RMweb Premium Steven B Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) Were three wheeled vehicles allowed on the Carflats used for Motorail services? I'm thinking Reliant Robin/Regal in particular. Steven B. Edited January 13, 2022 by Steven B 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2022 A couple of thoughts spring to mind. Firstly, they obviously wouldn't have been able to be loaded on the end ramp and driven the full length of the train, but, some Motorail flats had removable side stanchions to allow the use of ramps to unload cars directly on to a platform where no end loading facility existed, so it could be technically possible for them to be so loaded. Secondly, as the vehicles weren't tied down. only chocked, I would imagine there would be a possibility of them shifting or even being blown off the wagon due to their lightness. The only way to find out the definitive answer is perusal of pictures to see if there is such a scenario, or perusal of Motorail operating instructions to see if there was regulation regarding them. Invacars were delivered from AC cars in Thames Ditton by 4 wheel carflats/low sided wagons, but these were roped down, so the possibility of an airborne 3 wheeler is known about I would imagine. Mike. Mike. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Invacars were delivered from AC cars in Thames Ditton by 4 wheel carflats/low sided wagons, but these were roped down, so the possibility of an airborne 3 wheeler is known about I would imagine. Well, sort of ...... https://drivemag.com/news/it-seems-that-the-three-wheel-reliant-robin-can-t-fly-either 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Invacars were delivered from AC cars in Thames Ditton by 4 wheel carflats/low sided wagons, but these were roped down, so the possibility of an airborne 3 wheeler is known about I would imagine. Slightly diverting the question, I wonder if anyone has evidence to support where the AC's were loaded? Hampton Court would have been geographically closer (one of the peripheral AC sites was on the old goods yard at Hampton Court) but I suspect Surbiton is more likely as it had a car loading ramp for the Oakhampton motorail service. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I don’t know about motorail but I do know the wind from an artic passing a Reliant Regal on the motorway is enough to blow it half onto the hard shoulder. This was in the days before lorries had speed limiters. I would imagine the blast from a train passing in the opposite direction could well lift it at least a little . I had one for a short time when I was 16 . On those days you could drive them at 16 because they were a motor tricycle and not a motor car. In order to achieve that classification they were designed to be very light. As a weedy 16 year old I was able to lift the car up enough for someone else to change a rear wheel without the aid of a jack. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Chris M said: As a weedy 16 year old I was able to lift the car up enough for someone else to change a rear wheel without the aid of a jack. Around 1960 one of our neighbours had a Bond 3-wheeler. After a snowstorm it was stranded in a garage at the side of the house. The road was relatively clear so he and my dad carried it over the snowdrift to get it out so they could get to work. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2022 31 minutes ago, jonhall said: Slightly diverting the question, I wonder if anyone has evidence to support where the AC's were loaded? Hampton Court would have been geographically closer (one of the peripheral AC sites was on the old goods yard at Hampton Court) but I suspect Surbiton is more likely as it had a car loading ramp for the Oakhampton motorail service. Jon Based on no prototypical evidence whatsoever, but I wouldn't have thought that there would be a need for a special end loading ramp, Invacars weigh only 900 lbs and can be lifted by 2 people, so a lightweight crane of some variety would easily load one, and the few pictures I've seen of wagons loaded with Invacars are low or 1 plank wagons, so not necessarily requisite of drive on loading. Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I'll take the point, but unless the crane was rigged pretty carefully, it would be pretty easy to damage a fibreglass body lifting it on that way. I don't recall what craneage was available at Hampton Court. Jon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, jonhall said: I'll take the point, but unless the crane was rigged pretty carefully, it would be pretty easy to damage a fibreglass body lifting it on that way. I don't recall what craneage was available at Hampton Court. Jon Perhaps, just a wild guess/surmise, it was carried on a fork lift truck of some variety with the underside chocked on wooden spacers, hovered over the wagon from platform/loading bay level, and then lifted off by 2 men, kind of Wickham trolley fashion? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Wouldn't they have slung them into a GUV? Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 13, 2022 24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Wouldn't they have slung them into a GUV? Jason The only pictures I've seen are of them loaded on to open wagons, I'm assuming it was for delivery to a single end user, a GUV would intimate bulk deliveries? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said: After a snowstorm it was stranded in a garage at the side of the house. The road was relatively clear so he and my dad carried it over the snowdrift to get it out so they could get to work. One of the other potential downsides to a 3-wheeler is in snowy conditions - if the other traffic has cleared two tracks but there's still a mound of snow/ice in the centre! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chris116 Posted January 13, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 hour ago, keefer said: One of the other potential downsides to a 3-wheeler is in snowy conditions - if the other traffic has cleared two tracks but there's still a mound of snow/ice in the centre! I used to drive a Reliant Robin. Actually I had two over an eight year period. Three winters we had snow and yes it was great fun with the mound of snow and two clear tracks. You got used to driving with the nose pointed at the pavement and the steering wheel pointing towards the other cleared track. Quick reactions were needed when the front wheel jumped into the other cleared track so that you didn't hit anything going the other way. The other fun was beating 3 litre Capri boy racers with blonde eye candy in the passenger seat away from traffic lights due to boy racer paying more attention to where the blondes skirt was and missing 2nd gear. For some reason they never seemed too pleased with the blonde when they started laughing. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said: The only pictures I've seen are of them loaded on to open wagons, I'm assuming it was for delivery to a single end user, a GUV would intimate bulk deliveries? Mike. The OP says Motorail services. I'm taking it as meaning someone travelling by Motorail trains which had GUVs (I believe 4 wheeled CCTs were banned from passenger services). The reason for them not being seen is they would be in the GUV, if they didn't have one they would have got one. Jason Edited January 13, 2022 by Steamport Southport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 14, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said: I'm taking it as meaning someone travelling by Motorail trains which had GUVs (I believe 4 wheeled CCTs were banned from passenger services). The ban was actually on 4 wheel vehicles less than 15ft WB on certain trains usually denoted by a spade symbol in the WTT, later extended to 18ft WB. It was still possible to find vanfits as tail traffic on secondary passenger trains until they became restricted to 45mph. I believe the ban on 4 and 6 wheel vehicles may have applied only to Passenger Carrying vehicles not NPCSS. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 14, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2022 i think it was more a ban on 4- or 6-wheel goods vehicles rather than NPCCS. there wouldn't have been any such passenger-carrying stock by Motorail times. i.e. certain CCT, B,BG etc of 4- or 6-wheel layout lasted as they were passenger-rated. The real restriction was on, as you mention 4- or 6-whl vans, which tended to have a shorter wheelbase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris M Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: The OP says Motorail services. I'm taking it as meaning someone travelling by Motorail trains which had GUVs (I believe 4 wheeled CCTs were banned from passenger services). The reason for them not being seen is they would be in the GUV, if they didn't have one they would have got one. Jason So far as am aware there was no mixing of wagon types on Motorail services. I know it differed on various routes but all the services I saw used the flat wagons only; there would not have been the possibility of adding a GUV to the train, especially just for one car. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 14 hours ago, Chris M said: ...... enough to blow it half onto the hard shoulder. This was in the days before lorries had speed limiters. ...... ,,,,,,,, and back in the days when motorways had hard shoulders, of course ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastairq Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said: ,,,,,,,, and back in the days when motorways had hard shoulders, of course ! What's a 'motorway?' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 5 hours ago, Chris M said: So far as am aware there was no mixing of wagon types on Motorail services. I know it differed on various routes but all the services I saw used the flat wagons only; there would not have been the possibility of adding a GUV to the train, especially just for one car. Apart from the GUVs branded inter City Motorail I assume.... Also a GUV here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 1 hour ago, alastairq said: What's a 'motorway?' Are you from Norfolk? https://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/norfolk-motorway/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 18 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Apart from the GUVs branded inter City Motorail I assume.... Also a GUV here. Both Carmarthen and Swansea Motorail services used a single GUV, attached to a Swansea > Paddington service train Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted January 14, 2022 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2022 The Rail Express Modeller feature on Motorail trains listed a couple of formations that included carflats and GUV running in the same train. It looks like a 3 wheeler is an unlikely load so Vyvyan and Harry Potter's Anglia and Mr Bean's Mini will have to be joined by a Del Boy Capri instead! Anyone know where I can get a 1:148/1:160 1982 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am or GMC Vandura? Steven B. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2022 12 hours ago, keefer said: i think it was more a ban on 4- or 6-wheel goods vehicles rather than NPCCS. there wouldn't have been any such passenger-carrying stock by Motorail times. i.e. certain CCT, B,BG etc of 4- or 6-wheel layout lasted as they were passenger-rated. The real restriction was on, as you mention 4- or 6-whl vans, which tended to have a shorter wheelbase. Non-bogie NPCCS was subject to the wheelbase restrictions with special limits applied (gradually increasing in severity) to milk tanks. Similarly the 'spade' WTT restrictions applied to all types of vehicle including NPCCS. Restrictions as they stood in the 1966 -67 WTT (note the symbols were as they appear on playing cards) - Two Spade - Four wheeled vehicles must NOT be conveyed on this train. One Spade - Four wheeled vehicles with wheelbase less than 15 feet must NOT be conveyed on this train. One Club - If conveying any four wheeled vehicle of 10 feet wheelbase or less, the Guard must instruct the Driver NOT to exceed a maximum speed of 50 m.p.h. As far as the Ministry of Health was concerned it had an Agreed Flat Rate contract with BR for the movement by freight train of invalid cars (such as those manufactured by AC) and adapted ordinary cars and any vehicles despatched in accordance with that contract would be loaded to freight vehicles (usually Lowfits). This included distribution from the manufacturers and any subsequent movement provided it was on the MoH account. I remember that back in early 1967 we had an adapted Morris Minor sent from Reading to somewhere in the north of Scotland. When the lady who drove it initially inquired about the cost she went away but subsequently came back saying that she had been told by the MoH that it could be charged to their account (which not only saved her money but cost considerably less than the normal rate). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 14, 2022 Share Posted January 14, 2022 2 hours ago, Steven B said: The Rail Express Modeller feature on Motorail trains listed a couple of formations that included carflats and GUV running in the same train. It looks like a 3 wheeler is an unlikely load so Vyvyan and Harry Potter's Anglia and Mr Bean's Mini will have to be joined by a Del Boy Capri instead! Anyone know where I can get a 1:148/1:160 1982 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am or GMC Vandura? Steven B. If it's for something fun, how about slinging one on an Airfix/etc Lowmac? Suitably secured of course. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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