Why did the GWR not have any hotels on its Northern line?

[OnTheBranchline]

I know it only had 4 (Devon, Cornwall, West Wales and London) but why didn’t it have one in say Birmingham or somewhere else. I assume it’s because the Northern line is not a holiday line so the GWR didn’t see the market for it?

[Michael Hodgson]

As I understand it, the Old Worse & Worse was an impecunious affair, so perhaps they couldn't afford to build posh hotels?

[Rivercider]

Did the GWR build any hotels?

We have stayed at the Tregenna Castle a couple of times. It pre-dates the GWR by quite some time (1774), the GWR leased it in 1878 and purchased it in 1895, greatly extending it at the time. It was 1928/29 when the GWR purchased the Manor Hotel in Devon,

 

cheers 

 

 

[MidlandRed]

2 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I know it only had 4 (Devon, Cornwall, West Wales and London) but why didn’t it have one in say Birmingham or somewhere else. I assume it’s because the Northern line is not a holiday line so the GWR didn’t see the market for it?

It did - The Great Western Hotel, in front of Snow Hill station on Colmore Row - one of the first parts of the station to be demolished after closure to through traffic. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

The Fishguard Bay Hotel was, I believe, built by the GW.

[Compound2632]

I'm surprised if the Great Western didn't have an hotel at or near each of its major stations, as most other lines did - the LNWR and Midland in particular were noted hotel operators; hotels were an integrated part of railway operation. They weren't necessarily or particularly for the holiday trade. On arrival at their destination, your passengers will be looking for someone to stay, so make that easy for them to your own profit.

 

As a random example, chosen because it's not far from where I live, here's the Great Western Hotel, Reading, just opposite the station:

 

 

[Embedded link.] It is thought to be the oldest surviving railway hotel, opened in 1844, possibly designed by Brunel himself; it currently goes by the name of Malmaison Hotel Reading.

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[ikcdab]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm surprised if the Great Western didn't have an hotel at or near each of its major stations, as most other lines did - the LNWR and Midland in particular were noted hotel operators; hotels were an integrated part of railway operation. They weren't necessarily or particularly for the holiday trade. On arrival at their destination, your passengers will be looking for someone to stay, so make that easy for them to your own profit.

 

As a random example, chosen because it's not far from where I live, here's the Great Western Hotel, Reading, just opposite the station:

 

 

[Embedded link.] It is thought to be the oldest surviving railway hotel, opened in 1844, possibly designed by Brunel himself; it currently goes by the name of Malmaison Hotel Reading.

 

 

Ditto the Great Western hotel in Taunton.  Recently renovated to a really good standard and to a similar design

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, OnTheBranchline said:

I know it only had 4 (Devon, Cornwall, West Wales and London) but why didn’t it have one in say Birmingham or somewhere else. I assume it’s because the Northern line is not a holiday line so the GWR didn’t see the market for it?

If being a holiday line was a reason to build hotels what about the Southern? They surely had as many stations at holiday resorts as any of them.

However, at nationalisation the GWR was operating 4, the SR just 2.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

If being a holiday line was a reason to build hotels

 

That, I think, is the misconception. Most railway hotels were aimed at the first class business passenger - hotels such as the Midland in Manchester or the Adelphi in Liverpool (the latter aimed also at transatlantic passengers), the Queens Hotel in Birmingham or the North-Western in Manchester; the Caledonian and North British Hotels in Edinburgh. 

 

By nationalisation, many railway hotels had already closed, often turned into railway offices - the most famous example being the Midland Grand Hotel, St Pancras, closed in 1935. They suffered from being early into the large hotel business and being designed for Victorian social conditions, being very heavy on manpower.  

Edited March 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That, I think, is the misconception. Most railway hotels were aimed at the first class business passenger - hotels such as the Midland in Manchester or the Adelphi in Liverpool (the latter aimed also at transatlantic passengers), the Queens Hotel in Birmingham or the North-Western in Manchester; the Caledonian and North British Hotels in Edinburgh.

Exactly.

There were some hotels in non business areas on the LMS (e.g. Morecambe, now nicely refurbished) and presumably also the LNER, but mainly business hot spots.

[Michael Hodgson]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

By nationalisation, many railway hotels had already closed, often turned into railway offices - the most famous example being the Midland Grand Hotel, St Pancras, closed in 1935. They suffered from being early into the large hotel business and being designed for Victorian social conditions, being very heavy on manpower.  

I was told the problem with the Midland Grand Hotel was that it was built with early Victorian sanitation and considered impractical to bring up to date - no water closets, just sluice rooms for the servants to empty chamberpots.  It presumably gained more modern plumbing for its use as railway offices however.

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

If being a holiday line was a reason to build hotels what about the Southern? They surely had as many stations at holiday resorts as any of them.

However, at nationalisation the GWR was operating 4, the SR just 2.

Newhaven had the London & Paris Hotel. I assume that it was a LBSCR establishment, as it was built between the station and the quayside, from which their ferries conveyed people to Dieppe. Did any of the other 'Southern' ports have the same? Southampton, Dover or Folkestone perhaps?

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That, I think, is the misconception. Most railway hotels were aimed at the first class business passenger - hotels such as the Midland in Manchester or the Adelphi in Liverpool (the latter aimed also at transatlantic passengers), the Queens Hotel in Birmingham or the North-Western in Manchester; the Caledonian and North British Hotels in Edinburgh. 

 

By nationalisation, many railway hotels had already closed, often turned into railway offices - the most famous example being the Midland Grand Hotel, St Pancras, closed in 1935. They suffered from being early into the large hotel business and being designed for Victorian social conditions, being very heavy on manpower.  

 

Liverpool also had the North Western Hotel next to Lime Street. Now being turned back into a hotel after a few years as student accommodation.

 

I think there was also hotel accommodation at Exchange as well (L&YR)

 

There was also the Midland and Central Hotels opposite Central Station. Both now pubs.

 

 

 

Ignore the 1675 date. No way is the building that old and I have no idea to what it refers to. I expect the 1887 one to be correct as Liverpool Central was opened in 1874.

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

I've found a Great Western Hotel in Birkenhead.

 

Not much detail I'm afraid. But it's about 100 yards or so from where Woodside was.

 

https://whatpub.com/pubs/WIR/539/great-western-hotel-birkenhead

 

Even closer to Monks Ferry Station which was the original Birkenhead station.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkenhead_Monks_Ferry_railway_station

 

 

Jason

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Liverpool also had the North Western Hotel next to Lime Street. Now being turned back into a hotel after a few years as student accommodation.

 

I think there was also hotel accommodation at Exchange as well (L&YR)

 

There was also the Midland and Central Hotels opposite Central Station. Both now pubs.

 

 

 

It was the LNWR's North Western Hotel in Liverpool I had in mind when I said Manchester...

 

I wonder if those two near Central were actually railway-owned, since

 

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I've found a Great Western Hotel in Birkenhead.

 

Not much detail I'm afraid. But it's about 100 yards or so from where Woodside was.

 

https://whatpub.com/pubs/WIR/539/great-western-hotel-birkenhead

 

 

appears not to have been. Just cashing in on the name?

 

The Midland Hotel was brewery-owned, it would appear: https://www.themidlandliverpool.co.uk/about/

[phil_sutters]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 Just cashing in on the name?

 

I expect that there are quite a few like that, especially those are or were basically pubs with accommodation. I don't think that the 'Somerset & Dorset Hotel' in Burnham was originally railway-owned.

[The Stationmaster]

In 1929 the GWR advertised as its owned hotels only 4 establishments - the Great Western Royal. at Paddington, the Manor House Hotel, the Tregenna Castle Hotel, and the Fishguard Bay Hotel.  Of these the Fishguard Bay Hotel is not listed as a railway owned hotel in the 1952 timetables.

 

There were a number of hotels with the Great Western name - immediately coming to mind are those in Reading, Swindon, Newport, and Exeter.   Whether they were or were not railway owned at some time I do not know.

[Oldddudders]

Don't forget the Welcombe in Stratford, converted from a country house by the LMS, and thus part of the former BT Hotels portfolio. I found it particularly welcoming not long before midnight on a night of record cold in December 1981, although the driver on overnight DEMU warming-up duty at the station had also invited me in for a warm. 

 

It helped that when I arrived, Deb, hosting a party of journos for the weekend, met me at the door, ushered me into a room with a roaring fire and ordered me food and drink!

 

Some railway references (SMJR) here https://www.thewelcombehills.co.uk/the-welcombe-hotel/

 

[C126]

10 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Did any of the other 'Southern' ports have the same? Southampton, Dover or Folkestone perhaps?

 

I know Southampton had an exquisite, baroque hotel, the 'Imperial', on the Eastern Docks side I think, as there is a stunning photo of it with a '74' rumbling past light in a book I have (by Colin Marsden?).  https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/77469598#/?channel=RES_BUY

 

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

Newhaven had the London & Paris Hotel. I assume that it was a LBSCR establishment, as it was built between the station and the quayside, from which their ferries conveyed people to Dieppe. Did any of the other 'Southern' ports have the same? Southampton, Dover or Folkestone perhaps?

I can't think of anything fitting the bill in Folkestone. Dover has a building in the middle of the former triangle on the approach to the Marine station. In latter years, it was headquarters for Sealink, and had a fully kitted out Radio Room, which served not only the Channel, but Harwich, the Channel Islands and Irish Sea.

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Dover has a building in the middle of the former triangle on the approach to the Marine station. In latter years, it was headquarters for Sealink, and had a fully kitted out Radio Room, which served not only the Channel, but Harwich, the Channel Islands and Irish Sea.

 

The Lord Warden Hotel, originally built by the South Eastern Railway. From what I can find online, it was operated by a succession of lessees rather than by a hotel department of the railway company. I suspect this may have been a common arrangement, accounting for the small number of BTH establishments in the WR and SR; only the big northern and Scottish railway companies had had the economies of scale to make running their hotels directly a viable proposition.

 

the Midland Railway had probably the largest Hotels Department. For many years it was managed by William Towle - a splendid example of nominative determinism!

[Fat Controller]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Lord Warden Hotel, originally built by the South Eastern Railway. From what I can find online, it was operated by a succession of lessees rather than by a hotel department of the railway company. I suspect this may have been a common arrangement, accounting for the small number of BTH establishments in the WR and SR; only the big northern and Scottish railway companies had had the economies of scale to make running their hotels directly a viable proposition.

 

the Midland Railway had probably the largest Hotels Department. For many years it was managed by William Towle - a splendid example of nominative determinism!

Didn't the Southern also have contractors providing train catering?

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was the LNWR's North Western Hotel in Liverpool I had in mind when I said Manchester...

 

I wonder if those two near Central were actually railway-owned, since

 

 

appears not to have been. Just cashing in on the name?

 

The Midland Hotel was brewery-owned, it would appear: https://www.themidlandliverpool.co.uk/about/

 

I would expect the rooms to be part of a deal between the railway company and pub owners. Possibly ran by MR staff.

 

 

If you look at the photo on that site with the horse bus, you can see the old Adelphi in the background. The current one is much later, about 1910.

 

Also notice the Princess on the pub sign, I don't think that's there anymore.

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

I can't think of anything fitting the bill in Folkestone. Dover has a building in the middle of the former triangle on the approach to the Marine station. In latter years, it was headquarters for Sealink, and had a fully kitted out Radio Room, which served not only the Channel, but Harwich, the Channel Islands and Irish Sea.

Snargate Radio. The telex/telegram address for Shipping & Continental/Sealink at Dover was SNARGATE DOVER. It was ironic that Dover was one of the last major towns in the UK to get an automatic telephone exchange - almost exactly 50 years ago. I almost lost count of the number of times that I had to dial 100 and ask the operator to connect me to Dover 800.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Didn't the Southern also have contractors providing train catering?

The Brighton, having the Pullman Car Co's workshops at Preston Park, certainly employed them. Indeed, even in the early '70s, a well-spoken sort of chap would ring Control in the early hours of each weekday, enquiring as to the location of each of his Bigs and BEPS. He still introduced himself as "The Pullman Car Company at Brighton"!