Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[sjp23480]

Stand by your beds, TW is on the case....

 

Edited June 4 by sjp23480

[zr2498]

15 minutes ago, sjp23480 said:

Stand by your beds, TW is on the case....

 

I see one lamp was removed. I wonder how he got on with that?

 

[Woowooo437]

daltonparva. I'm saying the 21 pin conector in the 8F requires you to solder speaker wires to the decoder or the little board the decoder fits onto. It's a pain. Unless you have a Hornby 21 pin decoder. 

 

I'm asking if someone can tell me if the Black 5 is like this to. 

Edited June 4 by Woowooo437

[TheSignalEngineer]

On the subject of lamps I managed to recover about six hours of video from some old tapes last year. This was the first edit of some of 46203 in 1990. 

The first sequence at Rookwood Road, Acocks Green is taken with the camera about 35-40 feet above rail level or six inches in 00 gauge terms. I am 140 feet (22 inches in 00) away from the signal.

For the second sequence at Dorridge I was about 70 feet (11 inches in 00) from the loco. Look how tiny the lamps appear. I couldn't tell if they were lit or not. The passing Class 150 shows how visible the DMU lights of the time were in daylight.

The Tyseley sequences are a bit burnt out as I it was my first experiment with night shots using that camera. The purpose here is to demonstrate the difference between the DMU and steam loco lamps. The left hand lamp on 46203 is hardly visible from the angle here. I'm about 100 feet from the signal visible over the near track. As the train passes the visibility of the modern tail lamp can be seen.

I left in the sequence at Duddeston Mill Road as it demonstrated how little light you could see from MK1 carriages with tungsten bulbs as opposed to those fluorescent tubes

 

Edited June 5 by TheSignalEngineer

[daltonparva]

6 minutes ago, Woowooo437 said:

daltonparva. I'm saying the 21 pin conector in the 8F requires you to solder speaker wires to the decoder or the little board the decoder fits onto. It's a pain. Unless you have a Hornby 21 pin decoder. 

 

I'm asking if someone can tell me if the Black 5 is like this to. 

Hiya.

No, the Black 5 has the speaker tabs that you can solder to as I said previously. I'd be interested in a pic of the 8F 21-pin, I was thinking of getting one but the cost and the moulded smokebox dart put me off so I've just bought another 8-pin one for £100 plus p+p.

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, franciswilliamwebb said:

 

Or a Beatles one 😉

 

Possibly even a Dave Clark "Five"😳

Or with express headcode it could be the Frantic Five. Modelu will add Don Lang to front it. (You need to be as old as me to get that one)

For those slightly younger they could do a Jackson Five. 

[AY Mod]

A portion of the market may not have bought them if the lamps were to scale in size and brightness terms as they'd have thought the features weren't prominent/worth it.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, zr2498 said:

I see one lamp was removed. I wonder how he got on with that?

 

 

not only removed the lamp, but fitted the iron too.

 

That picture doesnt half capture the shape of a real black 5 very well, it just needs a steam leak here and there.

 

 

[Buhar]

@TheSignalEngineer Thanks for that.  I also saw no sign of a flickering fire either.

 

Alan

[TheSignalEngineer]

35 minutes ago, Buhar said:

I also saw no sign of a flickering fire either.

No smoke either, just a wisp of steam from the safety valves. Coasting slightly downhill from Olton Mere towards Bordesley. Fire would have been tidied up at the Dorridge water stop after climbing Hatton Bank, ready for the crew change at Landor Street.

Edited June 4 by TheSignalEngineer

[phil-b259]

On 02/06/2024 at 20:33, Phil Parker said:

 

You only have to look in any diesel loco thread to know how popular, arguably essential, a full set of working lights are. There are demands for perfectly good models to be retooled to include them. Why shouldn't this also apply to steam engine fans? After all, Hornby have to persuade people to upgrade from a Black 5 that was lauded by MRJ when it came out.

 

Because the lamps fitted to diesels don't move about!

 

Lamps fitted to diesel locos are generally built into the body structure and can therefore be of the correct scale plus obviously can also be turned off by simple adjustment of CV values (assuming the internal wiring and decode are up to it) rather than needing to be physically removed.

 

The lamps fitted to UK steam locos by contrast must be capable of being removed completely and bare lamp brackets be visible - to do that the lamps have to be over scale and even when they are removed its quite likely they will leave visible gaps around the the socket in the running plate.

 

Given (1) it was pretty much impossible to tell if traditional oil lamps (as carried by steam locos) were lit during the day and (2) even at night produced an extremely feeble light output modellers are far better served by having non working properly scaled lamps adorn their steam loco fleet than Hornbys latest gimmick.

 

Perhaps folk need reminding that 'New' doesn't always = 'Better'.....

Edited June 5 by phil-b259

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Even bright colour light signals are only visible from roughly head on - they are tightly focussed because they only need to be seen by the train crew. 

Light spread on GRS lenses was so focussed that 3 or 4 degrees off the axis the light intensity reduced by 50%. Where a wider beam was needed such as on tight curves or loop exits then 15 degree spreadlight lenses were used. The shape of the lens reduced the intensity of the beam so also reduced the range

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Because the lamps fitted to diesels don't move about!

 

tail lamps do.

 

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Lamps fitted to diesel locos are generally built into the body structure and can therefore be of the correct scale plus obviously can also be turned off by simple adjustment of CV values (assuming the internal wiring and decode are up to it) rather than needing to be physically removed.

 

mobile lamps on diesels invariably look odd, because people generally aren't used to them being there, despite exceptions. Limas class 52 was always criticised because of that moulded oil lamp, despite several pictures showing it used to happen.

 

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The lamps fitted to UK steam locos by contrast must be capable of being removed completely and bare lamp brackets be visible - to do that the lamps have to be over scale and even when they are removed its quite likely they will leave visible gaps around the the socket in the running plate.

 

on the Hornby Black 5 they are removable. The model comes with extra lamps, and lamp irons in the bag.

I did show above, they dont need to be overscale either, as seen by Bachmanns mk2f.

 

>> The overscale lamp is what I feel is the real issue.

 

Which is why I find this debate amusing.

What I am suspecting the real issue is reluctance, to either do some basic modelling or accepting innovation, and instead are venting, and some don't seem to display any level of purchase commitment.

 

I will agree the lamps are overscale, but the photo above is an example in Tony Writes picture where by the buyer has removed a lamp, and fitted a lamp iron from the parts bag as the model allows, and as pages of hot air posts are demanding… shows that wouldbe buyers have their wish already.

 

 

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Given (1) it was pretty much impossible to tell if traditional oil lamps (as carried by steam locos) were lit during the day and even at night produced an extremely feeble light output modellers are far better served by having non working properly scaled lamps adorn their steam loco fleet than Hornbys latest gimmick.

 

so the option exists with this mode to simply remove them, leave them in the parts bag, fit lamp irons or stick with 40 year old springsides… 

 

thats the part many are missing, you have the option, to have lights, or not to have lights…

 

for some reason several are complaining about having an optional extra, which is an optional… dont like it, get a tool out and remove it.

 

I thought we were modellers, removing a removable lamp surely isnt that hard ?

 

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Perhaps folk need reminding that 'New' doesn't always = 'Better'.....

its worth pointing out that carriage lights often arent lit during the day either, but no ones demanding they be removed. How many have diesels running round the layout with drivers cabs lit ? Some aspects of the hobby people like, even if unrealistic.

 

An after market oppourtunity exists for better working oil lamps using the same fitting mechanism… a 3D printed lamp, with a 1mm hole for a piece of clear plastic rod through the lens and acting as a light track, either underneath, or through the back.

Edited June 5 by adb968008

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, zr2498 said:

I see one lamp was removed. I wonder how he got on with that?

 

Good morning Dave,

 

With difficulty!

 

On another point, despite its superb running qualities (quiet and silky smooth stopping/starting), the train its hauling (six metal kits) was an absolute maximum, though it took more in the way of plastic RTR carriages (with one kit-build in the rake). 

 

 

 

 

As for its 'looks' and livery-application - among the best I've ever seen (the replacement lamp bracket on the front platform has yet to be fitted).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[ColinB]

10 hours ago, Woowooo437 said:

daltonparva. I'm saying the 21 pin conector in the 8F requires you to solder speaker wires to the decoder or the little board the decoder fits onto. It's a pain. Unless you have a Hornby 21 pin decoder. 

 

I'm asking if someone can tell me if the Black 5 is like this to. 

Generally when I buy a sound decoder with a speaker it is soldered onto the sound decoder. If it is a HM7000 it comes with a speaker lead that plugs in. If anything the 21 pin is the easier connector as you can permanently wire the speaker to the loco. In my case I usually unsolder the connections to the decoder and reattach them to the 21 pin PCB. So I cannot see your issue.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I think we can all agree (pauses for opposite views...) that working lamps are a gimmick on a steam engine. Hornby (and earlier Tri-ang) have "form" for gimmicks since the 60s. In their eyes it adds value; so very good from their viewpoint. In modeller's eyes somewhat different. I'm not talking about collectors here, as they'll buy whatever.

 

Nothing wrong with a gimmick if:

1.  It's effective

2. There's an option not to have it
 

The model looks superb.

The finish is very well executed.

Seems to run smoothly (caveat with some examples having iffy tender connections).

Pulling power - the jury is still out, but good enough for most of us.

All Hornby needs to do to make this the "ultimate Black Five" is to:
1. Improve the design of loco/tender connection into something more robust, with the ability to have a much closer coupling between the two

2. Provide a "non-lights" option

3. Oh, and do something about their quality control...

Edited June 5 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Dave,

 

With difficulty!

 

On another point, despite its superb running qualities (quiet and silky smooth stopping/starting), the train its hauling (six metal kits) was an absolute maximum, though it took more in the way of plastic RTR carriages (with one kit-build in the rake). 

 

 

 

 

As for its 'looks' and livery-application - among the best I've ever seen (the replacement lamp bracket on the front platform has yet to be fitted).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony for this. Your findings on the haulage capacity are much in line with my experience with the Caprotti version: viz it would not move a rake of 5 early release Bachmann MK 1 but now happily moves 4 Bachmann Thompsons +3 Bachmann Portholes,all of fairly recent issue.

 Yesterday a forum member raised the matter of lack of lining on the cylinders of 45157.Is this correct for this individual locomotive or is it a design error ? Regards,Ian.

 

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I did show above, they dont need to be overscale either, as seen by Bachmanns mk2f.

 

That, I suspect, is what everyone was hoping for when all the "lamps are a bit big" comments were made earlier in the thread. Of course by then the design was too far advanced to change it, hence all the complaints.

 

The can clearly be done, and to a decent standard. Just not on the Hornby Black 5.  

[MikeParkin65]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Dave,

 

With difficulty!

 

On another point, despite its superb running qualities (quiet and silky smooth stopping/starting), the train its hauling (six metal kits) was an absolute maximum, though it took more in the way of plastic RTR carriages (with one kit-build in the rake). 

 

 

 

 

As for its 'looks' and livery-application - among the best I've ever seen (the replacement lamp bracket on the front platform has yet to be fitted).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Morning @Tony Wright - how does the haulage capacity compare with the Hornby 2mt which also visited LB - the latter has a diecast boiler whereas for the class 5 I believe only the running boards are diecast, the rest is plastic. I did try searching for the answer on both the Hornby thread and WW but to no avail. Might be you didn't mention it of course. 

[Dunsignalling]

Only two posts so far regarding removing the lights, one where the lamp came apart, and the other from an expert modeller who encountered "difficulty", so not promising!

 

I've concluded that if there's room to install inserts carrying overscale lamps, there'll be enough for some the right size. So I'll wait for Hornby to do them properly on a future release, or a third party supplier to offer 3D printed replacements. 

 

 

Edited June 5 by Dunsignalling

[Ian Hargrave]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Only two posts so far regarding removing the lights, one where the lamp came apart, and the other from an expert modeller who encountered "difficulty", so not promising!

 

I've concluded that if there's room to install inserts carrying overscale lamps, there'll be enough for some the right size. So I'll wait for Hornby to di them properly on a future release, or a third party supplier to offer 3D printed replacements. 

 

 

But you may still be left with over bright,glaring LED. Hardly representative of a Black 5…unless it’s a WCRC version of course 

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

But you may still be left with over bright,glaring LED. Hardly representative of a Black 5…unless it’s a WCRC version of course 

 

Nothing a dab of thinned black paint can't tone down...

 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Morning @Tony Wright - how does the haulage capacity compare with the Hornby 2mt which also visited LB - the latter has a diecast boiler whereas for the class 5 I believe only the running boards are diecast, the rest is plastic. I did try searching for the answer on both the Hornby thread and WW but to no avail. Might be you didn't mention it of course. 

Good afternoon Mike,

 

Though I didn't do an exact comparison, the 78XXX was able to haul more than the new Black Five (just using different trains). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks Tony for this. Your findings on the haulage capacity are much in line with my experience with the Caprotti version: viz it would not move a rake of 5 early release Bachmann MK 1 but now happily moves 4 Bachmann Thompsons +3 Bachmann Portholes,all of fairly recent issue.

 Yesterday a forum member raised the matter of lack of lining on the cylinders of 45157.Is this correct for this individual locomotive or is it a design error ? Regards,Ian.

 

Good afternoon Ian,

 

In answer to your question, I'm not sure. The model in question represents the three year period from 1959 (when it received AWS) until 1962 (when it was withdrawn). The B&W shot in Irwell's Book of doesn't show any lining (very few in the books show red lining on the cylinders, but that doesn't mean it isn't there), so I don't know. Certainly, at one time, lining on the Black Fives' cylinders would have been on Crewe's painting spec', I would think. 

 

On another point, and I've not noted this being mentioned, many ex-LMS locos carried black lamps, not white (or both!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

...how does the haulage capacity compare with the Hornby 2mt which also visited LB - the latter has a diecast boiler whereas for the class 5 I believe only the running boards are diecast, the rest is plastic..l.

'Tis a little tiresome, considering that Hornby have the required technique demonstrated on their B12/3 4-6-0 with its largely diecast bodywork, which pulls better than all previous RTR OO 4-6-0 types I have had to play with. Having installed shaped lead to improve the traction of RTR B1 and B17 models - among others - the better way is clear.

 

Also working over the tender to reduce typical Hornby draginess: the combination of excessive weight, and the high friction wipers and axle 'bearings'; the first two of these are only required to get their models through their dreadful settrack points. It is most instructive to test a Hornby tender loco without the tender attached to assess the effect of these thieves of traction.

 

Happily for Hornby it does look good, waited a long time for a fine version of this somewhat significant class.