Electric, Hybrid and Alternative fuelled vehicles - News and Discussion

[Vistisen]

We have just reached a Milestone in Denmark, 10% of all registered cars are fully electric. 50% of all new cars sales are BEVs. One of the ways this has been achieved is to reduce the tax on BEVs to 0%. The tax on ICEs starts at 25% of the first £6000, 85% from £6000 to £20,000, and 150% of the value above £25,000!!! Now, of course the state is missing its taxes, so from 2025 the taxes will start to rise on BEVs. It will be interesting to see what happens to the sales figures.

Edited September 5 by Vistisen
corrected data

[Hobby]

Head in the sand governments! I bet the writers of Yes, Prime Minister would have had a field day with this shambles.

[idd15]

2 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Somehow, I suspect it would not be an issue to someone who lives "to the east of Paris" and has a laptop & a receptacle for cash.

Ooooh casting a few nasturtiums there GP! 😃 I couldn’t possibly comment! 😀😀😀

[Suzie]

I really should get a proper charger installed, but with the Leaf charging quite happily every day at 10A from a 13A socket, and the Tesla charging with the granny charger at 32A in a blue Commando socket (I don't have 3-phase for 48A charging via a red socket) I am getting by O.K.

 

It is a bit of a faf to check to see if there is enough solar generation to charge the cars, and only had to do one overnight charging session so far. I should probably sell the excess solar generation during the day and charge at night when it is cheaper than I can sell it for, but I cannot work out how to control the batteries yet to stop them discharging when it is cheap night rate.

[AndrueC]

19 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Charging at 2kw thats 3.5 hours or for an 'average' weeks driving it would have to spend a complete day on charge and there are plenty of days it goes nowhere.

Why would you only charge it once a week? If you charge it every day it sounds like it'd take about an hour even on a low charge.

[Neil]

We should remember that electricity already attracts tax in the form of VAT at 5% for domestic customers. If the aim is to encourage a switch from fossil fuels to electricity then there probably needs to be some sort of financial reward for doing so. Some would make the switch anyway because environmental issues matter significantly to them but to encourage mass movement away from fossil fuels I would argue that  it needs to made attractive enough for that to happen. I don't think that mileage charging for EVs (unless IC is similarly charged on top of fuel duty) would work in this context. For most there would need to be some financial pull to EVs.

 

Edited September 4 by Neil

[Hobby]

The issue for the government is loss of tax revenue with EVs. If they tax IC cars the same way (mileage) they'll be hitting the lower paid who can't afford an EV and would then be paying tax twice (fuel tax and mileage). That's too much of a vote loser. 

Edited September 4 by Hobby

[black and decker boy]

On 03/09/2024 at 10:52, Hroth said:

I can't see why the treasury can't treat the electricity suppliers as they currently do petrol stations and levy a charge based on the amount of electricity supplied for charging a vehicle.

 

It'd work very well for public charging points and through dedicated home charging points. People who try to charge through a 13amp plug would get what they deserve!

 

It's a pity we can't have "red electricity" - you can imagine the scene at a vehicle checkpoint - You got any RED in that battery???

 

But I have Solar with battery storage so can recharge my car without mains …..

[black and decker boy]

16 minutes ago, Hobby said:

The issue for the government is loss of tax revenue with EVs. If they tax IC cars the same way (mileage) they'll be hitting the lower paid who can't afford an EV and would then be paying tax twice (fuel tax and mileage). That's too much of a vote loser. 

The sane way to do this is scrap fuel duty and make all vehicles pay-per-Mile and set it so ICEs are cost neutral.

 

a bit like smart meters, it can be sold as ‘you can see what you spend now’

 

EVs could still be charged lower rates though even if the same as ICEs, EVs would likely still be more economic as fuel / running costs are a fraction of buying petrol 

 

in terms of taxing electricity, I can charge my EV without a wall charger and without a Smart meter. I can charge from solar when I want to. You can’t tax me if you don’t know I’m doing it.

 

If you hike tax on public chargers no one will use them as many are extortion already (and if you only use public chargers then your cost per mile will exceed ICE costs).

[Ron Ron Ron]

At some point in the transition away from ICE to electric vehicles, possibly once a tipping point has been passed, I anticipate there will be increasing cost disincentives to using ICE cars, to speed up the demise of the residual ICE fleet.

 

There would be less public pushback and complaint, once that tipping point is behind us; but we’re still a long way off from that.

 

In the short term, fuel duties are very likely to be increased, particularly in light of the shortfall in government finances.

Owners of petrol and diesel powered cars are going to feel the pinch, whatever types of taxation are introduced for the use of EV’s.

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

…….If you hike tax on public chargers no one will use them as many are extortion already (and if you only use public chargers then your cost per mile will exceed ICE costs).

Indeed.

The transition from ICE to electric vehicles can do without further damaging disincentives being put in the way.

 

 

.

[jjb1970]

This infographic for 2023 on the Wikipedia page for EV adoption by country is quite interesting. Of course it's Wikipedia but usually it's quite reliable for stuff like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

Scandanavia has probably the best infrastructure for the energy to charge the things, until the larger countrys are top of the pole its a pointless thing other than a money spinner, once we all sing from the same song sheet we might get somewhere.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

This infographic for 2023 on the Wikipedia page for EV adoption by country is quite interesting. Of course it's Wikipedia but usually it's quite reliable for stuff like this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

Some of those aren’t going to be helped by the new import tariffs being imposed on EVs made in China:

EU 36%
USA 100%
 

USA is very protectionist and TBH, very conservative as a nation. I think Europe embraces change much more readily.

 

UK size and urban density suits EVs perfectly , especially if the home charging where only in street parking exists can be solved.

 

i think the new Building Regs that see home solar on most new builds will also translate into homes being fitted with wall chargers as standard (cost to fit at build stage is negligible).

[johnofwessex]

43 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

............................

 

i think the new Building Regs that see home solar on most new builds will also translate into homes being fitted with wall chargers as standard (cost to fit at build stage is negligible).

 

UK Housebuilders still wont want to do it though

 

The installations on new houses dont seem to cover anything like as much of the roof as they could

 

[Chris M]

Is clean electricity generation and electricity distribution keeping up with EV sales? How will the generation and distribution network cope when we have to have electric central heating boilers in place of gas boilers? Questions that I'm not sure the government has been answering to date.

 

I did seriously consider an EV but the initial cost and high depreciation put me off. Driving electric is good and for now I am extremely happy with my Civic hybrid. Not quite as economical as a Toyota but faster and more fun. Incredibly good handling for a family car while being a very comfortable ride. Its also got a big boot.

[Hroth]

 

Oh lord, heatpumps.

Another expensive ecologically sound solution....

 

[Neil]

11 hours ago, Hobby said:

The issue for the government is loss of tax revenue with EVs. If they tax IC cars the same way (mileage) they'll be hitting the lower paid who can't afford an EV and would then be paying tax twice (fuel tax and mileage). That's too much of a vote loser. 

 

I agree, it's difficult to replace revenue, incentivise a move to cleaner energy and court political popularity.

 

On affordability. Last night I watched the C5 documentary on petrol vs electric. It was as underwhelming as I expected it to be but one figure stuck in my mind, that the average spend on a second hand car in the UK is £15,000. That's what I've just paid for an ex demonstrator Nissan Leaf with six miles on the clock, essentially a new car.  It's not like I scooped up the only bargain, there were plenty to choose from.

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Is clean electricity generation and electricity distribution keeping up with EV sales? How will the generation and distribution network cope when we have to have electric central heating boilers in place of gas boilers? Questions that I'm not sure the government has been answering to date. ....

 

I'm not sure generation and distribution need to fully keep up with EV sales. I would guess that most EV users either have or are looking at PV solar panels. Rather than a countrywide national network picking up all the increased load I predict that most homes switching to electric will become mini power stations.

[Neil]

8 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Oh lord, heatpumps.

Another expensive ecologically sound solution....

 

 

Like EVs I guess that the efficiency will improve and the price come down. No, I haven't got one ...... yet.

 

[Vistisen]

19 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Like EVs I guess that the efficiency will improve and the price come down. No, I haven't got one ...... yet.

 

I have installed a geothermal heat pump. 600 metres of underground pipes in the garden, and an heat exchanger that includes 180 lt hot water tank.  Electricity in 2020 has had until today an average price og 22p per Kw.  My heatpump uses during the summer months 2 kw (44p) a day.  It was installed in January . In febuary the highest single day used 60 Kw  ( it was about -8 degrees) the average for 2024 is 12 Kw  (£2.64)  . Before the heatpump was installed I used a wood pellet burner which cost in 2023 £5.64 per day.  

 

Geothermal systems are more expensive to install, but don't make any noise ( unlike) air based heatpumps, and the ground has a more constant temperature, so the ammount of electricity used is more stable.

[Jol Wilkinson]

31 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I have installed a geothermal heat pump. 600 metres of underground pipes in the garden, and an heat exchanger that includes 180 lt hot water tank.  Electricity in 2020 has had until today an average price og 22p per Kw.  My heatpump uses during the summer months 2 kw (44p) a day.  It was installed in January . In febuary the highest single day used 60 Kw  ( it was about -8 degrees) the average for 2024 is 12 Kw  (£2.64)  . Before the heatpump was installed I used a wood pellet burner which cost in 2023 £5.64 per day.  

 

Geothermal systems are more expensive to install, but don't make any noise ( unlike) air based heatpumps, and the ground has a more constant temperature, so the ammount of electricity used is more stable.

Friends have just had an "ecofriendly" house built. Despite having a large garden area they were advised not to have ground source heat pump heating but to use air pumps instead.

 

Concerning roof mounted solar panels, there have been a lot of new houses built where I live. It is still ongoing, 3500 planned in total (about a third increase on the existing housing stock) and very few built so far have roof mounted solar panels. On the estate built by Persimmon, it is probably about 5% -10%.  This is in East Anglia where very large solar farms on agricultural land are planned or already have been built. 

 

So it seems that solar is a great commercial proposition but of little interest to the large housebuilders.

[black and decker boy]

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

Is clean electricity generation and electricity distribution keeping up with EV sales? How will the generation and distribution network cope when we have to have electric central heating boilers in place of gas boilers? Questions that I'm not sure the government has been answering to date.

 

I did seriously consider an EV but the initial cost and high depreciation put me off. Driving electric is good and for now I am extremely happy with my Civic hybrid. Not quite as economical as a Toyota but faster and more fun. Incredibly good handling for a family car while being a very comfortable ride. Its also got a big boot.

National Grid are on record saying EV uptake/conversion is not a problem for the grid (based on average car use statistics, each car owner needs only 8kwh per day. That’s the same as using a power shower and main oven and those don’t overwhelm the grid every evening)

 

new build of all types now have to include solar pv = more solar generation every year going forward.

 

massive battery storage is being added to the grid and further huge offshore wind in under construction = better resilience for evening peak surges in demand

 

id be more worried by the power required for electrolysis (for green hydrogen)  and for data centres that are planned to be built.

[black and decker boy]

53 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Friends have just had an "ecofriendly" house built. Despite having a large garden area they were advised not to have ground source heat pump heating but to use air pumps instead.

 

Concerning roof mounted solar panels, there have been a lot of new houses built where I live. It is still ongoing, 3500 planned in total (about a third increase on the existing housing stock) and very few built so far have roof mounted solar panels. On the estate built by Persimmon, it is probably about 5% -10%.  This is in East Anglia where very large solar farms on agricultural land are planned or already have been built. 

 

So it seems that solar is a great commercial proposition but of little interest to the large housebuilders.

Not quite. The Building Reg changes were not retrospective so anything that had planning consent before a set date didnt need to comply. There was a further later date for buildings that had been started to be exempt too. 

 

The Housebuilders exploited this by installing footings once the downturn in sales happened. They can still build those out now to the old regs.

 

i would say the changes will be seen more significantly next year as new build numbers are predicted to rise again meaning new sites wholly compliant with new regs come in stream.

 

the regs apply equally to schools, offices, warehouses etc but solar bay be less obvious from a casual glances. Again, they are not retrospective.

[Hroth]

Just watched the C5 ICE vs EV programme.

 

All big cars, and the first "comparison" was ludicrous, who would go on a long trip in an EV without charging overnight. Starting at 20% charge? 🤣

Urban/City usage?  The example car was not what I'd call a city car.

The used car segment did mention smaller cars, but still edged towards bigger vehicles. 

 

Overall, there were a lot of big, heavy, expensive Mercedes examples too.

 

Not a helpful or impressive programme.