RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 Would the Corridor 3rds been in GWR service before Nationalization? I have been informed that some brake 3rds and passenger brakes were out before nationalization, I was wondering about the Corridors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 According to Micheal Harris's book "Great Western Coaches" the build dates were as follows A23 - all first - 19/11/1949, 28/1/1950 and 1/7/1950 C82 - all third - 12/6/1948, 27/11/1948 30/4/1949 C82 - All third - 16/4/1949, 22/4/1950 D131 - brake third - 27/12/1947 D133 - brake third - 2/7/1949, 4/11/1950, 20/1/1951 E163 - comp - 23/10/1948 E164 - brake comp - 25/12/1948,30/7/1948, 30/12/50 E165 - comp - 5/11/1949, 9/9/1950 K45 - pass. brake van 3/12/1949, 25/11/1950 K46 - pas. brake van 7/7/1951 The dates given are the lot completion dates. So you can see that batches of the same diagram were ordered at different times, but the vast majority after nationalisation. Dean 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) How long would it have taken to build one coach or the whole batch? Edited February 23, 2013 by OnTheBranchline Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I cannot answer that but it is certain that at least some coaches were finished in full GWR livery for official photos. Such photos might lead some modellers to assume they entered traffic like that and indeed they might have. But the GWR was dead after January 1948 and there was no good reason to slap company initials on rolling stock once it was nationalised. What we do know is the Big Four liveries continued to be applied after 1948 until new directives were issued and so the Hawksworths initially carried GWR livery but minus GWR markings, in otherwords they carried a 'W' prefix. Edited February 23, 2013 by coachmann 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I cannot answer that but it is certain that at least some coaches were finished in full GWR livery for official photos. Such photos might lead some modellers to assume they entered traffic like that and indeed they might have. But the GWR was dead after January 1948 and there was no good reason to slap company initials on rolling stock once it was nationalised. What we do know is the Big Four liveries continued to be applied after 1948 until new directives were issued and so the Hawksworths initially carried GWR livery but minus GWR markings, in otherwords they carried a 'W' prefix.I've mentioned this before but surely any stock finished before nationalisation would have entered traffic pretty smartish, due to the general shortage of said items post-war? Anything pictured with GWR on the sides would have been in traffic shortly after it's official photograph. Why leave valuable assets lying around not earning their keep? The Hawksworth's were built in small numbers from 1946, so some (but probably not many) would have been in service in GWR livery for up to a couple of years. Any scenario that says none were used by the GWR, is as far as I am concerened, preposterous! Keith Edited February 23, 2013 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Quite correct, Keith, but I suppose the point is in the starting context of this thread is that none of the Hornby diagrams fall into the 'strictly GWR' category. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I've mentioned this before but surely any stock finished before nationalisation would have entered traffic pretty smartish, due to the general shortage of said items post-war? Any stock finished BEFORE nationalization would of course have carried Big Four insignia but there was no reason to carry Big Four ownership insignia afterwards. Anything pictured with GWR on the sides would have been in traffic shortly after it's official photograph. Why leave valuable assets lying around not earning their keep? I didnt suggest leaving valuable assets lying around. But leaving GWR on the coach sides would be a short-lived bit of flag waving. The Hawksworth's were built in small numbers from 1946, so some (but probably not many) would have been in service in GWR livery for up to a couple of years. GWR livery correct and even GWR style transfer insignia, but with the running number carrying a GWR style 'W' prefix. Any scenario that says none were used by the GWR, is as far as I am concerened, preposterous! Preposterous?...Have you swallowed a dictionary? Front-line coaches soon got prefixes M, E, W or S often using a transfer cut from the company transfer while the Big Four names were obliterated. Lessor stock was dealt with as and when mostly during 1948. I'm not sure when BR Gil Sans was adopted but I have a feeling it slightly preceded the BR colour schemes. Edited February 23, 2013 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 Front-line coaches soon got prefixes M, E, W or S often using a transfer cut from the company transfer while the Big Four names were obliterated. Lessor stock was dealt with as and when mostly during 1948. I'm not sure when BR Gil Sans was adopted but I have a feeling it slightly preceded the BR colour schemes. Are the dates in Harris accurate? There is a picture of 855 a corridor third labelled 1946 with full GWR livery. It is midway through a batch of which an earlier lot to the same diagram was finished in IIRC June 1948. Would two lots be under construction together? I know some were built by outside contractors. Would that explain it? There is also a quote about Plum and Spilt Milk livery being applied from 1947!!! Really? Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I assume its accurate as its taken from official sources. But the dates given are the dates for completing a batch, so some may well have emerged prior to the dates given Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Keith - 855 was one of a largish lot built by GloucesterRCW, so construction was probably spread over quite some time. Looks like early examples of Hornby's C82 3rd would therefore have properly been outshopped in GWR livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Are the dates in Harris accurate? There is a picture of 855 a corridor third labelled 1946 with full GWR livery. It is midway through a batch of which an earlier lot to the same diagram was finished in IIRC June 1948. Would two lots be under construction together? I know some were built by outside contractors. Would that explain it? Most likely. Each contractor or works would be alloted running numbers to apply to the coaches it was constructing. There is also a quote about Plum and Spilt Milk livery being applied from 1947!!! Really? May 1948 when the experimental trains were rolled out in plum and off-white. Keith The first of the Hawksworth was completed in August 1946 and 20 had been delivered by the end of the year. Early to mid 1947 saw another 30 Hawksworths added although 781 - 804 did not enter traffic in numerical order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) The first of the Hawksworth was completed in August 1946 and 20 had been delivered by the end of the year. Early to mid 1947 saw another 30 Hawksworths added although 781 - 804 did not enter traffic in numerical order. Looks like those who want can run a few pre BR. Or due to an overloaded parliamentary schedule Nationalisation had to be delayed by a couple of years, until 1950, and most Hawksworth coaches were delivered to the GWR! No good for me, I am supposed to running a railway set pre-war. Keith EDIT "preposterous" - my attempt to put "ridiculous" but brain wasn't up to speed (It's an age thing!) Edited February 23, 2013 by melmerby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 The first of the Hawksworth was completed in August 1946 and 20 had been delivered by the end of the year. Early to mid 1947 saw another 30 Hawksworths added although 781 - 804 did not enter traffic in numerical order. What type would those have been? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 What type would those have been? Corridor third. The batch (Lot 1691) was finally completed in June 1948. A number of orders that were placed by the GWR appear to have been cancelled by BR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6959 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The first of the Hawksworth was completed in August 1946 and 20 had been delivered by the end of the year. Early to mid 1947 saw another 30 Hawksworths added although 781 - 804 did not enter traffic in numerical order. Please can anyone say with reasonable accuracy which were the running numbers of the Hawksworth coaches that were delivered in 1946 and 1947? Michael Harris' book and Comet web pages give only the completion date of the last coach in each batch. Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted November 21, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 21, 2013 I just wanted to bump this thread to say how much the Hornby Hawksworth blow the Bachmann Colletts out of the water. Obviously they are two different price ranges but the Hawksworths are worth the price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted November 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2013 I just wanted to bump this thread to say how much the Hornby Hawksworth blow the Bachmann Colletts out of the water. Obviously they are two different price ranges but the Hawksworths are worth the price. I would hope so as the Colletts came out when I was still in short trousers.Perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 21, 2013 I just wanted to bump this thread to say how much the Hornby Hawksworth blow the Bachmann Colletts out of the water. Obviously they are two different price ranges but the Hawksworths are worth the price.Absolutely agree.......Problem,however is that they were post war construction,not as widely used as might be thought and do not fill a gap in mainstream GWR coaching stock.A decent rendering of some older Collett stock would be highly desirable,together with an upgrading of Bachmann's old warhorse. Only then will we approach something that is prototypically more appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro_man Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I just wanted to bump this thread to say how much the Hornby Hawksworth blow the Bachmann Colletts out of the water. Obviously they are two different price ranges but the Hawksworths are worth the price. The Hawksworths are current state of the art whereas the Colletts were state of the art way back in 1983 when Mainline first produced them. Hopefully future Hornby coaches will be to a similar high spec as the Hawksworths and not return to the standards of the past that we have seen in some details on the 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 tanks, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 VERY few - if any - passenger Hawksworths would have lasted into the 1970s. Just one or two lasted long enough to get blue and grey. The BGs (in all-over blue) survived a lot longer than the rest. By the mid-1960s Hawksworths weren't common on front-line work - nearly all of which was Mk1s. I recall two (in maroon) forming the 13.25 (SO) Oxford-Moreton-in-Marsh all stations stopper in 1965 with 6868 Penrhos Grange. They turned up on secondary services all over the place - look for pictures of the Gloucester-Ross-Hereford trains for instance, and behind Class 22s on branch services to Helston, Newquay etc before the DMUs took over. I recall seeing a photo of the Milton derailment in the 1950s, where there were a number of Hawksworths in the excursion train and the complete side of one vehicle had separated from the rest of the body. CHRIS LEIGH What type of Hawksworth coaches would have been seen behind a Class 22 on the Cornwall branches services? A corridor third? A composite, 1st/3rd brake? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold unravelled Posted January 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2014 You can't see the coaches, I'm afraid, but here is 6868 on Feb 24 1965, after we had a trip out from Oxford. Dave 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted January 4, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2014 What type of Hawksworth coaches would have been seen behind a Class 22 on the Cornwall branches services? A corridor third? A composite, 1st/3rd brake? I'm preparing such a set to represent early 60s branch and secondary services in the West Country and am finding it hard to find suitable pictures. All the books I have seem to cover the last steam operations then jump straight to early blue era DMUs! My 'guesstimated' formation consists (until somebody offers a correction) of BCK + SK + BSK, which looks reasonable; the long van of the latter being needed to cater for prams, parcels etc. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penrhos1920 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 You can't see the coaches, I'm afraid, but here is 6868 on Feb 24 1965, after we had a trip out from Oxford. 1-sca038.jpg Dave Lovely. My loco, exactly one year before I was born! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted January 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2014 What type of Hawksworth coaches would have been seen behind a Class 22 on the Cornwall branches services? A corridor third? A composite, 1st/3rd brake? Not a Hawksworth, but around 1961 Trains Illustrated carried a picture of a Class 22 near Perranporth with a single Collett BCK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Not a Hawksworth, but around 1961 Trains Illustrated carried a picture of a Class 22 near Perranporth with a single Collett BCK. Can someone please set out the codes for the following Hornby Hawksworth coaches, i.e. BG, BCK, etc R4411 Brake 3rd R4410 Coridor 3rd R4412 Composite R4413 1st/3rd Brake R4409 Full Brake - BG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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