GWR 101 Class - Hornby R2665

[rynd2it]

I just picked up one of these at a sale and did a little research into it. According one source, there was only one example built and it was scrapped in 1911, my Iam Allen book from 1960 makes no mention of it. How come Hornby released it in BR green?

 

 

[Hal Nail]

i dint think it was ever a particularly serious model and they were just generating a few extra novelty sales.

[rynd2it]

Ok. Thanks. I only bought it as it looked neat and would suit a small branch line

[Steamport Southport]

The real one was built as an experimental locomotive as a means for cheaply powering a railmotor on little used branch lines.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railmotor

 

 

Very much an experiment and was rebuilt numerous times. It was eventually used as the works shunter at Swindon. Scrapped in 1911 when it needed an overhaul.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_101_Class

 

The Hornby model is not bad above the footplate. But the chassis is not authentic. It was really made to replace the old Nellie as the entry level/train set model. But since then has been released in a lot of fictional liveries.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

It was originally built in 1902 for use on the Wrington Vale Light Railway, in North Somerset, a stub off the Cheddar branch, and was at first oil fired, the oil burning equipment being designed by William Holden, who had left Swindon and taken up a post as CME on the GER by the time this loco was built.  It is known as a Holden 0-4-0 in consequence, but was actually designed by Churchward.  Rebuilt as a coal burner, it never went into service on the Wrington Valley, and was used as the works pilot at Swindon, being withdrawn in 1911.  I've not heard of it being an experimental railmotor loco unit, and it would be a little large for such use, but just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean it never happened...

 

Hornby introduced it as a budget entry level model based on the 'Smokey Joe' mechanism, which has it's limitations and leads to the loco being not to scale.  It has been produced in many liveries, but never TTBOMK in the correct unlined GW green without any GW crest.  It has been produced in the 1945-7 G W R initials livery, which is of course incorrect.  As is BR green.  It's been in the Hornby catalogue for many years (with very large numbers being produced) and this is obvious when one compares it to current hi-fi RTR models.  It's mechanism was redesigned a few years ago to give more acceptable slow running performance; the original is difficult to control and has a highly unrealistic top speed! 

 

The prototype had outside Joy valve gear which is not represented on the Hornby model.  AFAIK nobody else has ever produced this loco in RTR or kit form.

[Michael Edge]

Above the frames the Hornby model is remarkably accurate, this is one rebuilt with the correct running gear, including the joy valve motion.

101 doesn't appear to have ever carried any GWR insignia.

Model by David Edge

[rodent279]

I've always thought the Hornby version was a neat little model. There are so few photos of the real thing that the limitations below the running plate will pass by most people.

Which of its various incarnations does R2665 depict-I'm guessing the final coal fired version?

Edited April 20, 2022 by rodent279

[rynd2it]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Above the frames the Hornby model is remarkably accurate, this is one rebuilt with the correct running gear, including the joy valve motion.

101 doesn't appear to have ever carried any GWR insignia.

Model by David Edge

Nice, I'd be very interested if you have documentation, parts list etc of the chassis conversion

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was originally built in 1902 for use on the Wrington Vale Light Railway, in North Somerset, a stub off the Cheddar branch, and was at first oil fired, the oil burning equipment being designed by William Holden, who had left Swindon and taken up a post as CME on the GER by the time this loco was built.  It is known as a Holden 0-4-0 in consequence, but was actually designed by Churchward.  Rebuilt as a coal burner, it never went into service on the Wrington Valley, and was used as the works pilot at Swindon, being withdrawn in 1911.  I've not heard of it being an experimental railmotor loco unit, and it would be a little large for such use, but just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean it never happened...

 

This whole saga is very reminiscent of the later "Leader" story, in that, although ostensibly intended for the Wrington Vale, I suspect it was always intended as an experimental loco. If it was meant for service, it seems likely that at least two would have been built at the same time, and the WVLR had already been open and running at least a year with existing locos, although the interesting gradients made the line a good test of a loco. 

I don't know which Holden was responsible for the design of the original oil-fired boiler.  The one who became the GER CME was James Holden, who left Swindon in 1885, and was using oil in GER locos in the nineties.  I cannot recall his schemes involving such radical designs as in 101, and any influence in Swindon would seem tenuous after such a long break. The only William Holden I can find was the actor, which is not very helpful, although stranger things have happened in a profession where they often have plenty of time on their hands. 

The original boiler was considerably altered and reduced in size in July 1902, and another unusual design of boiler, based on Gustav Lentz's ideas, was fitted in 1903.  It was this last boiler, with a corrugated firebox, that, in 1905, was converted into coal firing.

As for @Steamport Southport's connection with railmotors, this seems unlikely as the first memorandum regarding them appeared in April 1903, and resulted in a pair of units being built, for actual service on the Stroud Valley line.  The suggestion in an earlier thread on this same topic, that No. 101 was numbered as part of the railmotor scheme, seems purely coincidental, as although there were 99 railmotor bodies, the last wasn't built until 1908, and there were actually 112 "motor" units available to power them!

[The Johnster]

I meant James Holden of course, another senior moment!

[Michael Edge]

42 minutes ago, rynd2it said:

Nice, I'd be very interested if you have documentation, parts list etc of the chassis conversion

 

 

I don't seem to have a drawing for this model either on computer or paper, it was built a long time ago when David was a teenager. There is a GA drawing in Jim Russell's book on GW locos, the frames may have been cut from a tracing of this, wheels are Romford but I don't think there were any other bought parts in it. The model is in Jersey now so I can't get at it very easily.

[rynd2it]

11 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I don't seem to have a drawing for this model either on computer or paper, it was built a long time ago when David was a teenager. There is a GA drawing in Jim Russell's book on GW locos, the frames may have been cut from a tracing of this, wheels are Romford but I don't think there were any other bought parts in it. The model is in Jersey now so I can't get at it very easily.

OK, thanks for the reply

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

This whole saga is very reminiscent of the later "Leader" story, in that, although ostensibly intended for the Wrington Vale, I suspect it was always intended as an experimental loco. If it was meant for service, it seems likely that at least two would have been built at the same time, and the WVLR had already been open and running at least a year with existing locos, although the interesting gradients made the line a good test of a loco. 

I don't know which Holden was responsible for the design of the original oil-fired boiler.  The one who became the GER CME was James Holden, who left Swindon in 1885, and was using oil in GER locos in the nineties.  I cannot recall his schemes involving such radical designs as in 101, and any influence in Swindon would seem tenuous after such a long break. The only William Holden I can find was the actor, which is not very helpful, although stranger things have happened in a profession where they often have plenty of time on their hands. 

The original boiler was considerably altered and reduced in size in July 1902, and another unusual design of boiler, based on Gustav Lentz's ideas, was fitted in 1903.  It was this last boiler, with a corrugated firebox, that, in 1905, was converted into coal firing.

As for @Steamport Southport's connection with railmotors, this seems unlikely as the first memorandum regarding them appeared in April 1903, and resulted in a pair of units being built, for actual service on the Stroud Valley line.  The suggestion in an earlier thread on this same topic, that No. 101 was numbered as part of the railmotor scheme, seems purely coincidental, as although there were 99 railmotor bodies, the last wasn't built until 1908, and there were actually 112 "motor" units available to power them!

 

The railmotor idea mooted wasn't like the GWR system of having a locomotive mounted in a body, that came later, more the LSWR system of a dedicated locomotive and a trailer car or two.

 

Look at this C14. Does the concept look familiar? Small powerful locomotive with small wheels, outside valve gear, short wheelbase. Built about the same time and was equally short lived as a 2-2-0T. There was also a 0-4-0T version - S14. Most were sold off to the Admiralty as shunters during WWI. Although three survived as shunters until the 1950s.

 

 

 

The small wheels would have made it useless for virtually anything else. Especially since the GWR had hundreds of 0-4-2Ts and 2-4-0Ts for passenger work and plenty of locomotives for shunters.

 

Look at the number on this one. Coincidence?

 

 

 

Jason

[JohnR]

Perhaps some confusion with the Triang Nellie - which was based on the C14?

 

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It was originally built in 1902 for use on the Wrington Vale Light Railway, in North Somerset, a stub off the Cheddar branch, and was at first oil fired, the oil burning equipment being designed by William Holden, who had left Swindon and taken up a post as CME on the GER by the time this loco was built.  It is known as a Holden 0-4-0 in consequence, but was actually designed by Churchward.  Rebuilt as a coal burner, it never went into service on the Wrington Valley, and was used as the works pilot at Swindon, being withdrawn in 1911.  I've not heard of it being an experimental railmotor loco unit, and it would be a little large for such use, but just because I've never heard of it doesn't mean it never happened...

 

Hornby introduced it as a budget entry level model based on the 'Smokey Joe' mechanism, which has it's limitations and leads to the loco being not to scale.  It has been produced in many liveries, but never TTBOMK in the correct unlined GW green without any GW crest.  It has been produced in the 1945-7 G W R initials livery, which is of course incorrect.  As is BR green.  It's been in the Hornby catalogue for many years (with very large numbers being produced) and this is obvious when one compares it to current hi-fi RTR models.  It's mechanism was redesigned a few years ago to give more acceptable slow running performance; the original is difficult to control and has a highly unrealistic top speed! 

 

The prototype had outside Joy valve gear which is not represented on the Hornby model.  AFAIK nobody else has ever produced this loco in RTR or kit form.

 

Timelines a bit out there.

 

GWR 101 came out in 1978. I got one of the first ones for Christmas in the train set. 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=15

 

 

The CR Pug didn't appear until 1980 with "Smokey Joe" not being released until much later. Note the original version had wire handrails which were discontinued due them later being sold as toys.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=142

 

It actually appeared as Desmond before Smokey Joe. An attempt at making a generic industrial.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=195

 

Smokey Joe didn't appear until 1983 along with the first "generic" version of 101 which was Roger.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=323

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=1166

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Perhaps some confusion with the Triang Nellie - which was based on the C14?

 

 

No. I know about Nellie.

 

I'm talking about the concept of the railmotors. Look at the chassis rather than the stuff above the footplate. 

 

This was part of an experiment to see which method of powering them was best. A small locomotive or an internal power source. They went for the SRM type instead. 101 never left Swindon as it was a failure.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_steam_rail_motors

 

This is the relevant part and why they needed something more powerful.

 

Quote

The relatively limited accommodation led to problems at busy periods, and driving trailers were constructed with a mechanical facility to control the main unit, so that the train could be driven from the driving trailer, maintaining the avoidance of running round at terminals. However the available power in the small steam engine was a limitation, especially on routes with steep gradients. Maggs records that on the Wrington Vale Light Railway it was frequently necessary for the rail motor to stop on the 1 in 50 gradient to raise enough steam to continue.[1]

 

 

Some details of the Wrington Vale branch here.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrington_Vale_Light_Railway

 

 

Jason

[JimC]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Look at the number on this one. Coincidence?

As numbers around 100 were used for pretty much all prototype locomotives in the Dean/Churchward era I think its pretty safe to say yes, coincidence. For example: 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by JimC

[rodent279]

The L&Y railmotors were a kind of halfway house-locomotive+trailer mounted together.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%26YR_railmotors

[SM42]

This and the Smokey Joe / Desmond must be Hornby's best ever investments 

44 years old and still going.  I can think of at least 4 liveries it has been released in and there probably lots more

 

I have two

 

An original 1978 version  with its Scalextric motor and the 1985 GWR 150 commemorative edition.

 

The original, despite much abuse by an 8 year old me , still has all it bits and still runs at warp factor 9, taking to two wheels on 1st radius curves. 

 

For all it's faults, as  a toy  and starter train set loco it has to be classed as a success and a reasonably scale one at that it seems 

 

I have no use for one, but I am very fond of the two I have.

 

Use it, enjoy it. 

 

Andy

 

[Compound2632]

I'm fairly sure the "Holden" description applies to the use of James Holden's system of oil firing. As @The Johnster noted, he was ex-Swindon but had been at Stratford since 1885. But remember that even the Swindon Locomotive Drawing Office was not a fortress with the drawbridge up; all these locomotive superintendents and their senior drawing office staff knew each other - if they weren't directly related or married to each other's sisters or daughters or aunts, they had ample opportunities to exchange ideas at the meetings of the various professional Institutions.

[Nick Holliday]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The railmotor idea mooted wasn't like the GWR system of having a locomotive mounted in a body, that came later, more the LSWR system of a dedicated locomotive and a trailer car or two.

 

Look at this C14. Does the concept look familiar? Small powerful locomotive with small wheels, outside valve gear, short wheelbase. Built about the same time and was equally short lived as a 2-2-0T. There was also a 0-4-0T version - S14. Most were sold off to the Admiralty as shunters during WWI. Although three survived as shunters until the 1950s.

I think you may be  mixing up dates here. No. 101 was built in 1902. The first inkling of railmotors on the GWR came in April 1903, and the trial of the LSWR/LBSCR Joint Steam Railcar took place in May 1903, and the first GWR pure railmotor appeared in October 1903. According to John Lewis (Great Western Autotrailers) the first un-powered trailer appeared in September 1904.  Meanwhile, on the LSWR, after producing more steam railmotors, the "Motor Tanks" of C14 class entered service in September 1906, including the purpose-built trailer coaches.  The C14 concept was strongly grounded on the steam railmotor design, hardly a "concept". The coincidentally numbered 101 was an S14 0-4-0 tank, and appeared even later - in September 1910.

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The relatively limited accommodation led to problems at busy periods, and driving trailers were constructed with a mechanical facility to control the main unit, so that the train could be driven from the driving trailer, maintaining the avoidance of running round at terminals. However the available power in the small steam engine was a limitation, especially on routes with steep gradients. Maggs records that on the Wrington Vale Light Railway it was frequently necessary for the rail motor to stop on the 1 in 50 gradient to raise enough steam to continue.[1]

I cannot find any reference to GWR steam railmotors running a service on the WVLR in Lewis (GW Steam Rail Motors and their Services) although it is possible that trials were run on the line, although the level of traffic on it was hardly worth the effort, and, AFAIK, no additional halts were introduced to help improve the traffic levels. The line seemed to manage with small orthodox tank locos until the passenger service ended in 1931.

[DCB]

Hornby modelled 101 after the 1905 coal burning rebuild.  The original 101 was  built before the Railmotors, may have been intended for light railway use including the Wrington Vale railway as an alternative to Railmotors, a cheaper lighter branch loco compared to the 2021 Saddle Tanks then in or just finishing production. This 1902 vintage no 101 was stuffed full of new ideas including the Holden Oil burning apparatus and a very unusual firebox configuration, a saddle tank for oil and  Joy valve gear and was clearly unsuccessful.  The even weirder vertical boiler walschaerts valve gear 0-4-0 adopted as the Railmotor power bogie followed the following year.  101 first received a revised firebox and in 1905  it was extensively rebuilt as per the Hornby model with a round topped taper boiler with taper on the front ring, and  it looks to me like it acquired Walschaerts valve gear at the same time as it is worked from a return crank, rather than from the connecting rod as per Joy gear. 

It's such a shame Hornby didn't choose one of the many saddle tanks the GWR acquired from South Wales railways , ore even the LSWR B4.    The 1960 era Nellie is a fun model much more robust than the 101/ Caley Pug but it just don't work for me as the front axle is where the cylinders should be.   Outside cylinders make it a lot more believable .   The C 14  its based on looks even more unlikely.

[Halvarras]

7 hours ago, SM42 said:

This and the Smokey Joe / Desmond must be Hornby's best ever investments 

44 years old and still going.  I can think of at least 4 liveries it has been released in and there probably lots more

 

I have two

 

An original 1978 version  with its Scalextric motor and the 1985 GWR 150 commemorative edition.

 

The original, despite much abuse by an 8 year old me , still has all it bits and still runs at warp factor 9, taking to two wheels on 1st radius curves. 

 

For all it's faults, as  a toy  and starter train set loco it has to be classed as a success and a reasonably scale one at that it seems 

 

I have no use for one, but I am very fond of the two I have.

 

Use it, enjoy it. 

 

Andy

 

 

I hadn't owned one of these until I spotted one on a trader's stand at an exhibition in Wiltshire a few years ago with 'TRURO' in big letters on its tank sides and numbered 107 - as a former resident of that city I had to have it even though like yourself I had no use for it! Its existence came as a surprise so I had to look it up - it was the motive power for Hornby's 'Western Messenger' set. Ignoring the simplified running gear I think it's a neat little model. Absolutely no idea why they chose to letter it 'TRURO' though.

 

It now sits on a shelf in my modelling den coupled to a 'Fowey' shunter's truck, two 'St Austell' open wagons and a 'Bodmin' brake van.......yeah, it kinda started something!

 

PS then there's the 'Tolgus Tin Redruth' version - odd livery but desirable as I was born there - 'Truro' may yet get a shelf buddy 😀

Edited April 21, 2022 by Halvarras
Just remembered the tin version!

[rodent279]

101 would make a nice new build in 12":ft scale. Perfect for a small preserved linea couple of miles long, with a couple of mk1's.

Probably not cost effective though, given the amount of unrestored industrials around.

[JimC]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

101 would make a nice new build in 12":ft scale. Perfect for a small preserved linea couple of miles long, with a couple of mk1's.

Probably not cost effective though, given the amount of unrestored industrials around.

Also begs the question of whether it would be advisable to recreate something that was demonstrably not that great in the first place.