Hornby 2022 Black 5 new tooling

[TheSignalEngineer]

Another vote for no pre-fitted lamps. 

I've been wanting a Caprotti for years but as normal moves on my layout are 10:1 in favour of freight it's most likely to appear on one of those. If on passenger it would probably be on an excursion, returning tender first either ECS or light engine shortly after. Later it would come back tender first then go home as express passenger.

[Ventnor]

7 hours ago, JhornG201 said:

That’s unfortunate to hear, and something I sort of expected when the Turbomotive appeared with fixed position lamps which was supposed to have the same lighting arrangement.
 

I’m not sure about others, but I’d prefer no lamps fitted as standard so you can have your own lamp code without having to cut and remove the lights and fit new lamp irons, especially considering the Black 5 is a mixed traffic loco. The feature is not quite the step forward it was originally made out to be.

Totally agree, NO LAMPS PLEASE!! Please, no lamps!!

Edited October 17, 2023 by Ventnor
Added text.

[simmo009]

Is not that lamp arrangement also valid for other train types I.e. newspapers, on duty breakdown etc?

[Johan DC]

If it's an express Loco, I prefer with. Safes me the time of fitting them myself. 

 

[Brocp]

Ah Hornby, the only manufacturer adding details people mostly don't want.

 

As long as they add lamp irons in the detail bag when people chuck these fixed ones I'll be happy.

[Wheatley]

Another no vote for lamps here. No wonder we've bust the £200 mark with over-specced detail like this. 

 

Quite apart from the over complication you can't see oil lamps that well in daylight anyway, so lit ones are pointless on most layouts. But then you couldn't normally see pre-Wipac lamps on deisels either and no-one else seems much bothered about that ongoing anomaly. 

[atom3624]

The pricepoint is seen as justification to not limit lamp location - understood and agreed.

Can it not be possible to have reliably removable / replaceable lamps depending on rake to be hauled?

 

Al.

[E100]

I would like them pre-fitted on express passenger locos but on a black 5... ...the clues in the name 5P5F / 5MT...

[MikeParkin65]

'Working' lamps for steam loco's are a gimmick and as was stated up thread the Hornby designer can't make them moveable so that the modeller can set them correctly for the train being operated. The light from oil lamps is all but invisible in daylight whilst in model form there seems to be an obsession at the moment of making everything neon bright. I've got a Black Five on pre order and its a shame that it seems the first thing I'll need to do is remove these unnecessary lights and repair any damage caused in doing so.

Edited October 18, 2023 by MikeParkin65
Typo

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Johan DC said:

If it's an express Loco, I prefer with. Safes me the time of fitting them myself. 

 

Mixed traffic engine so a maid of all work.   Admittedly I had several very fast runs behind them on Class 1 passenger trains but I definitely saw far more of them on just about everything except Class 1 trains.

[simmo009]

According to Phil, they had immense trouble with lamp irons,  so I wouldn't expect any in the detail pack but you never know. 

Mike Parkin, you just need to snip a wire (or two? ) to stop the lights, and the lamp bodies can remain.

The problem is the running plate is 1mm thick. The LED is 0.6mm thick, leaving only 0.4mm for a recess for the lamp base if I am remembering correctly. Removing the LEDs and lamps completely will leave a hole and a recess to fill. Owners choice I suppose. 

But I concur with The Stationmaster that a freight orientation would have been more appropriate, but more complicated if a lamp were needed on the smokebox door.

Well, you can't please everyone all the time.

[Johan DC]

Would lamps not in use be removed from the smokebox door/Running plate? Or just not lit? 

[MikeParkin65]

30 minutes ago, simmo009 said:

According to Phil, they had immense trouble with lamp irons,  so I wouldn't expect any in the detail pack but you never know. 

Mike Parkin, you just need to snip a wire (or two? ) to stop the lights, and the lamp bodies can remain.

The problem is the running plate is 1mm thick. The LED is 0.6mm thick, leaving only 0.4mm for a recess for the lamp base if I am remembering correctly. Removing the LEDs and lamps completely will leave a hole and a recess to fill. Owners choice I suppose. 

But I concur with The Stationmaster that a freight orientation would have been more appropriate, but more complicated if a lamp were needed on the smokebox door.

Well, you can't please everyone all the time.

Hopefully the lights will turn off with DCC in any case so wire snipping not required. It is a retrograde step having fixed lights tho especially if the base model has been compromised to fit them. I wager the majority of modellers don't fix lamps - so the Black Five will stand out like a sore thumb. Those of us who do fix lamps will have a loco with an inappropriate code most of the time which will also stick out like a sore thumb. Best solution is a set of decent lamps (non working) in the accessary  pack designed to fit on the lamp iron. 

 

Good that Hornby are looking to innovate but this in my opinion an innovation that shouldn't make it into production. If it does I'll deal with it but as I said earlier it is I think a gimmick attractive only to those who like sparkly things. 

[MikeParkin65]

4 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Would lamps not in use be removed from the smokebox door/Running plate? Or just not lit? 

Removed 

[John Isherwood]

42 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Hopefully the lights will turn off with DCC in any case so wire snipping not required. It is a retrograde step having fixed lights tho especially if the base model has been compromised to fit them. I wager the majority of modellers don't fix lamps - so the Black Five will stand out like a sore thumb. Those of us who do fix lamps will have a loco with an inappropriate code most of the time which will also stick out like a sore thumb. Best solution is a set of decent lamps (non working) in the accessary  pack designed to fit on the lamp iron. 

 

Good that Hornby are looking to innovate but this in my opinion an innovation that shouldn't make it into production. If it does I'll deal with it but as I said earlier it is I think a gimmick attractive only to those who like sparkly things. 

 

Marketting will always want innovation / gimmicks; the hardest job for the designer must be to fight the demands of those who know nowt about railways, and persuade them that inappropriate gimmicks can be detrimental to the product.

 

(See the adverse comments re 'bling' on the new Hornby Standard 2MT 2-6-0).

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Marketting will always want innovation / gimmicks; the hardest job for the designer must be to fight the demands of those who know nowt about railways, and persuade them that inappropriate gimmicks can be detrimental to the product.

 

(See the adverse comments re 'bling' on the new Hornby Standard 2MT 2-6-0).

 

CJI.

Nothing a pair of Xuron track cutters and a pin vice can't rectify! 👹

[The Meerkat]

is this smoke and sound one ?

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Would lamps not in use be removed from the smokebox door/Running plate? Or just not lit? 

In daylight the lamp body itself was the indication, same with tail lamps*. They were only required to be lit in darkness, fog, falling snow or if there was a tunnel en route, although in practice that last one meant they were lit most of the time. So removed when not in use. 

 

*(So all those working tail lamps on your pre-1974(?) light deisels are wrong too, they should be oil tail lamps. I'm running out of bug bears here !)

[Creampot Junction]

I for one would like the working lamps even if there are fixed for an express or not. I would be disappointed if they didnt as as at the end of the day, I have ordered this at a high price and would want all the bell and whistles for that price.  

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Creampot Junction said:

I for one would like the working lamps even if there are fixed for an express or not. I would be disappointed if they didnt as as at the end of the day, I have ordered this at a high price and would want all the bell and whistles for that price.  

They generally weren't lit during the hours of daylight anyway, 

 

However, if Hornby must do this, without the lamps being moveable, it would surely be better to do it on an Express passenger or pure goods loco, where they'll be correct more of the time.

 

I'd prefer them to avoid doing it on a mixed traffic class until they can be made interchangeable. 

[adb968008]

I like the lamps on the turbomotive.

 

What I dont like is the brightness, red lights and fixed nature of them.

funnily enough this was the same issues with KRModels GT3.

 

if they can be made removable/ reconfigurable, forget the red, reduce the brightness then I think theyve got a winner.

 

They get away with it on 6202 as its really not going to be anything other than express, and the tender light can be turned off and is somewhat hidden.

 

But as they say in my industry, if your going to do it, doing it right, or just dont do it…

 

The backlash on red lamp in express position on a black 5 I can imagine being sizeable…

 

What I do note on the image 1 page back is the frame is diecast, and the lamp look to me to be in Express Freight…  not express passenger, in addition to a tender lamp.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by adb968008

[Covkid]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Nothing a pair of Xuron track cutters and a pin vice can't rectify! 👹

But there really is no need for them. Why on earth would you want to reach over and apply finger grease to your tender sides to switch lights which really should be controlled by a decoder if at all.

Leave them off and allow the purchaser to apply if necessary.

 

Hornby, you have set OO modelling back by ten years

[adb968008]

8 hours ago, Covkid said:

But there really is no need for them. Why on earth would you want to reach over and apply finger grease to your tender sides to switch lights which really should be controlled by a decoder if at all.

Leave them off and allow the purchaser to apply if necessary.

 

Hornby, you have set OO modelling back by ten years

To support DC modellers, without having to lift the loco off the track.

 

However a magnet and reed switch would also do the job, better imo.

Edited October 19, 2023 by adb968008

[SteveM666]

Well I am not going with the herd on this one.

The history of model railways is full of new and innovative features that started off as gimmicks but quickly became refined and ultimately standard on a majority of models. For example the hobby started with a big key sticking out of a clockwork motor and progressed through DC to Zero 1, DCC and more recently HM7K.

I see the inclusion of working lights on steamers as another step along that same road.

Its called progress.

[Dunsignalling]

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

To support DC modellers, without having to lift the loco off the track.

 

However a magnet and reed switch would also do the job, better imo.

 

"Support" of that kind, I can happily do without!