Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[WFPettigrew]

12 hours ago, Schooner said:

a bit low still...

But isn't that prototypical for the T&S?!

[Graham T]

Tuesdays?

 

[figworthy]

21 hours ago, Schooner said:

Indeed not, much to the relief of the Board of the M&WJR-to-be! It was more that not five mins after positing a horse-drawn rail-(but really tram)way as the scheme's very first commercial iteration, the next stoned tern revealed just such a thing. I'll see about getting a copy of the map and section, should be interesting :)
 

 

Another nice set of piccies.

 

From what I hear of Stroud, stoned terns are not beyond the realms of possibility.  I don't know if it is still running, at one point in time there was a "Keep Stroud Weird" campaign.

 

Adrian

[Pacific231G]

On 30/04/2023 at 10:28, magmouse said:

 

As I know you will appreciate, the great thing about historical research is to develop a suitable methodology that will yield the results you want quickly and with least effort:

 

 

 

Yes, full signwriter*. Any glyph from an available digital font will almost certainly be too nuanced. One of my 'if I live to be a hundred' projects is to take a course in typography, and design a few signwriters' fonts for PO wagons, and general 19th century signage. (I'm hoping this aside will prompt several RMwebbers to post links to where people have already done that work...)

 

Hi Nick

I have a few such articles from various model railway mags in my cuttings collection. I'm busy at the moment but rattle my cage if I haven't responded in about a week's time.

Typography can be a bit of a rabbit hole - you get into it and modelling time all goes on it. I spent ages analysing the type face (probably a stencil) used for the French station name boards that appeared usually enamelled white on a blue background on the ends of station buildings just to get it right for my own. 

As I know you know but others may not, for printed typestyles the problem is that digital versions are vectors that simply reproduce the same typeface in any size you want where traditional type designers made subtle changes of weighting etc. for each different size font.

( I'm no expert on all this but in 1989 I produced some BBC programmes on printing and publishing so learnt stuff from a lot of people in the business. The thing all the tradtional printers regretted was how much of the sublety of their craft was being lost as digital typesetting took over. There was though no subtlety in a linotype machine!)

Edited May 3, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Schooner]

Last dribbles of resin squeezed out in the hopes of keeping the cure active until the new batch arrives tomo, inshallah. Bit cross about the wasted product from the split pot (and wasted money ordering more), but not sure what other acceptable options exist. Even if full to the brim in the middle, the canal is going to be showing historical levels at either end @WFPettigrew, don't you worry! 

 

@Graham T See you next...

 

Today, I have learned three a few things

 

1) Is the Board at risk of overthinking its logo? With the letters M and W to play with there must be a less symbolism-reliant totem design available. I'm going to start looking through period maker's marks as a jumping off point, all ideas and suggestions welcome as ever.

 

2) Can't remember

 

3) The EFE Beattie Well Tank isn't the absolute shower I thought:

and

are both lovely and both suggest suitable performance is attainable. 

 

So what?

 

So it might be a useful donor chassis; the sort of thing which might tempt one of the parish CAD-wizards to have a go at a freelance body kit for a small mid-Victorian mixed-traffic 2-4-0 at some point. With a tender for extra pickups and some smokebox/backhead space for extra weight, the weaknesses of the RTR model would be dealt with leaving the strengths of decent motor and gearing and the evocative running gear.

 

The Beattie's 5'7" drivers strike me as being suitably mixed trafficky. Compare

Too big.

 

vs.

Too small. So thought the E&MR anyway, whose bread and butter of fast through freight over a single track line (IIUC) would be familiar fare to the M&WJR men. Very very cute though. Sharp Stewart strikes again, even when it's a much-mucked-about back-to-back tank engine.

So those are the reasons I think it might be an okay freelance chassis donor. What are all the reasons it isn't?

 

That said, it was only today that I learned of @ianmaccormac's fine products, including beauties like the Slaughter Goods

in 4mm and 7mm. This might've been Learned Thing Two. So perhaps there's a good 2-4-0 out there that I have yet to stumble across?

 

On subject tenders, I've started to wonder what the M&W's requirements might have been. Doing a little light reading the other day (thanks to @kitpw for the link) I came to the general conclusion that a small 4 wheel tender might carry c.1000-1500 gallons of water and c.1.5-2 ton of coal? I appreciate it's a bit of a dark art, but on a wiggly but not too steep line hauling a 200-ton semi-fast I thought that might give a range above c.20 miles for water and c.50 miles for coal, as the crow flies? Do those numbers sound in the right ballpark to thems wot know these things?

 

In the 1850s the Union Steamship Co. perceived gap in the market for shipping Welsh steam coal to Southampton. By 1860 the gap had closed. What filled it? The dates don't quite reconcile - sometimes they don't - but it might be worth looking into the movement of coal coal by barge/trow from Wales to the M&WJR's Saul Dock, thence direct to So'ton via Salisbury. Not least to find out whose toes we're treading on!

 

In other news, I think I've also cracked the 'scenic storage' level of the 0-gauge fantasy garage-filler, but that's for another time/place. I've already taken up too much of your time with this post, and of mine with looking at characterful loco portraits :)

 

Ciao!

[lezz01]

The Kirtley 156 class is a cracking DF 2-4-0 it was a mixed traffic loco as well unlike the 800 class which was an express passenger. It looked good with a Johnson rebuild as well.

Regards Lez.

[Pacific231G]

8 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Nick

I have a few such articles from various model railway mags in my cuttings collection. I'm busy at the moment but rattle my cage if I haven't responded in about a week's time.

Typography can be a bit of a rabbit hole - you get into it and modelling time all goes on it. I spent ages analysing the type face (probably a stencil) used for the French station name boards that appeared usually enamelled white on a blue background on the ends of station buildings just to get it right for my own. 

As I know you know but others may not, for printed typestyles the problem is that digital versions are vectors that simply reproduce the same typeface in any size you want where traditional type designers made subtle changes of weighting etc. for each different size font.

( I'm no expert on all this but in 1989 I produced some BBC programmes on printing and publishing so learnt stuff from a lot of people in the business. The thing all the tradtional printers regretted was how much of the sublety of their craft was being lost as digital typesetting took over. There was though no subtlety in a linotype machine!)

I've found two articles about sign writing and typography. The typography article was in MRN 11-1965 and Signwriters' alphabets of the nineteenth century by Andrew Emmerson was in Model Railways October 1976. They'll still be in copyrght but I can PM them. The Emmerson article is probably the most relevant to you Nick so I'll PM that one first

[magmouse]

5 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

They'll still be in copyrght but I can PM them.

 

Brilliant - thank you. I can understand why traditional printers felt digital typesetting was a backwards step in the early days of it. Modern page layout software like InDesign give a great deal of flexibility for making all the little adjustments to letter spacing, and so on, so hopefully they now have the tools they want.

 

Nick.

[MrWolf]

Another company who might have supplied your 2-4-0 could be Kitson, such as this example from 1868.

 

https://museum.wales/industry/images/?action=show_item&item=4467

[Schooner]

Audience participation opportunity!

 

 

 

Option 1: just fill it up as-is and accept that the middle is super low and the ends super high

Option 2: fill it halfway, then chock one end so the waterline is kinda parallel with the edge from middle to the LHS. Once cured enough (but not too much1) level the layout and fill it the rest of the way, then chock the other side so the waterline is kinda parallel with the edge from the middle to the RHS?

 

Either is going to look a little bit funky. I think the boats will help disguise (rather than draw attention to) either about equally well. 

 

You have two hours to cast your vote!

Edited May 3, 2023 by Schooner
Clarity...hopefully.

[Schooner]

While I'm canvassing opinion, some MW-based totem ideas courtesy of Google. The first three could be outlines, as shown, or blocked out...?

 

 

 

 

Coach liveries are too far off to think about, but a monogram might well form part of locomotive livery. Something fairly restrained

(comparatively!) appeals more than some of the more elaborate options.

 

What do you think?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Schooner

[magmouse]

32 minutes ago, Schooner said:

You have two hours to cast your vote!

 

It's quite possible I haven't been paying enough attention (memories of high-velocity chalk being propelled in my direction by my Chemistry teacher) but I am unclear what the underlying issue is:

 

 - is it that the resin poured so far is flat, but the ground level of the layout is low in the middle?

 

 - or that the layout has somehow distorted since the resin was poured, so the resin is no longer flat?

 

 - or some other scenario I haven't thought of?

 

Nick.

[Schooner]

Actually a bit of both, but

 

5 minutes ago, magmouse said:

 

 - is it that the resin poured so far is flat, but the ground level of the layout is low in the middle?

 

is the primary concern. Apologies for clarity fail!

[lezz01]

The resin should find it's own lever like self levelling screed. If the layout wasn't level to start with then it would be out of whack somewhere. If it's different in the middle to the ends then it has sagged in the middle with the weight of the resin. You did brace the middle right?

Regards Lez. 

[Tortuga]

Has the resin fully set?

 

I like the fourth option for the totem, but with short horizontal lines / gaps across the middle of the two vertical ends, it’d be a touch more obvious it was an M overlaid on a W?

 

Either that or a simplified version of the coach / locomotive totem?

[Schooner]

21 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

If it's different in the middle to the ends then it has sagged in the middle with the weight of the resin.

Pre-resin - there's a photo somewhere up-thread of the ends showing lifting of the board at the ends. I think this is down to the repeated of ground cover powder, drenchings with dilute PVA and thin paint washes...and subsequent sanding when I didn't like the result!

 

So adequately braced? Yes and no...but mostly no, in the end!

 

27 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

The resin should find it's own lever like self levelling screed.

It does, it's just whether I can get that level to match each end and blend in the middle!

 

21 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Has the resin fully set?

Always working with a part-cured layer, so the chemical key is maintained. The lower levels should be fully cured by now.

 

 

[Tortuga]

I was going to ask if it’d be possible to rest the layout on a flat surface, put something under the centre and push down the ends, then if the last layer was still liquid enough, would it run toward the ends and self level as Lez said?

 

I don’t know as I’ve never worked with resin - apart from a disastrous attempt at using fibreglass, which I suspect doesn’t count!

[WFPettigrew]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

a monogram might well form part of locomotive livery. Something fairly restrained

 

Like this a lot!

 

What about a simple version of the interweaved letters (done as signwriter letters) for the wagons.  The other ones you'd found all look too modern to my eye as a style of logo, even allowing for some backdating in the process. 

 

I do still wonder whether your M&W (is it that now, rather an M&WJ?) wagons would have been most likely to have a simple cast plate. Bit like this - but obvs with M&WJR across the top not Furness Railway Company.  

 

 

Did we ever get to the bottom of when the first illiterate symbols were introduced?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[Tortuga]

I have to say, I initially thought you’d captured the “slumped quayside” look intentionally - is an overall view taken from the front of the layout possible? It’s a bit hard to decide how noticeable overall the difference in levels is from the three photos.

[magmouse]

10 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

I have to say, I initially thought you’d captured the “slumped quayside” look intentionally - is an overall view taken from the front of the layout possible? It’s a bit hard to decide how noticeable overall the difference in levels is from the three photos.

I’m with @Tortuga on this - unless it looks obviously wrong, I think you should lean in to the idea of the out of level quayside.

 

Nick.

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Option 1: just fill it up as-is and accept that the middle is super low and the ends super high

Option 2: fill it halfway, then chock one end so the waterline is kinda parallel with the edge from middle to the LHS. Once cured enough (but not too much1) level the layout and fill it the rest of the way, then chock the other side so the waterline is kinda parallel with the edge from the middle to the RHS?

 

Either is going to look a little bit funky. I think the boats will help disguise (rather than draw attention to) either about equally well. 

I'm with Tortuga with thinking that a slumped quayside is fine, but slumped water is not.

  So that's Option 1 I suppose.

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

While I'm canvassing opinion, some MW-based totem ideas courtesy of Google. The first three could be outlines, as shown, or blocked out...?

The first three look a bit too modern error era, but the fourth one could form the basis of a suitable illiterate mark/totem for goods wagons.

 

16 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

I do still wonder whether your M&W (is it that now, rather an M&WJ?) wagons would have been most likely to have a simple cast plate. Bit like this - but obvs with M&WJR across the top not Furness Railway Company.  

 

An oval cast plate on the solebars would be just the job in my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Coach liveries are too far off to think about, but a monogram might well form part of locomotive livery. Something fairly restrained

This monogram is dead corker and should definitely be a keeper.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Annie
Um.........

[lezz01]

2 hours ago, Schooner said:

Pre-resin - there's a photo somewhere up-thread of the ends showing lifting of the board at the ends. I think this is down to the repeated of ground cover powder, drenchings with dilute PVA and thin paint washes...and subsequent sanding when I didn't like the result!

 

 

 

 

Err well I'm guessing that you didn't seal the underside of your boards then. You you need to seal both sides of the baseboards before you start doing anything else to them as it stops swelling and or warping. A bit stable door and bolted but better late than never and now you know for next time.

Regards Lez.

[chuffinghell]

does this type of resin get hot as it cures causing the board to slightly warp maybe?

I don’t know what to suggest other than it’s quite feasible the quayside could have subsided over time as @Annie has already stated

 

I do like how it’s cured glass flat unlike mine 🙄

 

 

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Tortuga said:

...rest the layout on a flat surface, put something under the centre and push down the ends...

I did wonder about this when I discovered that in the world of Ingleford, the curvature of the Earth is concave! In the end I decided the risk to the existing scenic work was higher than any potential reward of making it flatter. Absolutely every element is on the wonk, I like to think it adds to the layout's rustic charm...!

 

2 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

I do still wonder whether your M&W (is it that now, rather an M&WJ?) wagons would have been most likely to have a simple cast plate.

Er, I think officially M&WJR, verbally/aesthetically as convenient M&W would be acceptable, just as S&D doesn't always refer to the Stockton and Darlington...?

 

Cast plates, yes I think that's probably right. It's not either/or with a totem/illiterate mark/logo though...or is it? I don't really know, mostly because I don't have a good answer to

2 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Did we ever get to the bottom of when the first illiterate symbols were introduced?

this, either. I have not found anything more than supposition on t'interwebs or (more to the point) on RMWeb as to who brought them about, why, when and for whose benefit/what purpose. I have formed an opinion, but it's based more on discounting poor ideas than discovering good ones!

 

I suppose my mind turned to 'illiterate marks' because in my head they form part of the picture of pre-1880s-ish traffic. In my mind's eye, I see unlettered wagons along with the un-cabbed locos and un-bogied coaches. I know there were exceptions from very early on (and early practices lingered well into the C20th in places) but the 'illiterate mark' forms part of the Victorian Railway archetype to me. Very open to correction though! 

 

My supposition is that the T&S probably wouldn't have bothered with any lettering, but increasing local traffic (requiring significant additional stock) and through traffic (potentially four other companies on a regular basis, with a chance of each of their 'friendly' companies' wagons turning up as foreigns very occasionally) would make the desire, if not need, for improved corporate branding among the Board of the M&WJR as they get their act together in 1870s...but my impression (which may well be incorrect, do tell) is that it's till too early to be going full letters, numbers, tares and loads painted on the side?

 

How on earth is that all one sentence? Sorry, I hope well all remembered to breathe!

 

4 hours ago, Tortuga said:

...is an overall view taken from the front of the layout possible?

No, in short! With the dam in place and all clamped up the front of the layout is totally masked so you can't see what's happening behind. Your question did help me pick an option though... :)

 

3 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I initially thought you’d captured the “slumped quayside” look intentionally

The intent was for about 5mm difference in 'quay' height between the barge scene on the Old Wharf (low) and the longboat scene in the middle (higher), with another 5mm height difference between that and the two scene on the New Wharf (highest)...but the 20mm or so of warping has rather trumped that!

 

3 hours ago, Annie said:

I'm with Tortuga with thinking that a slumped quayside is fine

I'm glad we were all in agreement with Plan A...sorry I had to deviate! Contact with the enemy reality and all that..

 

3 hours ago, magmouse said:

I think you should lean in to the idea of the out of level quayside.

In the end the height differences were simply too great. It raised some pretty fundamental questions about the canal's construction and navigation! I've given Slumpy Water™️ a go. The morning will tell how good an idea and how well executed it was. Place your bets now... :)

 

 

 

3 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

Like this a lot!

3 hours ago, Annie said:

This monogram is dead corker and should definitely be a keeper.

:)

 

2 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Err well I'm guessing that you didn't seal the underside of your boards then.

Plastic - 10mm foamcore. Not sure a lick of primer would've balanced out the copydex; 5mm foam underlay; more copydex; track; DAS; Sculptamold; 5kg in various stone, earth and chinchilla powders*; many many soakings in dilute PVA and paint (bet the foam loved that); power sanding; carrying it around tucked under an arm/leaning it against handy bits of masonry whilst opening doors etc...!

 

Slightly more seriously, I'll do a proper Wot I Learned once all is said and done, plenty of which will cover construction. The fundmental is that the board did not bow because of inadequate support in the middle, so much as inadequate restraint at the edges. It's a layout of bantamweight construction supporting what developed into a pretty solid middleweight! I could fit additional bracing, but I couldn't dismantle and re-fasten the whole thing.

 

Anything even slightly porous that stays still long enough within reach gets every visible surface painted on sight, something of a professional habit!

 

*I'm no expert, but I'd don't believe every substrate is powdered in the same way.

 

2 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

does this type of resin get hot as it cures causing the board to slightly warp maybe?

Really good question, and it was a concern (and one of the main factors behind choosing a) GlassCast and b) their <25mm-pour product with no intention to have any single pour deeper than 10mm.

 

Short answer is 'maybe', but I don't believe it gets hot enough for that (I've been checking, and have some relevant info on this to share in the next day or two), and certainly that's not what happened in this case.

 

2 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

I don’t know what to suggest...

I can recommend "If in doubt, try harder" in such situations 😎

 

2 hours ago, chuffinghell said:

I do like how it’s cured glass flat unlike mine

In all honesty, I think the surface of yours is absolutely perfect for what it represents. I walk along a canal most days, and that sort of glassy shimmer is spot on for the vast majority of days! 

 

If to appease the Gods of Flats and Straights you feel like making it mirror-smooth at some point, I'm pleased enough with the Glasscast 50 to suggest looking at their finishing/surfacing resin - I think it's only good for a couple mil's depth, but it is meant to give a particularly fine and glossy end result. I'm sure other similar products are available, but I've been impressed with the product and the service from these guys.

 

19 hours ago, lezz01 said:

The Kirtley 156 class is a cracking DF 2-4-0

12 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Another company who might have supplied your 2-4-0 could be Kitson

Not forgotten, I just need enough time to do these fine suggestion justice :)

 

À demain!

[BWsTrains]

That must be a record breaker in the world of multiple responses. I'm surprised the RMWeb servers didn't start emitting smoke.