Ingleford Wharf: 1870s canalside inglenook on the "M&WJR" in 00, and Victoria Quay: a 1900s WIP in 0

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, drduncan said:

Ah boilers, just a bit of tube…won’t be difficult etc etc…

 

it's not so much the boiler as the smokebox, chimney, dome, safety valve, skimpy weatherboard, and highly visible cab fittings...

 

13 minutes ago, drduncan said:

(tries to ignore the carcass of and reproachful looks from of what is supposed to be an original condition Dean Goods in the farthest recess of the workbench.)

 

I know the feeling...

 

14 minutes ago, drduncan said:

But as Adam has pointed out elsewhere  (on the Castle Aching thread, I think) it is a problem that as a community we need to get on top of for the sanity of our successors - and as a historian (but not of railways - got to keep personal and professional separate) it is something that vexes me…a lot.

 

A very distinguished historian, as you will find if you dig just a little. 

[drduncan]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A very distinguished historian, as you will find if you dig just a little. 

I know…

 

At the risk of thread hijack and being off topic, the two worst regarded areas of modern British history seem to be: in penultimate place, naval history (I can think of 5 named naval history posts outside of professional military education) in the UK…and in last place: railways, one named post (at York obv) and no more to the best of my knowledge. When the history of mass delusion and fantasy (aka history of magic) is more highly regarded then you should be seeing warning signs. Of course there are more naval and rail historians out there, just hiding in plain sight under different colours!

 

Vexation concluded.

 

Duncan

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

At the risk of thread hijack and being off topic

There's a topic?!

 

Historian by inclination and education ('tho ultimately archaeologist by training), seafarer by trade and railway enthusiast by night burgeoning interest, all the above seems relevant to me. I know we're meant to be all about the STEM nowadays, but I can't help thinking we're a good ten years too late to catch that wave. In our post-Chat GPT, disinformation-rife and politically polarized and intransient world, it's training in the Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences that are going to improve the quality of life and society... Annnnnnyway.

 

Trains.

 

Big ones.

 

With knobs  tenders on.

 

I agree with @WFPettigrew (and appreciate the external excuse!) that the T&SRy would have need of a tender engine or few by the mid-1870s as the route extends and traffic increases. What might these beasties look like?

 

Great Western Railway 0-6-0 '388' class or ‘Armstrong Goods’ No 397 at Bentley Heath with a ‘class J’ three lamp headcode (indicating a through goods or mineral train) circa 1910. 397 was in service 1866-1920.

 

Please can gwr.org do whatever they need to to get a https:// so that I can embed and share the fantastic pics and info here...thaaanks!

 

Glorious, and I definitely wouldn't turn one down, but I think too mighty for Ingleford Wharf's sharp curves (officially 4 chains, likely tighter at the apex) and short (c.125') exchange spur/headshunt.

 

Looking to the competition

Bonus photo, because it's great:

 

Yes, yes, yes..but probably still no. My gut says we need to be looking at independent loco manufacturers really, to go with our independent little line.

 

What about the GW's 322 class?

Built by Beyer Peacock, curved frames suggestive of the Kirtley Goods, but run by the GW alongside the Armstrong Goods.

GWR 0-6-0 No 351, a Class 322 also built 1866, is seen standing at the up platform at the South end of Snow Hill station.

 

A compromise to please all comers? 'fraid not, still too 'mainline'. But I do like B-P designs...

...a lot...

...and have already said elsewhere that it's one of very few models I would purchase on pre-order.

 

...but...

 

...is an 0-6-0 still too mighty for the wharf, if not the line?

 

The second of the three models I would dive for is an 0-4-0 of independent manufacture, built in the right period, with a long working life on a small but important goods-heavy line...

Hello :)

 

In fact, and allowing for the work still to be done on inventing uncovering the T&S' requirements during the period, 20 leads us towards another potential avenue woth exploring:

 

The way things are going I'd be less surprised to see Old Coppernob annouced RTR than either the B-P or S-S designs. I could be tempted, I think it could suit rather well.

 

Another manufacturer of interest would, I think, be one of the Bristol lot - Fox Walker in particular. They are distinctive and rather good-looking to my eye, be it 0-4-0ST

She so nearly made it to preservation. If she had I bet there'd be an RTR rendition in the works.

 

0-6-0ST

(any loco which also worked the London dock networks gets a bonus point, btw)

 

or even tender conversions.

...which I can't embed, but perhaps @phil_sutters might be persuaded to share in full if possible.

 

I think that's a fair spread to be thinking about for now, although there are the future concerns of mixed train and passenger workings...

...is giving me dangerous ideas...!

 

However, these will be to work a plan for another day

As if I could resist having a poke at the T&S terminus at Gloucester...although I think this we need revisted before long as the 'history' of the network develops.

 

Quick recap:

As it stands, the T&S, as seen in its dealings with the wharf at Ingleford has three modern (to the modelled period) locos:

 

The Nielson (wharf shunter)

(sorry, lazy image sourcing)

 

The Manning Wardle (wharf shunter)

(although to be detailed in line with Millwall Dock Company's Primus - MW 423/1873 - as per the excellent photo in Dave Marden's LDR Part 1)

 

The Beyer-Peacock (trip and 'mainline' workings)

...although Damocles would be casting a wary eye at the way acceptable running quality requirements are hanging over it...

 

Which is plenty to be getting on with. 

 

Honest.

 

How often must I repeat this before I believe it?

 

No time to find out now, the postie's just been...!

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In Kirtley's time, the universal locomotive dark green

..and GWR locos blue!

 

Sort of, anyway, and only the ones from Wolverhampton, but still :)

[WFPettigrew]

4 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Hello :)

😍

 

(Well I would say that wouldn't I?!)

 

And unusually large wheels by more recent standards for a little goods loco, and I can vouch from personal experience that once it's on the roll there's nothing it likes more than to pick up some speed and keep rolling.  

 

The Furness Sharpies, with no balance weights on the wheels to make things exciting for the crew, used to haul workmen's trains to the Barrow shipyard in their dotage, over 50 years old some of them, going non stop through Furness Abbey station at FIFTY MPH.   The riding was, err, notable apparently. 

 

And Sharps supplied railways all over.  And you can get a 3D printed kit including 00 chassis (or indeed EVEN IN 7MM TOO!!) for the FR/Cambrian/0-6-0 from @Knuckles and his Sparkshot Custom Creations (along with some other FR goodies that I also have my eye on, once I clear the current stash of wagon and carriage kits, plus the 0-6-2T kits I have waiting for me... ). 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

PS OK take the point about the timetravelling horsebox.  Hopefully someone will give it a good home. 

 

[Schooner]

Oh, and just 'cos it's the sort of thing I find helpful in other threads, the Neilson is the High Level Kit

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/neilson-contractors-engine

 

The MW is planned as the bodykit for the Hornby Pecket W4 chassis, designed by @TurboSnail and 🤞 to be produced by @BlueLightning via Oak Hill Works in the future. I'm glad it's being re-released after my last attempt yielded a Valuable Learning Opportunity...

 

The Beyer Peacock is of course the 00 Works LSWR 330. This was bought when the idea for a layout was just starting to take shape, as a statement of intent more than anything else. I like it for this sentimental reason, and as a locally designed and hand-built object which does laudable job of evoking the spirit of the protype ...but I can't say I'm in love with its detailing or running qualities. This last one is an issue which will need addressed at some point, but won't be a priority for a long time. When I reach that point, I suspect there might be viable alternatives to explore...

[Schooner]

4 minutes ago, WFPettigrew said:

And unusually large wheels by more recent standards for a little goods loco...

 

Actually, this is the only thing I can see counting against it. In practical terms the smaller the wheels on Ingleford locos the better (for that extra level of gearing for slow and controllable shunting), but like you say these things are only in comparison to contemporaries and it's not like we're trying to manoeuvre a Single around the wharf!

[WFPettigrew]

3 minutes ago, Schooner said:

counting against it

 

They're far from huge - the same as the Sharpie 0-6-0s at 4' 7.5". 

 

I only really mentioned it because when they had their second coming as steelworks shunters most, but not 20, were rewheeled with I think 4' wheels.   Having something coming into the wharf with bigger wheels from time to time would actually IMHO be a good counterpoint.  And although I can only see what others say rather than speak from personal experience yet, the likes of the High Level gearboxes would do include some very high ratios if you want very slow controlled speed albeit with more noise from the gearbox than you would get with a lower reduction and relying on the electronics to give fine motor control.

 

 

[TurboSnail]

8 minutes ago, Schooner said:

The MW is planned as the bodykit for the Hornby Pecket W4 chassis, designed by @TurboSnail and 🤞 to be produced by @BlueLightning via Oak Hill Works in the future. I'm glad it's being re-released after my last attempt yielded a Valuable Learning Opportunity...

 

Eek! That's a bit tragic

I'm in the process of making some minor detail upgrades on these. I started with the cabbed version, but if I know someone wants the open version I can bump that up the priority list a bit!

[Schooner]

7 hours ago, WFPettigrew said:

[D1s] used to haul workmen's trains to the Barrow shipyard in their dotage, over 50 years old some of them, going non stop through Furness Abbey station at FIFTY MPH.

Lawks! Mind you, you'd have had to hang on even tighter to 115...

 

Competition is particularly fierce for 0-6-0 goods engines, but for handsome little 2-4-0s for mixed traffic use Sharp, Stewart & Co are hard to top

 

 

7 hours ago, TurboSnail said:

I'm in the process of making some minor detail upgrades on these. I started with the cabbed version, but if I know someone wants the open version I can bump that up the priority list a bit!

Lovely news all round, but please no rush on my account - I need to finish at least one of the open jobs before getting distracted by something shiny and new!

[WFPettigrew]

9 minutes ago, Schooner said:

you'd have had to hang on even tighter to 115...

Hah!  But actually the crew didn't, they got off before it disappeared down a newly installed vertical traverser into the bowels of Lindal's Lowfield pit never to be seen again... *

 

And yes the 2-4-0s were rather lovely, whereas the closely related first Sharp 4-4-0s which were only stretched 2-4-0s have always, to my eye not had the same visual appeal.  I think for the second batch of larger 4-4-0s then yes Sharp Stewart were back on the money, lovely looking and highly useful locos. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

* Not that that stops folks from asking every five years when someone is going to dig it up and get it running again.  Like that'd be worth it when its spent over a century in flooded iron ore workings, it will be a pile of rust with a few bits of crushed copper thanks to the 200' of stone that was poured on top of it.  Oh and it's under the Furness mainline, and somehow I don't think Network Rail would be very keen to approve someone digging a massive hole at a location with, err, known subsidence issues!?!

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by WFPettigrew
oh, and another thing...

[drmditch]

Interesting!

I must look up my book on the FR (assuming that is the correct railway.)

Was the descent into the pit planned or unplanned?

[Schooner]

Last time, I swear...

...of what's become the go-to. Chinchilla dust + others as appropriate as a base; highlights with a wash of Petite Properties 'Wishy Washy Stone'; to be brought together and blended with Scale Model Scenery's 'Limestone' and 'China Clay' used as powders. What could possibly etc etc this time...!

 

First time

...bit big ain't they?!

[Schooner]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

Was the descent into the pit planned or unplanned?

 

V much the latter! Worth a quick Google at the least.

[WFPettigrew]

3 hours ago, drmditch said:

Interesting!

I must look up my book on the FR (assuming that is the correct railway.)

Was the descent into the pit planned or unplanned?

 

Very much unplanned as my learned friend has already commented, and yes it was on the Furness.  A 200' deep hole opened up in a matter of some minutes, and while the train and even the tender were saved, as well as the crew, 115 subsided into the depths.  Blame for this lay in the ore mining method of "top slicing" used in the Furness area resulting in caverns and instability for the layers of limestone above.  The ore mining area is today littered with depressions, some of them deep and permanently filled with water, from old workings.   

 

The challenge for the Furness was that the mainline passed right above an area riddled with workings at Lindal (for good reason, it was built to tap that ore traffic).  The Lowfield Pit was right next to the line, but it wasn't the only one that was.  I would attach a NLS map but that site appears to be down at present.   While Lowfield remained open, a miner was permanently employed in a tunnel below the FR mainline to look for any signs of movement, and later tell tales were put onto the nearby bridge under the railway for the same reason.  To this day trains on Network Rail are limited to 40mph right across the old mining area. 

 

Oh and it is widely claimed that the incident was the inspiration for the story of Thomas falling down the mine - which is quite possible given that Awrdy was a fan of the Furness, basing Edward on one of the second batch of 4-4-0s (the so called K2s) and siting the island of Sodor immediately off Barrow extending Walney out towards the Isle of Man. 

 

All the best

 

Neil 

 

 

[Schooner]

4mm - Ingleford

 

Well, a productive few days sees the yard filling up with the new/old stock

including a couple of modern foreigners lurking in the crowd, some better camoflaged than others.

 

Everything's just in the first go of primer ready for filling and fairing; some couplings are missing (pending an order for some more chain); no side chains yet (pending patience) etc...but I hope the impression is starting to form. Your thoughts?

 

12 down, with the coke wagon and three covered vehicles to go. Hoping to tick through one a day with some work on the layout itself in between. I think I want to add a rakelette of 3 x small ballast wagons, up the MR posse by a brace of three-planks  and add some 1- and 2- plank playmates for the GWR round-enders ('cos I likes 'em). A bit of this will depend on how the system development pans out, as that will impact 'reasonable' foreign traffic. As ever, opinions most welcome.

 

The carts are lined up for prospective drain coverings to be cut out in between the shafts + one at the intersection of the X in the stable yard (between stable and tye workshop shed). Might go for another drain about 5-6 wagons along (to the left) too. Does that sound/look about right? Not realistic I know, but we're all about the kind of lies that make you want to believe here in Fauxsetshire. Does it?

 

 

7mm - 'Victoria Wharf' perhaps?

 

There were actually 13 wagons built up over the last few days - this one whilst weathering a fit of pique at some of the more frustrating smallies:

Fun! Not an expensive kit, and it shows in the thumb-tack buffers (no, really) but a good base for many common wagons. It is well-cast and has info and parts for some decent detail work (which I've not done). Much discovered, 'tho like the lil'uns it's still WIP in a first coat of primer to highlight all the work which remains to be done. 

 

By and large I'm not unhappy with it - intended as a learning tool, that it's a functional wagon is a win! - but the corners were better before I tried, belatedly, to make them perfect. Cue rapid unscheduled disassembly, and a disassembler too cross to spend time cleaning off the old glue and re-fairing the mitred corners for the second attempt...

 

Anyway, box ticked. First wagon, and I'm no less into the opportunities the scale should afford :) Recommendations for follow-ups please, RTR or kit; LSWR or MR.

 

I'll have to pick up a van or two (LSWR and an S&DJR for 1529 maybe?) and at least one each of the Slater's MR wagon kits. I'd quite like a 'proper' parcels vehicle for variety and as an introduction to carriage kits (4-wheel LSWR lantern, 6-wheel MR clerestory), but have yet to explore ranges like D J Parkin's ABS selection, Taff Vale's mix (horsebox options in particular, from a quick glance) or of course the compendious Pre-Grouping Railways.

 

That said, I'm (obviously) already getting distracted by thoughts of weird and wonderful internal-use-only stock as well as some plausible oddities and excusable exports...but all in good time :)

 

Cheers all, have a good week

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Schooner
Now with extra added Cambrian

[Schooner]

Taking a little break from filing whitemetal to powder the layout to death; and a break from that to have a first go at

 

A brief illustrated history of the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames & Severn Railway and Associated Interests Company

(often abbreviated to the T&S, and referred to as "the Company"). The story you are about to hear is true. Only the needle should be changed, to protect the record.

 

 

1697

A plan is floated to make the small River Frome (this one) navigable from the Severn to the town of Stroud. The plan is to bring coal in and finished textiles out. Supported  by the textilers but opposed by the millers who were happy with the river just as it was, providing them cheap power and waste disposal.

 

 

1728

Engineer John Hore, on the back of the successful Kennet Navigation, suggests an 8-mile canal along the valley for the same purpose, and an Act of Parliament is passed in 1730 which, bizarrely, ignored all his suggestions and was again based on making the river navigable. Millers won concessions to set tariffs (forcing them unviably high) and effectively close the river to traffic for two months a year. Once again, plans stalled. Over the following decades, piecemeal work was carried out with new surveys and schemes making slow progress.

 

 

1779

The Navigation finally opens to traffic. Ten years later the Thames and Severn Canal opens as an extension of the Navigation through to the Thames at Inglesham, providing a through route from Bristol to London and one of the earliest routes from the major production hubs of the Midlands with the markets and export opportunities of London.

It became immediately clear that there were two major issues with the canal - Sapperton Tunnel suffered repeated cave-ins, and serious miscalculations left the summit level of the canal dry on a regular basis. However, 100-ton trows could work directly through to Brimscombe, and meet there with 60-ton barges for London and 30-longboats from the Midlands.

(from rareoldprints.com)

 

 

1810

The Kennet and Avon Canal opens, offering a much more direct - and available - route between the West and London and rendering the T&S useful only to local traffic. It, like the T&S was a 'wide canal', and several other Navigations linked to London trade, permitting passage of barges carrying around 60tons. However, the local demand along the Stroud valleys was increasing with new mills being built to take advantage not just of waterpower but also of steam engines for auxiliary equipment. 

Trows brought coal and stone in, timber and textiles out. The plan was finally viable, and profitable, albeit on a smaller scale than originally hoped, and the canal still suffered frequent closures.

 

 

1840s

Railway Mania sweeps through the land, and the Stroud Valleys are no exception. Railways were swiftly proposed - but only slowly developed - from Birmingham to Gloucester

 

Gloucester to Bristol (and thence Exeter and the South-West)

 

Cheltenham to Swindon via Gloucester

 

Many of these routes were proposed as a way of linking extraction to industry, industry to export, and providing cheap transport of stone to support the related building boom. These were traffic flows canal owners of the region knew well.

 

Not slow to spot the nugget of truth at the heart of the rhetoric swirling around these new railways, a collection of mill owners and industrialists of the Five Valleys formed a plan...

 

 

1843

A collective is formed of the more aggressive, charasmatic and far-sighted local business interests, aimed squarely at keeping cakey comestibles tightly in hand and liberally applied to face.

 

On the Board are representatives of the

• Stroudwater Navigation - essential to maintain cheap transport of heavy bulk goods of Forest coal, Chepstow stone, Gloucestershire timber and imported grain.
• some of the larger mill owners of the wider area - who saw a way to regain control of the river waters for power whilst improving access to coal, stone, imported raw materials and export opportunities. Grain for flour, wool for textiles and hardwood timber were the primary trades, but a broad industrial base to serve.
• the Thames and Severn Canal...who saw no reason why they should keep struggling to keep a soggy ditch commercially viable if they could take advantage of existing infrastructure to ride the zeitgeist to their fortunes.

Although not the first to propose a similar route, they were the first to make it a reality - leaning hard on their existing contacts to secure funding and existing infrastructure to move fast. The C&GWU was bought out of their financial troubles; the canal filled in from Stroud to Cirencester in preparation for a single-track line, and a start made on laying track from there South to Swindon, via Kemble. At the same time, the Act was passed to allow the new company to buy land adjacent to the Stroudwater as far as Stonehouse, and the B&GR.

 

 

1845

The line, having opened between Stroud and Cirecester the previous year, is functionally complete:

Seen above with principle stations and route lengths indicated. These are

• Stonehouse: Connection with the national network, via the now Midland Railway-owned B&GR
• Stroud: The first major population centre and, just to the East, transhipment dock and warehousing (at Ingleford)
• Brimscombe: The large flat area and local shipwright/engineering workforce enabled Brimscombe to be established as the primary railway and wagon works
• Cirencester: Second main population centre, main terminus and railway administrative headquarters
• Siddington Junction: where the two principle routes out of Cirencester split
• Swindon: Connection with the national network, via the GWR's main trunk route 

 

Research remains to be done on traffic quantities, stock and motive power of the line's early years but currently available evidence suggests the early years saw extensive use of ex-contractors locos for the many short trips between the railway facilities around Stroud

and light Bury locomotives for 'mainline' traffic between the primary termini.

 

In time, to these were added a handful of larger locomotives for the primary passenger services, offering rapid passage from Gloucester to Cirencester and Swindon

 

These tender engines were supplemented with Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 tank engines, unusually fitted with condensing gear. This might have been out of concern for the wellbeing of passengers enduring Sapperton Tunnel in the 3rd Class open carriages still to be found bulking out the secondary services...

...or might have been to do with latching on to one or more orders of similar design placed by the Metropolitan, Midland, LSW and LNW Railways...

 

1870s and on

The line saw immediate, if modest, commercial success. It had driven the Kennet and Avon almost out of business by providing a much faster route between the Midlands, West and London (much to the Board's satisfaction) and had fulfilled its early promise of linking the industrialised valleys around Stroud to cheaper supply and larger markets without costing them river use for power, and the town itself was still able to bring in cheap bargeloads of stone, deal and coal in Company boats.

Gloucester Dock, c.1880

 

This early return prompted almost immediate expansion, and by the 1870s the Company not only had its own small but well-equiped railway dock at Quedgely, between Gloucester Gas Works and Rea Tile and Brick Works, but also it's own small terminus in Gloucester itself; and plans for a mainline extension North from Cirencester to Cheltenham and South from Swindon to Salisbury (to include links with the LSWR); branches West from Cirencester to Tetbury via Kemble, and South from Stroud to Nailsworth already under way.

 

It is also believed the railway had a wholesale revision and rationalisation of rolling stock and motive power around this time, about which very little, sadly, is currently known. 

(actually the Thames and Medway)

 

Throughout the late 1800s and past the turn of the century the line was able to turn a healthy profit on the back of not just local goods and passenger services, but considerable tonnage of through traffic, providing as it did a very handy set of connections between three of largest national railway companies, and the ability to route traffic between the major ports of Liverpool, Bristol, Southampton and London by mutually-beneficial running agreements in addition to its own network.

 

Whilst there were dedicated passenger and freight workings, the junction-to-junction nature of the route lent itself to the extensive use of mixed trains - something which marked it out from its neighbours in both train formation and locomotive choice, with Sharp, Stewart & Co 0-4-0s, believed to be of similar type to those used by others as demonstrated by this preserved FR example...

...being joined by 2-4-0s...

...and Beyer Peacock 0-6-0s...

...to form the bulk of the stud during this period.

 

On tank engines, one railway employee of the period described the T&S collection as "eclectic" (private letter, author's collection), another as "an unreserved omnishambles" (Company Minutes, 13th April 1873 - it is hoped further research will uncover more from the official records from this period). Conversely, Mrs Bradshaw's Guide, 1891 mentions that one may be fortunate enough to catch sight of one of the "elderly yet charming shunting engines" whilst waiting for onward connection from Siddington Junction. The only known photographic evidence from around that time appears to show one of the railway's modernised BP 4-4-0...

...but surely the quoted comments can't refer to such handsome, reliable, if venerable, locomotives.

 

Perhaps it is one of these which has just been missed by the photographer here, in a photograph of a semi-fast departing Chalford towards Sapperton Tunnel and on to Swindon, c.1900.

 

It is also around this time that the Company looks to have been renamed to...oh, blast it, I've spilt tea on my notes!

 

 

1900s

Anyway, on and into the new century...although one would be hard-pushed to notice.

c.1900. It's thought the T&S quay, crane and warehouse is that at the far end, facing the camera. Note the rake of wagons stood by...what a pity they are too far away to positively identify.

 

Continuing to turn a profit, encouraging smart turnout and thorough maintenance, and without much direct competition, the Directors saw little need to invest heavily in updating the line or its stock. Traffic increases saw additions and replacements, but well into the 1900s some of the very earliest stock could be found loitering with intent at branch line termini. In this way, the line continued to quietly provide the backbone to the entire region's prosperity into the 1920s.

 

 

At Grouping the line was absorbed into the GWR and underwent major and much-needed modernisation...although once again in places you'd be hard-pushed to notice.

 

 

The line of course still exists in this updated form as the Golden Valley Line:

 

Testament to the vision of those early Board members.

 

 

Choo choo!

 

PS. In my early investigations into the line, I have found much information misattributed to other railway companies. Early documentary records often seem to conflate the line's early years with the Furness Railway, for example - bizarre, as this appears to be an entirely separate entity - and that covering the later years often confused the T&S with some mythical oddity referred to as the 'M&SWJR', about which I'm unable to find any verifiable information at all. It is possibly a fictional line some enthusiastic amateur has dreamt into existence to support their own fantasies, but at the moment it is hard to be sure what it is.

 

If readers come across any information or images they think might have been mislabelled in this way I would be grateful they brought it to the attention of the Parish, to enable a comprehensive history of the line of interest to be developed over time.

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Schooner
Premature capitulation

[brumtb]

16 hours ago, Schooner said:

Taking a little break from filing whitemetal to powder the layout to death; and a break from that to have a first go at

 

A brief illustrated history of the Stroudwater Navigation and Thames & Severn Railway and Associated Interests Company

(often abbreviated to the T&S, and referred to as "the Company"). The story you are about to hear is true. Only the needle should be changed, to protect the record.

 

 

1697

A plan is floated to make the small River Frome (this one) navigable from the Severn to the town of Stroud. The plan is to bring coal in and finished textiles out. Supported  by the textilers but opposed by the millers who were happy with the river just as it was, providing them cheap power and waste disposal.

 

 

1728

Engineer John Hore, on the back of the successful Kennet Navigation, suggests an 8-mile canal along the valley for the same purpose, and an Act of Parliament is passed in 1730 which, bizarrely, ignored all his suggestions and was again based on making the river navigable. Millers won concessions to set tariffs (forcing them unviably high) and effectively close the river to traffic for two months a year. Once again, plans stalled. Over the following decades, piecemeal work was carried out with new surveys and schemes making slow progress.

 

 

1779

The Navigation finally opens to traffic. Ten years later the Thames and Severn Canal opens as an extension of the Navigation through to the Thames at Inglesham, providing a through route from Bristol to London and one of the earliest routes from the major production hubs of the Midlands with the markets and export opportunities of London.

It became immediately clear that there were two major issues with the canal - Sapperton Tunnel suffered repeated cave-ins, and serious miscalculations left the summit level of the canal dry on a regular basis. However, 100-ton trows could work directly through to Brimscombe, and meet there with 60-ton barges for London and 30-longboats from the Midlands.

(from rareoldprints.com)

 

 

1810

The Kennet and Avon Canal opens, offering a much more direct - and available - route between the West and London and rendering the T&S useful only to local traffic. It, like the T&S was a 'wide canal', and several other Navigations linked to London trade, permitting passage of barges carrying around 60tons. However, the local demand along the Stroud valleys was increasing with new mills being built to take advantage not just of waterpower but also of steam engines for auxiliary equipment. 

Trows brought coal and stone in, timber and textiles out. The plan was finally viable, and profitable, albeit on a smaller scale than originally hoped, and the canal still suffered frequent closures.

 

 

1840s

Railway Mania sweeps through the land, and the Stroud Valleys are no exception. Railways were swiftly proposed - but only slowly developed - from Birmingham to Gloucester

 

Gloucester to Bristol (and thence Exeter and the South-West)

 

Cheltenham to Swindon via Gloucester

 

Many of these routes were proposed as a way of linking extraction to industry, industry to export, and providing cheap transport of stone to support the related building boom. These were traffic flows canal owners of the region knew well.

 

Not slow to spot the nugget of truth at the heart of the rhetoric swirling around these new railways, a collection of mill owners and industrialists of the Five Valleys formed a plan...

 

 

1843

A collective is formed of the more aggressive, charasmatic and far-sighted local business interests, aimed squarely at keeping cakey comestibles tightly in hand and liberally applied to face.

 

On the Board are representatives of the

• Stroudwater Navigation - essential to maintain cheap transport of heavy bulk goods of Forest coal, Chepstow stone, Gloucestershire timber and imported grain.
• some of the larger mill owners of the wider area - who saw a way to regain control of the river waters for power whilst improving access to coal, stone, imported raw materials and export opportunities. Grain for flour, wool for textiles and hardwood timber were the primary trades, but a broad industrial base to serve.
• the Thames and Severn Canal...who saw no reason why they should keep struggling to keep a soggy ditch commercially viable if they could take advantage of existing infrastructure to ride the zeitgeist to their fortunes.

Although not the first to propose a similar route, they were the first to make it a reality - leaning hard on their existing contacts to secure funding and existing infrastructure to move fast. The C&GWU was bought out of their financial troubles; the canal filled in from Stroud to Cirencester in preparation for a single-track line, and a start made on laying track from there South to Swindon, via Kemble. At the same time, the Act was passed to allow the new company to buy land adjacent to the Stroudwater as far as Stonehouse, and the B&GR.

 

 

1845

The line, having opened between Stroud and Cirecester the previous year, is functionally complete:

Seen above with principle stations and route lengths indicated. These are

• Stonehouse: Connection with the national network, via the now Midland Railway-owned B&GR
• Stroud: The first major population centre and, just to the East, transhipment dock and warehousing (at Ingleford)
• Brimscombe: The large flat area and local shipwright/engineering workforce enabled Brimscombe to be established as the primary railway and wagon works
• Cirencester: Second main population centre, main terminus and railway administrative headquarters
• Siddington Junction: where the two principle routes out of Cirencester split
• Swindon: Connection with the national network, via the GWR's main trunk route 

 

Research remains to be done on traffic quantities, stock and motive power of the line's early years but currently available evidence suggests the early years saw extensive use of ex-contractors locos for the many short trips between the railway facilities around Stroud

and light Bury locomotives for 'mainline' traffic between the primary termini.

 

In time, to these were added a handful of larger locomotives for the primary passenger services, offering rapid passage from Gloucester to Cirencester and Swindon

 

These tender engines were supplemented with Beyer Peacock 4-4-0 tank engines, unusually fitted with condensing gear. This might have been out of concern for the wellbeing of passengers enduring Sapperton Tunnel in the 3rd Class open carriages still to be found bulking out the secondary services...

...or might have been to do with latching on to one or more orders of similar design placed by the Metropolitan, Midland, LSW and LNW Railways...

 

1870s and on

The line saw immediate, if modest, commercial success. It had driven the Kennet and Avon almost out of business by providing a much faster route between the Midlands, West and London (much to the Board's satisfaction) and had fulfilled its early promise of linking the industrialised valleys around Stroud to cheaper supply and larger markets without costing them river use for power, and the town itself was still able to bring in cheap bargeloads of stone, deal and coal in Company boats.

Gloucester Dock, c.1880

 

This early return prompted almost immediate expansion, and by the 1870s the Company not only had its own small but well-equiped railway dock at Quedgely, between Gloucester Gas Works and Rea Tile and Brick Works, but also it's own small terminus in Gloucester itself; and plans for a mainline extension North from Cirencester to Cheltenham and South from Swindon to Salisbury (to include links with the LSWR); branches West from Cirencester to Tetbury via Kemble, and South from Stroud to Nailsworth already under way.

 

It is also believed the railway had a wholesale revision and rationalisation of rolling stock and motive power around this time, about which very little, sadly, is currently known. 

(actually the Thames and Medway)

 

Throughout the late 1800s and past the turn of the century the line was able to turn a healthy profit on the back of not just local goods and passenger services, but considerable tonnage of through traffic, providing as it did a very handy set of connections between three of largest national railway companies, and the ability to route traffic between the major ports of Liverpool, Bristol, Southampton and London by mutually-beneficial running agreements in addition to its own network.

 

Whilst there were dedicated passenger and freight workings, the junction-to-junction nature of the route lent itself to the extensive use of mixed trains - something which marked it out from its neighbours in both train formation and locomotive choice, with Sharp, Stewart & Co 0-4-0s, believed to be of similar type to those used by others as demonstrated by this preserved FR example...

...being joined by 2-4-0s...

...and Beyer Peacock 0-6-0s...

...to form the bulk of the stud during this period.

 

On tank engines, one railway employee of the period described the T&S collection as "eclectic" (private letter, author's collection), another as "an unreserved omnishambles" (Company Minutes, 13th April 1873 - it is hoped further research will uncover more from the official records from this period). Conversely, Mrs Bradshaw's Guide, 1891 mentions that one may be fortunate enough to catch sight of one of the "elderly yet charming shunting engines" whilst waiting for onward connection from Siddington Junction. The only known photographic evidence from around that time appears to show one of the railway's modernised BP 4-4-0...

...but surely the quoted comments can't refer to such handsome, reliable, if venerable, locomotives.

 

Perhaps it is one of these which has just been missed by the photographer here, in a photograph of a semi-fast departing Chalford towards Sapperton Tunnel and on to Swindon, c.1900.

 

It is also around this time that the Company looks to have been renamed to...oh, blast it, I've spilt tea on my notes!

 

 

1900s

Anyway, on and into the new century...although one would be hard-pushed to notice.

c.1900. It's thought the T&S quay, crane and warehouse is that at the far end, facing the camera. Note the rake of wagons stood by...what a pity they are too far away to positively identify.

 

Continuing to turn a profit, encouraging smart turnout and thorough maintenance, and without much direct competition, the Directors saw little need to invest heavily in updating the line or its stock. Traffic increases saw additions and replacements, but well into the 1900s some of the very earliest stock could be found loitering with intent at branch line termini. In this way, the line continued to quietly provide the backbone to the entire region's prosperity into the 1920s.

 

 

At Grouping the line was absorbed into the GWR and underwent major and much-needed modernisation...although once again in places you'd be hard-pushed to notice.

 

 

The line of course still exists in this updated form as the Golden Valley Line:

 

Testament to the vision of those early Board members.

 

 

Choo choo!

 

PS. In my early investigations into the line, I have found much information misattributed to other railway companies. Early documentary records often seem to conflate the line's early years with the Furness Railway, for example - bizarre, as this appears to be an entirely separate entity - and that covering the later years often confused the T&S with some mythical oddity referred to as the 'M&SWJR', about which I'm unable to find any verifiable information at all. It is possibly a fictional line some enthusiastic amateur has dreamt into existence to support their own fantasies, but at the moment it is hard to be sure what it is.

 

If readers come across any information or images they think might have been mislabelled in this way I would be grateful they brought it to the attention of the Parish, to enable a comprehensive history of the line of interest to be developed over time.

 

Excellent, a veritable "tour de force"!  I believe every word (or every word is believable).

Well done

Tony

[Northroader]

Perhaps the one element in the transport scene of the area that should have been included is the mighty Ship Canal.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/canal-and-river-network/gloucester-and-sharpness-canal

 

Saul Junction, the join with the Stroudwater Navigation has recently been fettled up, although Gloucester Docks themselves have been badly silted up, apparently because of the need for fresh drinking water by the denizens of Bristol.

[Mikkel]

13 hours ago, brumtb said:

Excellent, a veritable "tour de force"!  I believe every word (or every word is believable).

Well done

Tony

 

I can only agree. I'll have a go at inhaling whitemetal particles and chinchilla dust tomorow, clearly it is great for a creative high.

 

[Tortuga]

Finished reading through this thread earlier today and loved every minute. Will be following from now on!

 

(Will also be borrowing your recipe for the yard surface - looks to be an ideal match to that of my prototype!)

[Schooner]

On 13/04/2023 at 10:46, Northroader said:

Perhaps the one element in the transport scene of the area that should have been included is the mighty Ship Canal.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/canal-and-river-network/gloucester-and-sharpness-canal

 

Saul Junction, the join with the Stroudwater Navigation has recently been fettled up, although Gloucester Docks themselves have been badly silted up, apparently because of the need for fresh drinking water by the denizens of Bristol.

 

As in this recently-discovered preliminary sketch of the railway dock built at Saul Junction?

 

How did you know?!

 

We're here, about 3 1/2 miles on from where the old Bristol and Gloucester Railway crossed The Ocean, roughly where the dock branch departs our mainline

 

The dock looks ambitious - able to take vessels up to c.300' length and 35' beam, about 1500 ton. Think

SS Yeddo (1871), c.1400GT

 

through to

Mon Cousu (1912) c.1500GT

 

which would almost rival Sharpness Dock itself

although only one-third the size. It is therefore likely that it was actually constructed at a reduced scale, able to handle typical coaster of the period, 

of 350-500T like our usual touchstone SS Robin

 

 

On 13/04/2023 at 22:45, Tortuga said:

Finished reading through this thread earlier today and loved every minute.

Morale +1, thank you - and it's mutual!

 

On 13/04/2023 at 22:17, Mikkel said:

I'll have a go at inhaling whitemetal particles and chinchilla dust tomorow

Don't forget the spray-primer fumes. The cocktail really misses a bit of zing without it!

 

On 13/04/2023 at 09:09, brumtb said:

(or every word is believable)

Thank you, compliment taken! A long way to go before it's all watertight though, and external input is always welcome (like possible traffic routes from Birmingham... :) )

 

On 12/04/2023 at 16:59, Schooner said:

It is also around this time that the Company looks to have been renamed to...oh, blast it, I've spilt tea on my notes!

@drduncan has applied some professional rigour to this problem, and deciphered something which might just be made out to read:

 

The Mercian and Wessex Junction Railway Company

 

It's not totally certain, but certainly looks likely!

 

*sigh* Right, playtime over, back to filing whitemetal. I'm glad I'm really sure I want these coke and cattle wagons, otherwise this'd be a right pain...

Edited April 15, 2023 by Schooner

[Schooner]

10 hours ago, Schooner said:

Right, playtime over, back to filing whitemetal

Or, y'know, not...

 

Set-track points, and mostly 1st radius curves top, streamline smalls and 2nd radius bottom. There's potential lurking in them there hills sidings...

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Schooner

[Nick C]

That's got something of a Quai:87 vibe to it, with the random shape and track in all directions!

[Schooner]

On 17/04/2023 at 10:11, Nick C said:

That's got something of a Quai:87 vibe to it, with the random shape and track in all directions!

A rough plan not remotely worthy of such a comparison...but thanks, I'll take it!

 

The funny shape is to keep the reach under 3' and at least reference the shape of the surrounding field boundaries and waterways, just to prove to myself that the idea is fundamentally viable as a model as well as a bedtime story :)

 

4mm - Ingleford

Progress continues, but has slowed right down.

 

I can hope to clean up one strake of one side of one cattle wagon per evening's modelling time; a side a week or so. The coke wagon is likely to take at least as long. Then the brake van, and then done with the builds and I can start on the filling and fairing,  painting and weathering. I aim to do a proper write-up of the BV build, as it's the most involved and should cover the most ground, but let's not any of us hold our breath!

 

I thought I'd try sealing in the powders on layout with hairspray...sort of worked in that it's no longer dusty AF, but it's also near impossible to tell there was anything done in the first place, with the pre-powder colours coming through just as strongly as before. I'll try layering up with some more powders and see where that gets things, but after that it'll be on to Plan B C D E  - after that it'll be on to The Next Plan.

 

Hopeful fool that I am, I had cleaned the track ready for the layout to be powered up for the first time in about six months but that's now on hold still I've stopped wafting stone dust and spray adhesive about the place. Still, if it's good enough for Starship...

 

7mm - Vicky Quay

Just stashing some links for future reference so I can close all these open tabs!

 

We'd previously had a look at some rareity wagons which might show up on the quay from time to time. One of those was an early oil tank. Wondering what might be in it, I came across these guys  (good story, worth a read if you have a spare couple of minutes for a little light industrial history).

 

Nice logo, I thought

 

Nice product, I thought (patent awarded in 1882, nice and early)

 

Not quite what I had in mind, but all things considered nice wagon, I thought. Mind you, our little coaster would be getting its shaft lube (shhh, quiet you) in something more like these

...still, nice logo!

 

VicKerS are still hard at it, which is also pleasing

 

 

And then an unexpected potential option for traffic generation/management:

 

Hmmmm....