johnofwessex Posted September 2 Share Posted September 2 I have a 67 plate Kia Ceed Estate with a 1400 petrol engine. Its amazing what a holiday in Norfolk does for the fuel consumption! 55 mpg instead of 45 at home in Somerset 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 Inevitable I suppose and the EVs have all got the right equipment built in to manage it... https://news.sky.com/story/chancellor-rachel-reeves-urged-to-impose-pay-per-mile-scheme-on-electric-cars-13208793 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted September 3 Author Share Posted September 3 28 minutes ago, Hobby said: Inevitable I suppose and the EVs have all got the right equipment built in to manage it...…… ….as have an increasing number of ICE vehicles. We have a 2018 diesel and a 2021 petrol (neither with any sort of hybrid electrification), both of which are “online” and can report their positions to the manufacturer’s breakdown/rescue services and can be located in real time on the manufacturer’s car app’s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nick C Posted September 3 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3 2 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: ….as have an increasing number of ICE vehicles All of them, in fact, other than the very earliest! No need for any connectivity, just subtract the odometer reading from the last MOT from the one at this year's... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted September 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3 It has always been inevitable that once EV uptake increased the government would increasingly look to raise revenue from them to replace income lost from ICE vehicles. There some great incentive schemes in the early phase of EVs and PHEVs which were steadily reduced as sales increased. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 22 hours ago, AndrueC said: By the time I regained my freedom on the other side of Abergele the car was claiming mid 70s mpg. .... ..... But still - I don't intend to drive everywhere at walking pace 😄 Better watch out then, you'll be getting tickets through the post if you don't drive at walking pace in Abergele! Mind you, I suppose electrical vehicles can be set to traverse these super special zones at whatever is ultimately decreed to be the latest idea of a safe speed... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted September 3 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3 (edited) Ch5 are broadcasting a petrol v electric car comparison programme tomorrow (4th Sept) @ 8pm. It'll be interesting to see what factors they compare and what classes of vehicle the comparisons are biased towards. I suspect it will feature larger more expensive cars with lots of POWERRRR!!! Edited September 3 by Hroth change a word... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyPenguin Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 16 minutes ago, Nick C said: All of them, in fact, other than the very earliest! No need for any connectivity, just subtract the odometer reading from the last MOT from the one at this year's... Mechanical odometers are fairly easy enough to "adjust". Digital displays even easier (the actual miles covered usually remains stored in the main ECU). Good luck with enforcing that one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 23 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: ….as have an increasing number of ICE vehicles. Missed the point again... As the others have pointed out, and the article, it's all about income from tax (or lack of it with EVs), with ICE cars it's still easy just to tax fuel but not with EVs. Yes of course ICE also have the electronics, I didn't say they didn't, but it's EVs that are currently sidestepping the Government income streams which will need to be addressed and I was simply pointing out that they have the technology to do it! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 I would suggest that if we were going over to 'per mile' pricing there would need to be some sort of dedicated 'meter' installed in a vehicle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 Like the insurance "black box"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted September 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3 46 minutes ago, Nick C said: All of them, in fact, other than the very earliest! No need for any connectivity, just subtract the odometer reading from the last MOT from the one at this year's... About the only way of doing any direct distance-based pricing that I'd find acceptable. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 Especially if you know how to wind back the odometer and great if you have a car that doesn't need an MoT and get rid before it's first one is due... ;) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted September 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3 36 minutes ago, Hobby said: Especially if you know how to wind back the odometer and great if you have a car that doesn't need an MoT and get rid before it's first one is due... ;) Well there's the issue. We end up with "some people will abuse something, so we'll have to come up with a system that keeps an eye on all people all the time." I loathe that sentiment. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted September 3 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3 (edited) I can't see why the treasury can't treat the electricity suppliers as they currently do petrol stations and levy a charge based on the amount of electricity supplied for charging a vehicle. It'd work very well for public charging points and through dedicated home charging points. People who try to charge through a 13amp plug would get what they deserve! It's a pity we can't have "red electricity" - you can imagine the scene at a vehicle checkpoint - You got any RED in that battery??? Edited September 3 by Hroth Typo 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted September 3 Author Share Posted September 3 Motorists will be "squeezed" either way. There is an expectation that fuel duty will be increased in the October budget and again next year. . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted September 3 Author Share Posted September 3 27 minutes ago, Hroth said: .......t'd work very well for public charging points and through dedicated home charging points. People who try to charge through a 13amp plug would get what they deserve! ...... You'd need a separate means of metering installed in all properties with a charger. They can't convince more than half the country to have a Smart Meter installed ! You can charge from a 13 amp power socket, using the appropriate cable. It just takes ages this way. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 I wondered that as well, but charging per mile would be a lot easier. Also i suspect the electricity companies would want something for their input and so prices go up for everyone. Also how do you tax someone who "fills up" with electricity for £7 and getting a 300 mile range? A car with good mpg would use, say, 27l of petrol, tax on fuel is around 80p/l, so they are losing approx £21* in tax income on every charge, so you'd have to triple the price of electric, or tax it 300%. In some respects it does show how fair charging per mile is, the more you use it the more wear and tear on the roads, the more you pay. But not popular. * figures approximated!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hroth Posted September 3 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3 (edited) Provided pence per mile is not levied on a demand basis*. I can see that becoming a universal congestion charge, with the rate being doubled (at least) for journies made during notional "rush hour" or "peak" travel times, to screw extra out of the motorist or to persuade them to walk, cycle or use whatever public transport is available. @Ron Ron Ron - if you want a cheap tariff for charging your vehicle, most if not all suppliers require you to have a smart meter to access the tariff. * I'm not an Oasis fan, but the egregrious demand-led ticket pricing for their performances is a scandal and just price gouging. Edited September 3 by Hroth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 50 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: You'd need a separate means of metering installed in all properties with a charger. They can't convince more than half the country to have a Smart Meter installed ! You can charge from a 13 amp power socket, using the appropriate cable. It just takes ages this way. . I drive 8000 miles a year Mostly not on long journeys Thats 21 miles a day. Assuming I get 3 miles/kwh which is pretty average I believe for an electric car thats 7kwh/day Charging at 2kw thats 3.5 hours or for an 'average' weeks driving it would have to spend a complete day on charge and there are plenty of days it goes nowhere. OK its not going to work say when I go on holiday once or twice a year but its not bad the rest of the time 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 4 hours ago, Reorte said: About the only way of doing any direct distance-based pricing that I'd find acceptable. I suspect you might not get the choice...(other than not driving of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted September 3 Author Share Posted September 3 2 hours ago, Hroth said: @Ron Ron Ron - if you want a cheap tariff for charging your vehicle, most if not all suppliers require you to have a smart meter to access the tariff. Can the Smart Meter differentiate between electricity being fed into a car (via a wall charger) ...and all the other electricity being consumed for other domestic purposes? (I don't know, as I don't have a Smart Meter or an EV charging point). The other thing that would scupper the idea of taxing home charging, is "Vehicle to Load" (VTL) and Vehicle to Home (VTH). Also, what about use of vehicles on private property, rather than the public highway? Electricity used to charge an electric car, may not necessarily be used for travel on public roads. VTL and VTH allows that electricity to be fed back for use elsewhere...e.g. powering appliances at or away from home (such as camping, DIY etc), or acting as storage to power, or supplement the power in a domestic home. There's been much talk of using EV's as domestic storage batteries, instead of, or to supplement dedicated home battery storage (i.e. Powerwalls). . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idd15 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 40 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said: Can the Smart Meter differentiate between electricity being fed into a car (via a wall charger) ...and all the other electricity being consumed for other domestic purposes? (I don't know, as I don't have a Smart Meter or an EV charging point). . No is the short answer! 🙂 You would need to “meter” the charger in the property to do this. Not impossible, for the smart tariff I am on I effectively hand control of the charging to Octopus. Through the app I tell Octopus how much charge I want and when I want the car charged by. Octopus then sort out a charging schedule to optimise costs and load on the grid and tell my Zappi charger when to start and stop charging. Works a charm. 🙂 A further complication to add to your list is that many EV drivers charge their car using their solar panels, as I am doing right now as I type this. HTH idd 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idd15 Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 6 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said: Mechanical odometers are fairly easy enough to "adjust". Digital displays even easier (the actual miles covered usually remains stored in the main ECU). Good luck with enforcing that one. Most modern cars use CAN-BUS to control any number of ECUs for brakes, wipers sensors etc. It is usual to “tie” those ECUs together using a security protocol that includes the cars mileage. So if you replace the screen on your 50K mile Tesla with one from a wrecked 25K Tesla you will effectively “brick” the vehicle and it will not start. You would need the appropriate software and codes to update the other ECUs. Not impossible of course, but a bit of a faff. Then there’s also the fact that Tesla and many other manufacturers use Telematics extensively and record vehicle mileage… HTH idd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyPenguin Posted September 3 Share Posted September 3 2 hours ago, idd15 said: Most modern cars use CAN-BUS to control any number of ECUs for brakes, wipers sensors etc. It is usual to “tie” those ECUs together using a security protocol that includes the cars mileage. So if you replace the screen on your 50K mile Tesla with one from a wrecked 25K Tesla you will effectively “brick” the vehicle and it will not start. You would need the appropriate software and codes to update the other ECUs. Not impossible of course, but a bit of a faff. Then there’s also the fact that Tesla and many other manufacturers use Telematics extensively and record vehicle mileage… HTH idd Somehow, I suspect it would not be an issue to someone who lives "to the east of Paris" and has a laptop & a receptacle for cash. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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