1938 Tube Stock

[Darius43]

Please can we take this irreconcilable DC vs DCC argument to another thread and get back to the subject of EFE rail tube trains.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[GoingUnderground]

5 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Please can we take this irreconcilable DC vs DCC argument to another thread and get back to the subject of EFE rail tube trains.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

I couldn't agree more. It's been done to death so many times on RMWeb and elsewhere.

 

But it did come up in passing when the subject of DCC Sound for the '38 Stock was raised, and discussion of the quality and merits of the sound projects available for the EFE/Bachmann '38 Stock is within topic.

[GoingUnderground]

On 03/06/2022 at 17:53, Metr0Land said:

 

I've always been mildly surprised no-one's had a go at the Electric Sleet Loco.  They look to me to be quite easy to sketch up for 3D printing, and if no drawings are available there's one in the LT museum to measure.  Any Underground layout with an overground section can justify one.

I thought that Phil Radley was going to do one if there was enough interest. Done well it could form the basis of the original Central London Railway MU DM stock as the sleet car in the Museum Depot was built from such stock. That's why it has that strange roofline, quite unlike that of Standard Stock that followed it.

[PhilJ W]

10 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I couldn't agree more. It's been done to death so many times on RMWeb and elsewhere.

 

But it did come up in passing when the subject of DCC Sound for the '38 Stock was raised, and discussion of the quality and merits of the sound projects available for the EFE/Bachmann '38 Stock is within topic.

The 1938 stock, or any Underground/Tube stock for that matter must be amongst the most difficult to create a sound profile for. Not only can different weather conditions affect the sound but they can sound very different confined within a tunnel. I prefer not to have sound and as I only have two very small layouts DC suits me fine

[Erixtar1992]

Dont sound any different at all, afterall its the tunnel that causes the echo’s ect not the train lol

Edited June 19, 2022 by Erixtar1992

[Robert Shrives]

As an aside I was looking to touch up the front of an EFE 1938 tube set as part of an "upgrade" and having shaved off moulded handrails a dot of paint required . Well a dead ringer for Precision paints "blood" from blood and custard colours  P116 .  Just now to sort the yellow panel on the front and yes the helpful painters at Ryde gave two widths of yellow ! 007/ 009 were narrow.  004,006,008 were wide .

 

Robert      

[GoingUnderground]

There was some debate earlier about the speed of the EFE Rail '38 stock. Some folks seemed to think that the stock was incapable of travelling faster than 25 mph, the normal tunnel speed, which seems to be the top speed of the EFE Rail model(s). Well, I just came across a video filmed in 2018 of '38 stock returning from Amersham to the Ealing Common Depot. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyF5ejtJccI

 

This shows that the '38 stock was capable of rather more than 25 mph, much closer to 40-45mph, which supports the view held by some, myself included, that Bachmann have got the gearing wrong on the EFE Rail models. For those who say that the video is not typical as it was shot on the outer reaches of the Metropolitan Line where the stations are further apart, the fact that much of the route between Amersham and Harrow is "downhill", The train was probably lightly loaded as it was clearly the final run of day for the LT Museum Heritage '38 Stock, and also it on the Fast line between Moor Park and Harrow. To me that doesn't matter. It just proves that where the surface stations were further apart, such as on the DC lines between Queens Park and Watford Junction, the '38 stock was perfectly capable of reaching close to its maximum speed which is though to be close to 45mph.

 

Incidentally, using the video's timings and distances according to Quail Maps suggests that the train is doing well over 40 mph, possibly close to 50 mph, but, as I said that is a "gradient assisted" performance. 

 

 

[andyman7]

30 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

There was some debate earlier about the speed of the EFE Rail '38 stock. Some folks seemed to think that the stock was incapable of travelling faster than 25 mph, the normal tunnel speed, which seems to be the top speed of the EFE Rail model(s). Well, I just came across a video filmed in 2018 of '38 stock returning from Amersham to the Ealing Common Depot. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyF5ejtJccI

 

This shows that the '38 stock was capable of rather more than 25 mph, much closer to 40-45mph, which supports the view held by some, myself included, that Bachmann have got the gearing wrong on the EFE Rail models. For those who say that the video is not typical as it was shot on the outer reaches of the Metropolitan Line where the stations are further apart, the fact that much of the route between Amersham and Harrow is "downhill", The train was probably lightly loaded as it was clearly the final run of day for the LT Museum Heritage '38 Stock, and also it on the Fast line between Moor Park and Harrow. To me that doesn't matter. It just proves that where the surface stations were further apart, such as on the DC lines between Queens Park and Watford Junction, the '38 stock was perfectly capable of reaching close to its maximum speed which is though to be close to 45mph.

 

Incidentally, using the video's timings and distances according to Quail Maps suggests that the train is doing well over 40 mph, possibly close to 50 mph, but, as I said that is a "gradient assisted" performance. 

 

 

The preserved 38 stock train was out last Saturday and Sunday too. Several people were using GPS to calculate the speed and it managed 45-50 mph both ways. It was a well loaded set (no standing but all seats taken)

[adb968008]

10 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The preserved 38 stock train was out last Saturday and Sunday too. Several people were using GPS to calculate the speed and it managed 45-50 mph both ways. It was a well loaded set (no standing but all seats taken)

I had a spirited ride behind it a few years back to… Amersham shuttles are great, a lot of things get stretched there.. I had a spirited ride with 9466 there too.

[teeinox]

It was interesting listening to the sound files and trying to remember what the 1938 tube stock sounded like as I remember them in the early 60s.  A few things struck me.

 

One is I don’t understand why in the sound file, on starting, there is a representation of what seems to be a wheel-slip noise.  I do not remember them slipping as a regular thing.

 

Secondly, on starting, the first thing you heard was the double “clonk” of the two line breakers engaging before the motors started.  It would be nice to have that; it was very distinctive.

 

Finally, the compressors had a very distinctive sound.  At that time, most trains were still equipped with the infamous KLL4 compressor, the 1938 tube stock’s Achilles heel.  This was a rotary, not a reciprocating, device.  It therefore had a constant, rather high-pitched sound which dropped slightly as the train got underway.  The KLL4s ran most of the time since they were barely adequate to maintain pressure.  They lived under all trailers and NDMs.  But I guess to represent the sound of the compressor, one would need a separate sound file and speaker so it would not be practical?

[GoingUnderground]

I was in discussion recently with someone who claimed to have inside knowledge about Bachmann's plans for further EFE Rail tube stock releases. They didn't give anything away, but did say that there would be more models to follow.

 

My money will be on 59/62 Stock next. for the simple reason that whilst the 2 EFE Rail '38 stock releases have sold out, there is a risk that the market could be getting close to saturated. All the "heavy lifting" of creating the motorised chassis has been done.  I'm convinced that the original EFE static models of the '38 and '59/'62 stock used the same tooling, but with different inserts to produce the two different cabs. So a batch of 59/62 would probably not involve any further development costs at all, be a useful way to dip a toe in the water to see how well that sells whilst the market digests the recent '38 Stock releases.

 

For those who don't know, '59/62 stock was used routinely on more lines than the '38 Stock, if you ignore the '38's fill-in role on the East London Line, but that was treated a a branch of the Metropolitan at the time, and the one 4 car set of '38 Stock that stood in for the flat fronted '35 Stock on the Central. '59/62 Stock was bought for the Piccadilly line as 7 car trains (4 + 3 sets), but was diverted to the Central line to form 8 car trains (4 + 4 sets). Additional stock by now called the '62 Stock was ordered specifically for the Central to replace its Standard Stock and make good the '59 Stock deliveries diverted to the Central. The '59/'62 Stock was later cascaded on to the Bakerloo and Northern lines when the Piccadilly got the '73 Stock, and the Central its '92 Stock. '59/62 has been released with Central, northern and Piccadilly line destinations, but not with Bakerloo line ones. So there is a potentially small but untapped market for a'59/'62 set with the destination "Queens Park", and before someone says "It's Queen's Park", I have examples of both being used by LT/LU. I don't have a '59/'62 Stock destination blind though to check which was used for real.

 

An interesting (and largely undocumented) aside for anyone who cares, IIRC, there was a difference in the colour of the upholstery between the '59 and '62 Stock. The '59 had a blue/green colourway or at least that's how I remember seeing it on the Piccadilly line back in the early 1960s, whilst the '62 Stock (which was my daily commute to Central London for very many years) had the same grey/red/black upholstery as the Metropolitan's A60/62 stock. However, if some one said that it was the '56 Stock which had the blue/green upholsery I wouldn't argue with them, I just remember seeing  "silver" trains" with blue/green seating on the Piccadilly.

Edited September 14, 2022 by GoingUnderground

[wainwright1]

1 hour ago, GoingUnderground said:

I was in discussion recently with someone who claimed to have inside knowledge about Bachmann's plans for further EFE Rail tube stock releases. They didn't give anything away, but did say that there would be more models to follow.

 

My money will be on 59/62 Stock next. for the simple reason that whilst the 2 EFE Rail '38 stock releases have sold out, there is a risk that the market could be getting close to saturated. All the "heavy lifting" of creating the motorised chassis has been done.  I'm convinced that the original EFE static models of the '38 and '59/'62 stock used the same tooling, but with different inserts to produce the two different cabs. So a batch of 59/62 would probably not involve any further development costs at all, be a useful way to dip a toe in the water to see how well that sells whilst the market digests the recent '38 Stock releases.

 

For those who don't know, '59/62 stock was used routinely on more lines than the '38 Stock, if you ignore the '38's fill-in role on the East London Line, but that was treated a a branch of the Metropolitan at the time, and the one 4 car set of '38 Stock that stood in for the flat fronted '35 Stock on the Central. '59/62 Stock was bought for the Piccadilly line as 7 car trains (4 + 3 sets), but was diverted to the Central line to form 8 car trains (4 + 4 sets). Additional stock by now called the '62 Stock was ordered specifically for the Central to replace its Standard Stock and make good the '59 Stock deliveries diverted to the Central. The '59/'62 Stock was later cascaded on to the Bakerloo and Northern lines when the Piccadilly got the '73 Stock, and the Central its '92 Stock. '59/62 has been released with Central, northern and Piccadilly line destinations, but not with Bakerloo line ones. So there is a potentially small but untapped market for a'59/'62 set with the destination "Queens Park", and before someone says "It's Queen's Park", I have examples of both being used by LT/LU. I don't have a '59/'62 Stock destination blind though to check which was used for real.

 

An interesting (and largely undocumented) aside for anyone who cares, IIRC, there was a difference in the colour of the upholstery between the '59 and '62 Stock. The '59 had a blue/green colourway or at least that's how I remember seeing it on the Piccadilly line back in the early 1960s, whilst the '62 Stock (which was my daily commute to Central London for very many years) had the same grey/red/black upholstery as the Metropolitan's A60/62 stock. However, if some one said that it was the '56 Stock which had the blue/green upholsery I wouldn't argue with them, I just remember seeing  "silver" trains" with blue/green seating on the Piccadilly.

 

A 2 car 1938 stock set from the IoW in Island Line livery has not been done yet and might prove of interest.

 

All the best

Ray

[GoingUnderground]

You mean in addition to the 3 different Island Line liveries that have already been produced and released as 2 car static unpowered sets:

October 2008 - Network South East (gift set 99932),

November 2009 - LT Tribute Red (gift set 99934), and 

July 2011 - Dinosaur/Jurassic Coast (gift set 99935).

 

I don't know how fast these sold out. 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by GoingUnderground

[adb968008]

I reckon more are probably on the cards, they have been popular.

 

However I did note that both the older and newer versions has 0821 as the production dates in the box, so presumably were made at a similar time, but were released separately for whatever reason.

 

i’d find it hard to think 59/62 stock would be so quick behind, and there is risk of saturation… I bought two originally, but swapped one out for the latest one rather than adding a 3rd as i’m trying to avoid having loads of tube stock !

 

The first one sold really fast, probably in part for novelty, and some for collectors too… the second one has slowed a little, but I wouldn't say its shelfware as several have sold out or are down to odd ones.. a third red one I think would be overkill… so my reckoning Bachmann have got it right.

Edited September 15, 2022 by adb968008

[Bazza]

Regarding speeds of 38 stock, the ride on the long run between Acton Town and Hammersmith on the Piccadilly line used to be quite exciting and probably felt faster than it really was but certainly well in excess of 25mph.

[PhilJ W]

The speed is restricted in the tube tunnels for obvious reasons.

[Gwiwer]

28 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The speed is restricted in the tube tunnels for obvious reasons.

Not only the pressures and wind resistance involved but also a need to avoid excessive “piston effect” which can nevertheless result in quite strong draughts blowing along platforms as a train approaches. 
 

The older tube lines also had to follow the street plan at surface level to avoid paying for the “land rights” to pass beneath buildings. This gives rise to some extreme curvature probably at its worst between Liverpool Street and Bank although the Piccadilly Line also has multiple reverse-curves and others have some sharp corners too. 
 

The much more recent Victoria and Jubilee Lines were built under revised legislation allowing use of ground space without a need to compensate property owners which allowed for long easy curves, and were built with much more draught relief.  These factors permit much higher line speeds up to 50mph with the consequent ability to run more trains to a closer headway. Both lines offer up to 36 trains per hour I believe. About double the capacity of the older lines.  Indeed the Victoria Line no longer quotes its headway in minutes but in seconds - every 135 seconds off-peak and every 100 seconds at peak times. The main section of the Jubilee Line from Stratford to West Hampstead is the same with most trains going on to Willesden Green or Wembley Park and around three in five to Stanmore

Edited September 21, 2022 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

On 14/09/2022 at 14:35, GoingUnderground said:

My money will be on 59/62 Stock next. for the simple reason that whilst the 2 EFE Rail '38 stock releases have sold out, there is a risk that the market could be getting close to saturated.

Why not 1956 stock?  It’s a little different but basically uses 1938 stock design with the 1959 stock flatter front. As built (and for most of its life) it had the five headcode lights of 1938 stock. 
 

I am well aware that there were only three such trains and that they all differed in detail. But other than the Gloucester RC&W units (1008/9+1019/1) which had a visible waistrail beading they would look the same at 1:76 scale. 
 

They were used on Piccadilly and Northern Lines and whilst often kept in their own 7-car paired trains were fully compatible with 1959 stock. Trains were sometimes formed with a unit each of 1956/1959 stock.  
 

As 1959 and 1962 stocks were also compatible despite differences below the floor the 1956 stock could also have run with 1962 units. It never ran on the Central Line which uses 8-car trains but some 1962 units did transfer to the Northern Line. I believe that was to release the 1956 stock for withdrawal but they might have run together at some point 

 

Anyone wondering today why 1959 stock numbering began with unit 1012/3 should look back a few years to the 1956 stock.  Just as the previous generation of 1938 stock was numbered from unit 10012/11012 upwards because the 1935 prototype stock used the numbers from 10000/11000. 
 

.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Gwiwer

[PhilJ W]

24 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Why not 1956 stock?  It’s a little different but basically uses 1938 stock design with the 1959 stock flatter front. As built (and for most of its life) it had the five headcode lights of 1938 stock. 
 

I am well aware that there were only three such trains and that they all differed in detail. But other than the Gloucester RC&W units (1008/9+1019/1) which had a visible waistrail beading they would look the same at 1:76 scale. 
 

They were used on Piccadilly and Northern Lines and whilst often kept in their own 7-car paired trains were fully compatible with 1959 stock. Trains were sometimes formed with a unit each of 1956/1959 stock.  
 

As 1959 and 1962 stocks were also compatible despite differences below the floor the 1956 stock could also have run with 1962 units. It never ran on the Central Line which uses 8-car trains but some 1962 units did transfer to the Northern Line. I believe that was to release the 1956 stock for withdrawal but they might have run together at some point 

 

Anyone wondering today why 1959 stock numbering began with unit 1012/3 should look back a few years to the 1956 stock.  Just as the previous generation of 1938 stock was numbered from unit 10012/11012 upwards because the 1935 prototype stock used the numbers from 10000/11000. 
 

.

And don't forget the 1935 stock. Not necessarily the 'streamlined' versions but the ones that 'styled' the 1938 stock. The differences are square instead of round marker lights, the cab doors and blanked out windows either side of the passenger doors.

[Michael Hodgson]

53 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Not only the pressures and wind resistance involved but also a need to avoid excessive “piston effect” which can nevertheless result in quite strong draughts blowing along platforms as a train approaches. 
 

Doesn't this piston effect help other trains travelling in the same direction?  A bit like Brunel's atmospheric railway

[PhilJ W]

57 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Not only the pressures and wind resistance involved but also a need to avoid excessive “piston effect” which can nevertheless result in quite strong draughts blowing along platforms as a train approaches. 

 

2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Doesn't this piston effect help other trains travelling in the same direction?  A bit like Brunel's atmospheric railway

The piston effect is used to ventilate the system. There is quite a draught when a train is approaching even at a maximum of 25mph*. Any faster and its possible to blow passengers waiting on the platform over. It also had a disastrous effect on the Kings Cross fire as the piston effect pushed air into the base of the fire. *As the trains are slowing down to stop the speed would be less than 25mph.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

As the trains are slowing down to stop the speed would be less than 25mph

I understand Victoria and Jubilee Line trains enter platforms at as much as 50mph. Refer to my earlier comments about much greater draught relief on those lines. But otherwise around 25mph yes. 

[GoingUnderground]

On 21/09/2022 at 12:46, Gwiwer said:

Why not 1956 stock?  It’s a little different but basically uses 1938 stock design with the 1959 stock flatter front. As built (and for most of its life) it had the five headcode lights of 1938 stock. 
 

I am well aware that there were only three such trains and that they all differed in detail. But other than the Gloucester RC&W units (1008/9+1019/1) which had a visible waistrail beading they would look the same at 1:76 scale. 
 

They were used on Piccadilly and Northern Lines and whilst often kept in their own 7-car paired trains were fully compatible with 1959 stock. Trains were sometimes formed with a unit each of 1956/1959 stock.  
 

As 1959 and 1962 stocks were also compatible despite differences below the floor the 1956 stock could also have run with 1962 units. It never ran on the Central Line which uses 8-car trains but some 1962 units did transfer to the Northern Line. I believe that was to release the 1956 stock for withdrawal but they might have run together at some point 

 

Anyone wondering today why 1959 stock numbering began with unit 1012/3 should look back a few years to the 1956 stock.  Just as the previous generation of 1938 stock was numbered from unit 10012/11012 upwards because the 1935 prototype stock used the numbers from 10000/11000. 
 

.

1956 Stock was the prototype for the 1959/62 Stock, and was an updating of the '38 Stock design. It was originally numbered in the 4xxxx series and comprised 3 x 4 car sets and 3 x 3 car sets to make up 3 x 7 car trains, 21 cars in total. These were all modified to be able to run with the '59 stock and renumbered from 1000-1011 inclusive for the DMs, 2000-2010 (even numbers only) for the 6 Trailers, and the 3 NDMs were 9001, 9005 and 9009 (to match the D DMs in the 4 car set. The '56 Stock, and later the '59 Stock was for the Piccadilly Line which ran a mix of Standard and '38 Stock from the introduction of the '38 Stock through to the early 1960s when the '59 Stock was finally delivered. The Northern Line, apart from the City Branch, used only '38 Stock. When the Piccadilly Line got the '73 Stock, the displaced '38,  '56, and '59 Stock was transferred on to the Northern Line and some of the '38 Stock was withdrawn, primarily the 1949 variants which had different bogies which I believe were welded and being more rigid were cracking. Some of the '59 Stock finished its days on the Bakerloo after the Northern Line got the '95 Stock.

 

But those suggesting the '35 Flat fronted Stock or '56 Stock have missed my point. Those would require new tooling for the cab ends whereas the '59/62 stock tooling already exists and can be used without any further expenditure by Bachmann.  They could run the '59/62 tooling and produce "aluminium" stock, giving them any of the destinations on the Bakerloo Line, or West Ruislip, Ruislip Gardens, Ealing Broadway, Marble Arch, White City, Liverpool Street, Loughton, Debden or Grange Hill on the Central, or Rayners Lane, Northfields, Oakwood, Arnos Grove, or Hounslow on the Piccadilly as there haven't been any '59/62 Stock models with those destinations released previously.

[SRman]

On 21/09/2022 at 20:20, Bazza said:

Regarding speeds of 38 stock, the ride on the long run between Acton Town and Hammersmith on the Piccadilly line used to be quite exciting and probably felt faster than it really was but certainly well in excess of 25mph.

 

A pair of NSE liveried cars were recorded at 60 mph on the main lines towards Eastleigh when on test before being sent to the Isle of Wight.

[Erixtar1992]

On 12/09/2022 at 21:04, teeinox said:

It was interesting listening to the sound files and trying to remember what the 1938 tube stock sounded like as I remember them in the early 60s.  A few things struck me.

 

One is I don’t understand why in the sound file, on starting, there is a representation of what seems to be a wheel-slip noise.  I do not remember them slipping as a regular thing.

 

Secondly, on starting, the first thing you heard was the double “clonk” of the two line breakers engaging before the motors started.  It would be nice to have that; it was very distinctive.

 

Finally, the compressors had a very distinctive sound.  At that time, most trains were still equipped with the infamous KLL4 compressor, the 1938 tube stock’s Achilles heel.  This was a rotary, not a reciprocating, device.  It therefore had a constant, rather high-pitched sound which dropped slightly as the train got underway.  The KLL4s ran most of the time since they were barely adequate to maintain pressure.  They lived under all trailers and NDMs.  But I guess to represent the sound of the compressor, one would need a separate sound file and speaker so it would not be practical?

Look at vids of 483006 before being retired on IOW, was lots of wheelslip as if i remember there was an issue with some sort of resistor bank on one DM so would go straight to full power.

On my sound project the wheelslip only occurs if you wack the speed on the controller right up from a standstill. Drive normally and it wont happen.

 

it also has the two clicks of the line breakers closing that you mention when starting off.

 

i wasnt able to find a clip of one of the rotary compressors, i did look but sadly nothing. If you know of any id love to include it as a selectable option!

eric