Match wagons and shunter's trucks

[6990WitherslackHall]

I recently took ownership of a Bachmann 37-980Z Conflat A Shunter's running wagon. I also own a Hornby GWR shunter's truck, which I know a bit about. Both will be used on my OO gauge I'm still working on. (Not Grosmont MPD, the other one). 

 

I've found several pictures of a class 03 with a match truck but know nothing about them.

 

What I want to know is where, when and how would they both be used. 

[Hal Nail]

There are at least 2 previous topics covering exactly this. Both come up if you do a Google search but for some reason can't be accessed at the moment: maybe they will reappear as the problems get ironed out.

 

Edot: just twigged the links probably point to the old server or similar.

 

Rmweb search found one of them now linked below

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hal Nail

[Hal Nail]

 

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

They seemed to. For Match Wagons, I'd suggest using a Bachmann Conflat A; the ones around Newcastle used a mixture of these and Conflat Ls, which had three diamond-shaped holes cut in the floor.

 

[The Johnster]

At the risk of stating the obvious, they are two entirely different things for two entirely differernt purposes.  A GW shunter's truck, or 'Chariot', was a short wheebase vehicle with footboards for yard shunters to ride on, it being considered safer and more convenient than the loco footsteps.  Handrails and a toolbox are provided, and the truck carries brake sticks. shunting poles, sprags, and re-railers. 

 

A match truck can be a vehicle to support the end of a crane jib, and in this case will usually have toolboxs carrying equipment related to operating the crane, or a runner to accompany a small diesel shunting engine such as an 03 or 04 to assist with the operation of track circuits within station limits at large stations, a practice associated with the Eastern and North Eastern regions of BR.  Usually Conflats, they do not have footboards because 03s and 04s have proper recessed shunter's steps for the shunters to ride on. 

 

Match trucks also include vehicles modified to act as tenders for small 'pug' shunting engines, particularly in Scotland.  The are used as coal tenders but also carry shunting poles, brake sticks, and so on, but they are not directly used as Shunter's trucks/Chariots or in connection with the operation of track circuits.  This sort of thing could be seen on industrial systems as well, particularly where the loco worked some distance away from the loco shed on large sprawling industrial sites.

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, they are two entirely different things for two entirely differernt purposes.  A GW shunter's truck, or 'Chariot', was a short wheebase vehicle with footboards for yard shunters to ride on, it being considered safer and more convenient than the loco footsteps.  Handrails and a toolbox are provided, and the truck carries brake sticks. shunting poles, sprags, and re-railers. 

Interesting that since this topic last cropped up I have obtained a copy of Neil Parkhouse’s excellent book West Gloucester and Wye Valley Lines, and there are a number of photographs of shunting operations at Llanthony Sidings, Gloucester Docks on different dates in 1967 with class 03s D2136 and D2137. In every case, there is a GW type shunter’s truck next to the leading end of the 03 - in one instance there are several staff riding on the truck. The point here is that in spite of 03s having steps and rails for shunters, the use of GW style shunter’s trucks persisted at least until this part of the diesel era, and even later no doubt in some locations (I think some locations were given in a previous thread). 

Edited April 6, 2022 by MidlandRed

[Steamport Southport]

30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

Match trucks also include vehicles modified to act as tenders for small 'pug' shunting engines, particularly in Scotland.  The are used as coal tenders but also carry shunting poles, brake sticks, and so on, but they are not directly used as Shunter's trucks/Chariots or in connection with the operation of track circuits.  This sort of thing could be seen on industrial systems as well, particularly where the loco worked some distance away from the loco shed on large sprawling industrial sites.

 

Not really match trucks, they were actually classed as tenders. They belonged to the locomotive department. A Neilson Pugs coal capacity was pitifully small even for a small tank engine.

 

The only really difference to a normal tender was they carried no water and they were made so they could be coupled to the next loco to come on duty.

 

You can see what they were like in this model. The kit is for the NBR version. Pity it's not available in 4mm scale.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon Kit Pages/Tender Truck.html

 

 

Jason

 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Interesting that since this topic last cropped up I have obtained a copy of Neil Parkhouse’s excellent book West Gloucester and Wye Valley Lines, and there are a number of photographs of shunting operations at Llanthony Sidings, Gloucester Docks on different dates in 1967 with class 03s D2136 and D2137. In every case, there is a GW type shunter’s truck next to the leading end of the 03 - in one instance there are several staff riding on the truck. The point here is that in spite of 03s having steps and rails for shunters, the use of GW style shunter’s trucks persisted at least until this part of the diesel era, and even later no doubt in some locations (I think some locations were given in a previous thread). 

They certainly remained in use up to the late 60s with 08s in the Cardiff area, and of course 08s had recessed riding steps at the front as well.  I can recall watching Pengam coal yard being shunted by a D95xx with one in the late 60s from Pengam Bridge, a favourite Cardiff spotting location, and D95xx were very generously provided with recessed shunter's steps, at both ends! The persistence of them was probably at least in part due to the unquestioned continuation of established practice, but dock areas often featured movements a long way away from the shunter's cabin, and this is precisely the sort of thing that the Chariots were provided to cater for.

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

They certainly remained in use up to the late 60s with 08s in the Cardiff area, and of course 08s had recessed riding steps at the front as well.  I can recall watching Pengam coal yard being shunted by a D95xx with one in the late 60s from Pengam Bridge, a favourite Cardiff spotting location, and D95xx were very generously provided with recessed shunter's steps, at both ends! The persistence of them was probably at least in part due to the unquestioned continuation of established practice, but dock areas often featured movements a long way away from the shunter's cabin, and this is precisely the sort of thing that the Chariots were provided to cater for.

There was a GWR-design at the BP&GVR yard at Pembrey and Burry Port until it shut in the early 1980s. There's a photo in 'Pre-Nationalisation Freight Wagons on British Railways' by David Larkin. 

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

Interesting that since this topic last cropped up I have obtained a copy of Neil Parkhouse’s excellent book West Gloucester and Wye Valley Lines, and there are a number of photographs of shunting operations at Llanthony Sidings, Gloucester Docks on different dates in 1967 with class 03s D2136 and D2137. In every case, there is a GW type shunter’s truck next to the leading end of the 03 - in one instance there are several staff riding on the truck. The point here is that in spite of 03s having steps and rails for shunters, the use of GW style shunter’s trucks persisted at least until this part of the diesel era, and even later no doubt in some locations (I think some locations were given in a previous thread). 

Generally the Shunters' trucks had teh advantage of being able to carry all sorts of other stuff (as partially listed by Johnster although I doubt a re-railing ramp would be among them as they were extremely heavy (and not much use as chait rs tended to get smashed if they were used).  But s hunting poles (although some diesel shunter footsteps had a socket for them anyway,) brake sticks, sprags (when they were still about - and far more useful for re-railing than a re-railing ramp), spare lamps, cans of lamp oil and so on.

 

I think many yards hung onto them as long as they could and there were plenty about int the late '60s although they seem to have disappeared by the early half of the 1970s - we certainly didn't have them  in any of the various yards where was involved during that period although there had been at least one still in regular use at Reading West Jcn when I was there in 1967.  I did however occasionally see a BR standard pattern brakevan used as a Shunters' runner (to use what seems to have been the most common everyday name for them) but there weren't much use where sight lines from the cab were poor.

 

Incidentally the v best way to work a diesel shunter on u yard work was with the bonnet leading towards the part of the yard which was being shunted.  although it didn't necessarily offer the best view it was far and away the most comfortable way to drive what was in essence a not very comfortable thing to drive anyway.  If you shunted cab first you were basically twisting your body all the time.  Hence places where there were Up and Down yards would have their shunting pilots facing two different ways to ensure that each did the bulk of their work with the cab towards the roads which were being shunted.  In the early '80s I had a major ruck with one of my Drivers who was shunting wagons over a weighbridge and had complained to the staff reps that the job was impossible - which was a nonsense as the engine was the right way round to shunt and I duly told him to get down while I did it and I had no trouble at all spotting wagons on the weighbridge with the bonnet towards them and the weighbridge.  I suspect that he just wanted not to be on an 08 or on that particular turn but he got a right telling off from the staff reps, especially from one of them, for being shown up by the management)

[stewartingram]

As posted on the other match wagon thread:

 

BWK8003/4 BR Conflat L – Mousa Models (mousa-models.co.uk)

 

Mousa models match wagon, also available =with 3x cement containers load.

[The Johnster]

IIRC a Chariot was still in use at Jersey Marine in the early 70s. The 'rerailing ramps' comment came from John Hodge and Stuart Davies' Tondu Valleys books, describing practice at Ogmore Juntion yard and describing the rerailing equipment as 'all important'.  I don't actually recall seeing it in use anywhere either as a spotter or as a guard, but it wouldn't have been particularly apparent unless there'd been an 'incident', so I wouldn't place any store by that.

 

The view forward from an 08 driving seat was a lot better than it looked from the outside, especially if the side window was open and could be leaned out of, and the veiw out of the rear not as good as it looked, as the seat was a couple of feet away from the larger rear cab windows and one could not see down to buffer beam level, a desirable feature in shunting.  On top of that, the twisted position the driver had to adopt and the poor ride which gave his spine a hammering made it preferable to shunt 'nose forward'.  The ride on an 08 was excellent, unless the engine was moving when things deteriorated very rapidly...

 

 

[br2975]

21 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 The point here is that in spite of 03s having steps and rails for shunters, the use of GW style shunter’s trucks persisted at least until this part of the diesel era, and even later no doubt in some locations (I think some locations were given in a previous thread). 

 As far as I'm aware, one of the last, if not the last, GWR / BR (WR) shunters truck in normal use, survived at Burry Port until circa 1980/1981.

.

The Burry Port pilot was invariably a Cl.03, 

.

At one time, the Burry Port pilot was a 'full fat Noddy' diagram, not a 'cut down Noddy' - even though the BPGV examples worked from Burry Port.

.

(Shunters traucks also survived in the Cardiff, Newtown, Tyndall Fields, Spike Sidings, Long Dyke complex until at least 1976 see the attached image of 08188, dated 1975) 

Edited April 7, 2022 by br2975

[br2975]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The ride on an 08 was excellent, unless the engine was moving when things deteriorated very rapidly...

Agreed,

Having driven and ridden several 08s along what passed for 'track' in Tidal Sidings, I can safely say that at any speed above walking pace they could provide more fear than any theme park white knuckle ride.

[rab]

Going off topic slightly, does anyone know if

there is a shunters truck available in N gauge please

[Steamport Southport]

46 minutes ago, rab said:

Going off topic slightly, does anyone know if

there is a shunters truck available in N gauge please

 

No idea on RTR but there's a kit by P&D Marsh.

 

https://www.pdmarshmodels.com/products/a503-2-gwr-shunters-truck?_pos=2&_sid=be992d365&_ss=r

 

I've still got one somewhere from the days I dabbled in N, bought to go with the old Grafar 94XX. Can't vouch for it's accuracy though.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, br2975 said:

Agreed,

Having driven and ridden several 08s along what passed for 'track' in Tidal Sidings, I can safely say that at any speed above walking pace they could provide more fear than any theme park white knuckle ride.

An old docks driver once told me that he knew when he was off the road in some of the darker corners (and, as you well know Brian, there are places down there that are blacker at night than the inside of a cow) because the ride improved...

Edited April 8, 2022 by The Johnster

[Halvarras]

Although admittedly not in BR service the two ECC-owned ex-Class 10 shunters D3452/76* at Fowey Docks had shunter's truck DW41799 for company until at least the middle of 1984, according to photographs. It had long since lost its tool box. The truck inevitably passed into preservation, it was in restored condition at the Glos-Warks Railway in 2010 with a reconstructed tool box but I'm not sure if it is still there. I understand the Class 10s were replaced by BR Class 08s in 1986 but I have no idea whether the truck was used with these before the CDAs arrived in early 1988.

 

*AFAIK the third one, D3497, was only ever used as a source of spares for these two.

[Tennessee Jones]

Can somebody tell me if the match truck that goes with the Hornby Ruston 48DS is available separately? I can't find it anywhere. 

All the best,

TJ.

[Wickham Green too]

Probably not available separately with pickups !

[Halvarras]

Depending on what you want to do with it.........Lendon's of Cardiff sell the wagon underframe with pick-ups fitted for £2.98 (plus 'Low postage' £2.50 p&p):

It's labelled 'Chassis "Vent Van" ' but I think this underframe, X7397, is from the 48DS match wagon and the weathered version, X7397W, is from the TTS sound-fitted (and weathered) ventilated van. I've just noticed that the pristine one above has four tabs projecting upwards and the dirty one has only two, in opposite corners, but with one pick-up strip per side this doesn't really matter. This one would require around 35mm less wire on one side!

 

With this you could create your own power-collecting match truck from any RTR 10' wagon with Airfix origins, and probably Dapol too with similar clip-fit bodies, including their cheap undecorated wagons, although I've found their wheelsets can be a little suspect. It doesn't have to be a conflat, the Class 03s at Bristol Bath Road and Laira ran with dedicated 5-plank wagons, although these locos were employed on local freight trips - for station pilot duties conflats must have been preferred for driver's visibility reasons.

 

This would avoid having to make and then adjust your own pick-ups, although ideally electrical connections would require a little soldering, as well as devising a way to connect the wagon to the loco - permanently-coupled being simplest of course. That central moulding boss will need removing if the donor wagon's ballast weight doesn't have a corresponding hole In it!

 

In case this suggestion is of interest.......🙂

[Tennessee Jones]

Yes great thanks to both of you for the replies! 

I'll write to Lendon's and see if I can get a couple of those chassis they look just the job.

All the best,

TJ.