’ 🤣 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradfordbuffer Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: I'm not sure why it's not the 3mm Societies job to make things clear, they weren't the ones who muddied the waters. However, I would have thought the clue is in the name - 3mm Society - that is, modelling in 3mm to 1 foot. It works OK for the 5.5mm Association after all. Tri-ang TT is also 3mm to the foot, so this fits in the Society remit easily, but they also losely support what has been up until now, continental TT. You can't drop TT from Tri-ang TT, unless you intend re-writing history for the last 50+ years, and altering a lot of boxes and the models within. In the future, realistically, how many people for TT120 are going to order an accesory and get a Tri-ang one? This is a new scale, with a load of new manufacturers and retailers. With the exception of scrabing around eBay for tat, I suspect most will be safe, and those that make a mistake will learn for the next time. Yep agree and err disagree....all at the same time....how many times when you where out with Flookburgh did you get asked if it was tt! Err no 3mm14.2mm! Bit like tt but..... Different suppliers have different ideas.. Lincon loco lists there models as 3mm Ahead of the game 3smr states and quote.....3SMR (3mm Scale Model Railway) suppliers for British outline TT model trains including; locomotives, coaches, vans, wagons, wheels, motors, gears, track, scenic items, road vehicles, materials, transfers(decals), couplings, components and sundry items. We supply 12mm gauge Triang TT course scale, 12mm gauge etc...not knocking them as 2 weeks ago statement was fine and accepted! So some work to do! In pecos defence states tt120 so a good start.... When Heljan announced the c31 got lots of messages....wow look new loco to run on your brilliant British finescale points....etc all 4mm modelers G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators AY Mod Posted June 16, 2022 Administrators Share Posted June 16, 2022 There is now a new Scale Specific subforum for 2.5mm scale / TT120 (keep the 3mm scale out of it!) content - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/369-25mm-scale-tt120/ Topics such as this which are specific to the manufacturer should remain where they are. 2 3 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 29 minutes ago, AY Mod said: There is now a new Scale Specific subforum for 2.5mm scale / TT120 (keep the 3mm scale out of it!) content - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/369-25mm-scale-tt120/ Topics such as this which are specific to the manufacturer should remain where they are. The existing 3mm subforum is not the liveliest as it is, this might be a real tumbleweed one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, whart57 said: The existing 3mm subforum is not the liveliest as it is, this might be a real tumbleweed one. Maybe, but it's a brand new scale for UK modellers, and interest is likely to grow, so we're trying to keep the general discussions in one place rather. At the moment, as soon as anyone suggests they might make a TT120 item, it gets a thread that quickly degenerates into a general discussion. 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted June 16, 2022 Author Share Posted June 16, 2022 Phil, after all these years haven't you realised that trying to corral the discussion of railway modellers is like herding cats, only even less likely to succeed ...... 😉 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 We can only try! If it doesn't work, we'll scrap all the sub-forums and just have one called "Miscellaneous" 😀 1 1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators AY Mod Posted June 16, 2022 Administrators Share Posted June 16, 2022 38 minutes ago, whart57 said: after all these years haven't you realised that trying to corral the discussion of railway modellers is like herding cats But if I create a pen for them we've got somewhere to confine them to. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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