Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[Johan DC]

6 hours ago, ikcdab said:

All this new innovation, lamps, synchronised smoke, wheel squeel etc....

 

Yet still no locomotive crews!  Such a simple and cheap thing to fit, yet the overwhelming majority of RTR engines run around with ghost drivers....

Hornby put them in their latest loco's. 9F, P2, Dunlop A1 all Came with crew.

And I seem to be a minority (of 1) but I like lamp fitted loco's. Of course, I grew up with my dad's LGB trains in the garden, so I might be a little biased. 

Now, on the other hand, thanks to this very forum, I learned the meaning of the headcodes, so if a goods engine can't have changeble lamps, I don't want them. But changeble, or for an express Loco in correct formation, why not? 

But I promise, if Hornby ever would ask me, if I want them, I'll refer to this topic, and say please God no! 

 

😁

[jjb1970]

Personally I am not interested in most of the functions which have followed DCC. I find sound unconvincing, smoke effects still less convincing and features like pantograph uptown and flickering smoke boxes gimmicky. I find they detract from realism by breaking the visual immersion. I find visual immersion and allowing imagination to fill in other stuff is much more effective. 

[Wheatley]

On 25/11/2023 at 20:06, adb968008 said:

One more I had on my phone..

 

 

Yuck ! Thanks for the pic though !

 

On 25/11/2023 at 14:40, Mad McCann said:

Meantime, other routes still exist to create your optimum Black Five. I have a tranche of three Perth girls on the go at the moment. Here you see 44797 (front) and 44997 taking shape.

'997 has just had the tender axleboxes chewed off along with the odd coaming under the tender base.

A Comet part welded tender to awaits.

44998 is hiding behind the pile of crap because she is a bit shy for now.

I wanted to do Ferryhill's 44703 too but I need the long wheelbase chassis for that!

 

Cut to the chase; if you don't mind the journey, the old Hornby version still rewards the work.

 

Davy.

 

Likewise, I've a few to do which will keep me going until the Accurascale one comes out :-)

 

The lamps wouldn't have been a deal breaker at a couple of years ago's prices, I've got a pair of side cutters and some black paint. But at 200 quid for the cheap version I can wait until Hattons are flogging off their overstocks. 

 

[Midland Mole]

8 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

The lamps wouldn't have been a deal breaker at a couple of years ago's prices, I've got a pair of side cutters and some black paint. But at 200 quid for the cheap version I can wait until Hattons are flogging off their overstocks.

 

Exactly! And this is my argument against people who say "stop complaining and fix it yourself".

I've got no problem trying to do some modelling to fix a design issue on a cheaper or older locomotive, but not a brand new high detail £200+ model.

That is a lot of money to potentially throw down the toilet.

[adb968008]

Just a random thought, showing my age…

 

But I remember reading pages of correspondence bemoaning holes in bufferbeams back in the 1980’s when Hornby started making separately fitted vacuum pipes and complaining how it spoilt the appearance of the model for collectors and modellers that wanted the pristine models who’s experience it spoiled.

 

Certainly in the 1980’s there was much less models weathered than there is today, even kit builders tended towards pristine condition (you see them that way on ebay today).

 

Hornby had made separately fitted lamps for years, I recall fitting them to the M7 30111 30+ years ago, it had an opening smokebox door then too… the Triang one even older did also, but neither had lamp irons !

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

13 minutes ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

Exactly! And this is my argument against people who say "stop complaining and fix it yourself".

I've got no problem trying to do some modelling to fix a design issue on a cheaper or older locomotive, but not a brand new high detail £200+ model.

That is a lot of money to potentially throw down the toilet.

 

What I really struggle with is people who provide the same response when new models are actually defective, not running, or poor running, bits falling off etc. My own preference is to just return stuff if there are any defects, keeping in mind if you try fixing it yourself and botch it you've probably just invalidated the warranty. In my current circumstances that's a reason I'm reluctant to buy models from the UK as it is probably £30-40 to send a defective example back if the dealer decides their warranty responsibility doesn't stretch to international shipping from Asia to the UK for the return (and I can understand the reason, it wipes out their profit). There's a large etailer which many love to hate but I buy Kato, Tomix etc from their local SG and also JP sites and if their are any issues I print off a shipping label and send it back, no questions or quibbling.

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Also not forgetting the sprung buffers and screwed not clipped base keeper plate bring higher value !!!

 

 

Seriously though, as has been previously said - yes, European locos had lights but these were gnerally powered by steam turbo generators, controlled from the cab ands sometime had high beam and reduced beam.  UK steam locos generally carried paraffin oil lamps, but fundamentally, iot was the position and configuration of the lamps on the various lamp irons which indicated what the train was.  The Brits innovated in that respect but it was as important not to place lamps on particular lamp irons for this exact reason. Additionally though, and I don't know the answer to this, say a light locomotive came off Derby Four shed to run light to St Marys to work some empties up to Denby or wherever, what lamp code would the fireman have set prior to leaving the shed ?      

Light engine workings had a specific lamp code where the train classification system was used.

 

Where route indication applied, there would be a dedicated code, e.g. light engines between Exmouth Junction MPD and Exeter Central carried one which differed from those used for main line and Exmouth branch train movements over the same stretch of line.

 

John 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

And CONSUMERS* who want such things!

 

Folk on this forum have a tendency to forget that prototypical railway modellers are only a small part of a much wider consumer spectrum - and in fact I would wager that there are far more 'couldn't care less about accuracy' customers within the hobby as a whole.

 

Given the reasons model railway manufacturers exists is to make profits for their owners / shareholders if the addition of bright lights was disliked by consumers then said marketing execs would rapidly find themselves replaced due to slow sales. The fact that light / sound is being pushed ever harder says the reverse is true 

 

*The target audience for a certain online reviewer whose name begins with S being typical of people who love their locos festooned with bright lights regardless of how prototypical it is.

All true, but there's not much to be gained from doing something to please one section of the market while simultaneously turning others off. Silent majorities are generally so because they don't care enough either way to make their feelings known.

 

Turbomotive, and the Black Fives displayed at Warley have clearly involved great care and effort to produce the most authentic and convincing appearance possible. Only for the impression to be ruined by adding a feature that resembles neither scale appearance or prototypical function.  

 

If Hornby won't wait until they can do steam loco lighting commensurate with the quality of the locos to which it is fitted, they should confine it to their toy (Railroad) range. 

 

John

Edited November 27, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[No Decorum]

20 hours ago, ikcdab said:

All this new innovation, lamps, synchronised smoke, wheel squeel etc....

 

Yet still no locomotive crews!  Such a simple and cheap thing to fit, yet the overwhelming majority of RTR engines run around with ghost drivers....

A firebox glow does rather show up the lack of a crew.

[Ventnor]

On 26/11/2023 at 00:26, adb968008 said:

Some very nice finished samples here today.

 

i’m reassured they are looking into the headlamps. It’s a dilemma as there’s an led under each lamp, and 1/4mm of space, so gluing them in vs self fit.

 

but they do understand the desire to not be all royal train lamps, however they are also imminent … 

 

Whether they are, or are not going to fit the Royal Train headcode, just get rid of all of the lamps and have a few "fit your own" in the accessory bag. You really can't unsee this!! Why Hornby......WHY??

[phil-b259]

22 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

All true, but there's not much to be gained from doing something to please one section of the market while simultaneously turning others off.

 

Yes there is if the section of the market you are trying to woo is larger than the section of the market you turn away!

 

This happens in all walks of life - for example banks have no qualms shutting branches even though they might lose some custom precisely because that custom generally doesn’t bring them that much by way of profits.

 

I repeat, Hornby exists to make money for their shareholders - which means chasing the areas which will bring them the largest return in revenue terms and if that means they lose some revenue at the other end of the scale it can still make perfect economic sense to go down that path.

 

Besides the number who will actively boycott the black 5 with lights completely is going to be smaller than the section which will moan but will still buy it (subject to the right price / variant coming along) and sort out what they don’t like themselves.

 

I would put myself in that latter bracket - I agree the lamps are over sale, bound to be over bright in terms of Lumins but if the locomotive was one really wanted to add to my collection in all other respects then Hornby would get my money….

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, Ventnor said:

Whether they are, or are not going to fit the Royal Train headcode, just get rid of all of the lamps and have a few "fit your own" in the accessory bag. You really can't unsee this!! Why Hornby......WHY??

Because a large and growing sector of the hobby (with a bias towards them being new entrants to the hobby and thus a group worthy of nurturing from a financial perspective) want lots of bells and whistles! With diesel locos today featuring extensive lighting packages (many of which feature over bright lights) it is a natural progression in a lot of people’s eyes for steam to do the same.

[phil-b259]

On 27/11/2023 at 04:30, Johan DC said:

Hornby put them in their latest loco's. 9F, P2, Dunlop A1 all Came with crew.

And I seem to be a minority (of 1) but I like lamp fitted loco's. Of course, I grew up with my dad's LGB trains in the garden, so I might be a little biased. 

Now, on the other hand, thanks to this very forum, I learned the meaning of the headcodes, so if a goods engine can't have changeble lamps, I don't want them. But changeble, or for an express Loco in correct formation, why not? 

But I promise, if Hornby ever would ask me, if I want them, I'll refer to this topic, and say please God no! 

 

😁

There is no shame in liking what Hornby are doing.

 

 RMweb members do tend to be, how shall we say, quite conservative and more concerned about prototypical accuracy / fidelity than the hobby at large due to their greater knowledge of real railways. Nothing wrong with that of course but it can sometimes blind us to trends within the hobby as a whole.

[spamcan61]

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

There is no shame in liking what Hornby are doing.

 

 RMweb members do tend to be, how shall we say, quite conservative and more concerned about prototypical accuracy / fidelity than the hobby at large due to their greater knowledge of real railways. Nothing wrong with that of course but it can sometimes blind us to trends within the hobby as a whole.

Some RMweb members! 

 

Agree with your basic point but I would say RMWeb is a broad church once you get beyond the prolific posters 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by spamcan61

[Dunsignalling]

48 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Yes there is if the section of the market you are trying to woo is larger than the section of the market you turn away!

 

This happens in all walks of life - for example banks have no qualms shutting branches even though they might lose some custom precisely because that custom generally doesn’t bring them that much by way of profits.

 

I repeat, Hornby exists to make money for their shareholders - which means chasing the areas which will bring them the largest return in revenue terms and if that means they lose some revenue at the other end of the scale it can still make perfect economic sense to go down that path.

 

Besides the number who will actively boycott the black 5 with lights completely is going to be smaller than the section which will moan but will still buy it (subject to the right price / variant coming along) and sort out what they don’t like themselves.

 

I would put myself in that latter bracket - I agree the lamps are over sale, bound to be over bright in terms of Lumins but if the locomotive was one really wanted to add to my collection in all other respects then Hornby would get my money….

Perhaps, but gimmicks done well are one thing; done badly, they are an altogether different matter.

 

Hornby is clearly jumping the gun with this feature and (not for the first time) rushing out a half-developed product because they fear someone else will beat them to it.

 

In my own case, I'm  (reluctantly) prepared to chop the Caprotti one about, because the rest of it looks superb, and I consider it's still the most cost-effective way for me to acquire that variant. If it affects the resale value after I've gone, tough, but If I do a decent job of removing the excrescences, somebody will want it! 

 

However, I now won't bother with the two "normal" ones I had intended to buy, as I don't want to be saddled with three lots of hacking to do and have decided to detail up my old ones instead.

 

So that's two out of three sales Hornby will need to replace elsewhere and, talking to friends, I'm by no means the only one cutting back pre-orders, or intending to if this feature isn't deleted, or satisfactorily amended,  ahead of release.    

 

John

Edited November 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[SteveM666]

I am interested to see how these lights (regardless of scale) actually work. Can anyone confirm the ‘mechanics’ of the system or is it just a case of waiting?

[Wheatley]

45 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Because a large and growing sector of the hobby (with a bias towards them being new entrants to the hobby and thus a group worthy of nurturing from a financial perspective) want lots of bells and whistles! With diesel locos today featuring extensive lighting packages (many of which feature over bright lights) it is a natural progression in a lot of people’s eyes for steam to do the same.

 

I look forward to Accurascale's re-run of the Syphon G complete with ducking giraffe. 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, SteveM666 said:

I am interested to see how these lights (regardless of scale) actually work. Can anyone confirm the ‘mechanics’ of the system or is it just a case of waiting?

IIRC the Turbomotive has LEDs built into the lamps themselves with electrical prongs on each lamp which get plugged into the body.

 

In theory this should make it easy-ish to insert blanking pieces if the lamps are not desired but on the other hand means the lamps need to be large enough for folk to handle / manipulate / plug / unplug.

 

Hornby won’t want to develop multiple systems so I expect the arrangement on the Black 5 will be the same.

 

A fibre optic system with theLEDs built into the loco would no doubt enable smaller lamps - but that introduces design complications in the tooling and in particular trying to avoid light leakage from places you don’t want it.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

.

and, talking to friends, I'm by no means the only one cutting back pre-orders, or intending to if this feature isn't deleted, or satisfactorily amended,  ahead of release.    

 

John

It’s the nature of human friendships that there is a tendency to gravitate towards friendships with like minded people - and it’s no different within the hobby of model railways.

 

As such “All my friends thing it’s naff” or “All my friends think it is great” doesn’t actually mean anything in the wider scheme of things or should be used as a yardstick to judge whether a venture is successful

 

In fact if you want to know how well something you don’t like is being received you need to look away from what your friends are saying and instead concentrate on what people who are not you friends or do not share your interests are saying. 

 

Given the way the naysayers within the hobby were proved wrong over the TT venture I am of the view that if Hornby say their is a strong market for steam locos with working lamps I’m inclined to believe them.

 

[MikeParkin65]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Given the way the naysayers within the hobby were proved wrong over the TT venture I am of the view that if Hornby say their is a strong market for steam locos with working lamps I’m inclined to believe them.

 

I'm more than happy to accept I know nothing about the business side nor do I have any presumption that I speak for anyone but myself. I'm sure the segment of the market that will be attracted to this new feature has been researched - the designer I spoke to at Warley said as much. We also know that traditionally the biggest return on tooling has been the first run of a model - subsequent re runs even where a model has been in apparently very high demand (take for example 46256) have left models sitting on shelves for extended periods.

 

So, whilst I am sure pre orders for the new Black Five are strong and a 'boycott' by any of us who dont want the lamps won't affect Hornby's sales of the first releases one bit I do wonder if Hornby have factored in repeat business and those of us who in theory have a use for multiple Black Fives?

 

I've had one on pre order for ages (way before lamps were an issue) and I'm not on reflection going to cancel that order and let my dealer down  but I won't be preordering a second and if the lamps are fixed in any way or not able to be removed without scars left I won't be buying any future issues from this tooling either.

 

Fun fact - the most expensive Hornby related thing I bought at Warley this year was another Brassmasters detailing kit for the current 2002 Hornby model to upgrade another of my stash of ebay bargains which will have still cost me less than £100 once complete :)

[maico]

Plug in removable LED lamps have been around years. I guess the problem is mounting them on vertical lamp irons where they need to be semi-permanently secured and can't be moved around?

 

Trix Ho

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by maico

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

It’s the nature of human friendships that there is a tendency to gravitate towards friendships with like minded people - and it’s no different within the hobby of model railways.

 

As such “All my friends thing it’s naff” or “All my friends think it is great” doesn’t actually mean anything in the wider scheme of things or should be used as a yardstick to judge whether a venture is successful

 

In fact if you want to know how well something you don’t like is being received you need to look away from what your friends are saying and instead concentrate on what people who are not you friends or do not share your interests are saying. 

 

Given the way the naysayers within the hobby were proved wrong over the TT venture I am of the view that if Hornby say their is a strong market for steam locos with working lamps I’m inclined to believe them.

 

 

All I know is that, amongst my circle, the reaction to the execution has been pretty universally negative , despite most of us being in favour of the principle.

 

Hornby tends to misjudge the market about once a decade. How long ago was "Design Clever"? ☺️

 

The proof of the pudding will be how much you can get off the price of a Batch 1 new Black Five six or eight weeks after release, and whether subsequent runs receive a similar treatment. 

 

That said, I (fervently) hope they'll drastically improve the look of these before they reach production. 

 

Similarly, it's way too early to know if TT-120 will keep enough of its initial momentum to make it a long-term success. The old Tri-ang TT3 range went well to begin with but new introductions rather stagnated, leading to declining interest after five years and it was gone inside ten.

 

TT-120 seems to have attracted a good number of early adopters, but to avoid history repeating itself, Hornby will need to keep new releases coming to keep them happy and attract more. As the scale "matures" , sales growth is likely to see a natural degree of levelling off. To ensure that is only temporary, both Hornby and their customers will need to "Keep the Faith". I'm pretty sure that SK fully "got that" but we don't know to what extent his successor shares his zeal for TT-120, or his tenacity.  As ever, it'll be the finance boys that will decide in the final analysis. 

 

John

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Invicta]

On 26/11/2023 at 22:13, ikcdab said:

All this new innovation, lamps, synchronised smoke, wheel squeel etc....

 

Yet still no locomotive crews!  Such a simple and cheap thing to fit, yet the overwhelming majority of RTR engines run around with ghost drivers....

 

On 27/11/2023 at 04:30, Johan DC said:

Hornby put them in their latest loco's. 9F, P2, Dunlop A1 all Came with crew.

 

 

 

That ought to be the most obvious extra feature they could add, and they were capable of doing it 30-odd years ago; My original tender-drive Black 5 from the early 80's (OK, so 40 years ago, I'm older than I care to admit!) came with them, as did one or two other Hornby tender locos I bought back in my teens- Remember the unpainted driver and fireman figures, the ones with the seated driver who looked like he was sitting on a tea chest?- Were they of Triang origin? When did they stop including them?

 

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Because a large and growing sector of the hobby (with a bias towards them being new entrants to the hobby and thus a group worthy of nurturing from a financial perspective) want lots of bells and whistles! With diesel locos today featuring extensive lighting packages (many of which feature over bright lights) it is a natural progression in a lot of people’s eyes for steam to do the same.

 

I've got no problem with them including the bells and whistles to attract that part of the market, I just want the bells and whistles to be done properly. I'm all in favour of working lighting on steam locos, if we can have it of reasonably prototypical dimness, rather than full beam, and the lamps are moveable and not horribly overscale.

 

I'd just rather wait until they can get it right before they bring it to market, rather than paying out £200+ for the rather half-baked version we were offered on Turbomotive and look to be getting on the Black 5.

[Legend]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

It’s the nature of human friendships that there is a tendency to gravitate towards friendships with like minded people - and it’s no different within the hobby of model railways.

 

As such “All my friends thing it’s naff” or “All my friends think it is great” doesn’t actually mean anything in the wider scheme of things or should be used as a yardstick to judge whether a venture is successful

 

In fact if you want to know how well something you don’t like is being received you need to look away from what your friends are saying and instead concentrate on what people who are not you friends or do not share your interests are saying. 

 

Given the way the naysayers within the hobby were proved wrong over the TT venture I am of the view that if Hornby say their is a strong market for steam locos with working lamps I’m inclined to believe them.

 

 

 No actually he is right ........its just naff .

 

The toy sector of the market isn't going to buy a £250 train . Its the enthusiast market that's wanting this model and will be driving sales . These lamps need dramatically shrunk , not perpetually display the Royal train code or just get deleted .  Frankly oil lights in the steam age were not bright , so I cant see anything wrong with jeweled lamps , for those that want to use them 

[stewartingram]

Nobody has yet commented on that pic with the Royal headcode - with the top lamp on the bracket lowered to the mid rh side of the smokebox door. A position brought about in the last part of steam days, to move it away from the proximity of the 25kv ohl.

 This is a period when there was NO haulage of Royal trains.....