Cardiff-Bristol- Portsmouth

[br2975]

From the 4/5/1970 - 2/5/1971 WTT and associated CWN

.

10:20 SO Portsmouth - Cardiff and 14:55 return;

formed as:-

BSK+CK+SO+SO+BSK+SO+SO

.

11:20 SO Portsmouth - Cardiff and 16:35 return;

formed as:-

BSK+SO+SO+RMB+CK+BSK

.

Both ran SO 13/06/1970 - 05/09/1970

.

Both diagrammed for an Eastleigh Cl.33/0 (but Cl.33/1 substitutions were quite common).

.

Brian R

[Gwiwer]

A change of headcode at Southampton suggests the loco ran round there rather than coming via Chandlersford in that year.

 

The Bournemouth - Weymouth section of these trains would appear in the relevant SR regional timetable or Great Britain table 158 or 159 in more recent years. It was not shown on the Cardiff - Portsmouth / Weymouth table because in the station bank Weymouth appeared " before" Bournemouth because all other trains reached it via Yeovil. It wasn't shown on the cross-country tables which became GBTT table 51 because these trains were not a part of that service. In 1974 that was a paltry three trains between Poole / Southampton and York / Newcastle.

 

In the forthcoming summer 2016 timetable the SWT Waterloo - Yeovil - Weymouth trains are only shown as far as Pen Mill with footnotes listing stops to Weymouth. They don't appear on the Bristol - Weymouth table nor the Waterloo - Southampton -Weymouth table. The inconsistencies continue.

[Gwiwer]

Hi Andrew

Yes I looked for that in the Waterloo-Weymouth timetable (close its table 159), and it's not there, so it is puzzling why there is no data regarding it working through to Weymouth in any of the public timetables.

 

Many thanks to all who have posted regarding these services, I've certainly learnt a lot the last week on them, and a picture emerging of how I can model them.

 

Regarding the 4TC movements - unusually I noted a pair heading West through Bristol Parkway in 1976, On What service it was working, goodness knows.

 

Neil

 

 

It's possible the stops west of Bournemouth were set down only meaning there was no reason to show them on the old table 159 which was basically Bournemouth - Weymouth with only the principal stops farther east show.  When table 159 was in use Table 158 was Waterloo - Bournemouth but is now Waterloo - Weymouth in order to show the complete service in one place.  If that were the case then the corresponding 12.24 Weymouth - Cardiff would have pick-up only stops to Bournemouth (possibly even to Southampton) and therefore not be shown as it was not available to local passengers in that area.  

 

The 8TC move through Parkway might have been a diversion or possibly an excursion.  As the units were in effect standard Mk1 stock and devoid of pick-up shoes / beams (which are out-of-gauge off the SR routes) they could go virtually anywhere.  If driven from the leading TC cab in push-pull mode an SR driver (or former SR driver with retained traction knowledge) with a route conductor would be required; if hauled by a locomotive they were treated as normal hauled coaching stock and required a red tail lamp as we discussed above.

[jonny777]

Here is a 4-TC leaving Temple Meads, without appearing to have a tail lamp.

 

 

 

 

But this was much later, on 12th December 1986.

[chrisf]

The red patches visible in the headcode box acted as the tail lamp. 

 

Chris

[jonny777]

Yes I know.

 

But I was making a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment to post 93, which included this -

 

 

"TC units worked very seldom at this time but on the very odd time that they did (before Sprinters) the loco would have to be on the leading end entailing a run round at Cardiff and, of course, a run round at Bristol TM! The shunters at Temple Meads always insisted on putting a tail lamp on the TC unit even when red blinds were being shown!

 

Roger"

[4630]

.

Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[stovepipe]

Terrific information Stovepipe thanks for posting.

The timetables I have now cover May 1972-May 1975 and all have the SO Cardiff-Bournemouth service listed. If it did work through to Weymouth as a service it could easily be added into the timetable. Was this therefore an ECS working (Bournemouth-Weymouth) to balance stock? There was another different Saturday Cardiff-Weymouth via Yeovil at 0905, so I'm doubtful if the 0953 train conveyed passengers through to Weymouth. The 0953 Bournemouth SO service incidentally stopped from 5 October 1974.

Neil

 

There's no mention of an ECS working in the CWN, just the 09.53 Cardiff to Weymouth arriving 15.03. I see that a later departure from Cardiff at 10.53 and an earlier arrival at Weymouth 14.48 can be achieved by changing onto the 12.08 Bristol - Weymouth at Bath Spa. I suspect that is why the full journey of the 09.53 is not shown.

 

You might also be interested to know that there are some hand written notes on the CWN for 1974/5 for additional LH trains between Cardiff and Taunton/Weston. They ran from 06/01/75 UFN as follows:

 

06.00 Cardiff - Taunton due 08.23 formation BSK+CK+3TSO

08.40 Taunton - Bristol due 09.47

11.14 Bristol - Cardiff due 12.05

12.40 Cardiff - Weston due 14.03

14.30 Weston - Cardiff due 16.05

16.20 SO Cardiff - Bristol due 17.15

18.00 SO Bristol - Taunton due 19.18

20.10 SO Taunton - Cardiff due 22.20

17.45 SX Cardiff - Bristol due 18.46

23.08 SX Bristol - Cardiff due 00.03

 

I suppose these would have been DMU workings in previous years?

[jonny777]

Yes, I remember Swindon class 120s working the Taunton - Cardiff services for a while, but not sure for how long.

[Rivercider]

 

You might also be interested to know that there are some hand written notes on the CWN for 1974/5 for additional LH trains between Cardiff and Taunton/Weston. They ran from 06/01/75 UFN as follows:

 

06.00 Cardiff - Taunton due 08.23 formation BSK+CK+3TSO

08.40 Taunton - Bristol due 09.47

11.14 Bristol - Cardiff due 12.05

12.40 Cardiff - Weston due 14.03

14.30 Weston - Cardiff due 16.05

16.20 SO Cardiff - Bristol due 17.15

18.00 SO Bristol - Taunton due 19.18

20.10 SO Taunton - Cardiff due 22.20

17.45 SX Cardiff - Bristol due 18.46

23.08 SX Bristol - Cardiff due 00.03

 

I suppose these would have been DMU workings in previous years?

I have some WTTs from 1976, most of these trains run in the same timings, or within five minutes, and are shown as DMU, with one exception.

2C60 23.08 Bristol Temple Meads - Cardiff (00.03) is shown as loco hauled, timing ref 6, two spades (four or six wheel vehicles must NOT be conveyed).

 

It was not unusual over the years for a booked DMU diagram from Cardiff/Bristol to Weston/Taunton to be covered by loco and coaches for a period of weeks or even months. At Weston and Taunton as well as run-round facilities there was normally a trained passenger shunter already available. 

 

cheers

[Shed]

Thanks for another interesting and helpful thread.

I want to make a rake of mk1 coaches for a Cardiff Pompey train.

[Downendian]

Returning to this old thread, I've just seen (but can't post due to copyright) a photo of a class 207 at Cardiff Central, looks like late 1980s. I'm still intrigued by the Weymouth/Bournemouth to Cardiff services and whether the class 207 I saw at Filton junction in 1974 heading west was on this service, and what was its routine formation.

Neil

[Gwiwer]

The summer Saturday dated Cardiff - Bournemouth / Weymouth train was a loco-hauled duty. To avoid a run-round at busy Southampton (which was not suffixed Central at the time) the train was routed via Chandlers Ford. However it sometimes did run round at Southampton possibly because the driver did not sign the other route.

 

Bristol - Yeovil - Weymouth trains were a mixed bag. Mostly WR DMU sets there were also some loco-hauled workings and very occasional SR unit workings. Whether or not a 207 ever did honours I don’t know but they did roam west from their traditional home on the Oxted lines late in their lives.

[Downendian]

Thanks Rick

I'm particularly interested in the period between the Hymeks (1972/3) and class 31s (1976/77) being rostered for the CF-Pompey services. I mentioned earlier that I thought in the period 1974-75 seeing 9 car DMUs probably on this service. This has emerged a 6-car DMU formation of class 120

https://www.railcar.co.uk/images/1223

I know that class 123s were used too. So I'm pretty certain those 9 car trains I saw daily in 1974/5 were Pompey trains.

With regards to the Cardiff-Weymouth what loco would be used in the same period? I know that Westerns (or more commonly class 47s) were used on Weymouth-Bristols (I rode behind D1068 on this service in summer 1975). But the Cardiff-weymouths did not call at Temple Meads passing through Rhubarb curve at Dr Days junction.

Neil

Edited November 14, 2018 by Downendian

[Gwiwer]

I have seen, or have seen photos of, classes 31, 33, 35, 42 and 47 on Weymouth duties.

 

Class 123 briefly worked Cardiff - Portsmouth turns though not normally as 9-car formations. They were 4-car units at the time so 4-car or 8-car would have been used and is what I saw for myself.

 

9-car DMU formations did reach Weymouth using any of classes 116-120 usually in mix’n’match rakes.

[Gwiwer]

Afterthought. I myself have had 46 haulage on a Bristol - Pompey just once. I seem to recall they very occasionally turned up at Weymouth also.

[Andy Kirkham]

 I seem to recall they very occasionally turned up at Weymouth also.

As seen here - much to my disappointment as the object of my expedition had been to photograph a Western at Maiden Newton

 

OCT 74B 15. The 13:00 Weymouth-Birmingham enters Maiden Newton hauled by a Peak, September 1974 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[The Johnster]

The class 123 4-car Swindon Inter-City sets were used on Cardiff-Portsmouth services (and Cardiff-Derby) when they were new in 1962 and this continued until about 1968/9.  2x 4 car sets were the usual formation, with one being a Buffet set.

[The Stationmaster]

The class 123 4-car Swindon Inter-City sets were used on Cardiff-Portsmouth services (and Cardiff-Derby) when they were new in 1962 and this continued until about 1968/9.  2x 4 car sets were the usual formation, with one being a Buffet set.

 

Indeed they were - as it was one of the routes they were built for.  Very unreliable according to tales around at the time so they were transferred to the London Division and used on various commuter services to replace loco hauled stock plus various off peak workings.

[The Johnster]

They were the first vehicles I saw with B4 bogies, a Swindon design I believe, though there was a chocolate/cream mk1 set for the Bristolian that was the actual first use of these.  My first ride on one was in October of '63, Cardiff-Tamworth to visit an aunt when I was 11.  A friendly Gloucester driver who relieved the Canton man there took pity on the child huddled behind the door in the corridor of the DMSK, and I got a cab ride the rest of the way!

 

IIRC the reliability issues were to do with overheating in the gearboxes.  They were geared differently to the 'normal' dmus, and could run at 75mph as opposed to the usual 70.  The smaller wheels of the B4 bogies must have had an effect on the final drive ratio, but I always got the impression that they were much slower off the mark and more hindered by gradients than the 119s or 120s, even when they were reduced in their later lives to 3 car sets.  I worked one back from Hereford to Cardiff in the 70s on a spectacularly wet Sunday night, and remember being impressed by how watertight the cab windows were.  But you could almost feel the rain physically holding the train back.  They were a bit 'weak'.

 

Which was a shame, as they were very well finished inside, and comfortable and quiet compared to the cross countrys.  Had they been a bit faster and more powerful, they could have been a very useful tool for secondary main line work, a 'near miss'.  

[pc3163]

I've seen several mentions in this thread of DMUs on the Cardiff/Bristol to Portsmouth line in 60s and early 70s, but what if any would've run on these services between 1977 & 1985? If they were used how common were they and what liveries would they have carried? Or was it all 31s, 33s, 35s & 205s?

[Gwiwer]

Mostly loco-hauled with the occasional 119 or 205 until the 155s arrived.  

[pc3163]

12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Mostly loco-hauled with the occasional 119 or 205 until the 155s arrived.  

Thanks. Presumably any 119s would've been in BR Blue or Blue/Grey during that period not Regional Railways?

[brushman47544]

9 hours ago, pc3163 said:

Thanks. Presumably any 119s would've been in BR Blue or Blue/Grey during that period not Regional Railways?

Yes, blue/grey. No 119s made it into Regional Railways livery. They were redeployed to Reading-Gatwick/Tonbridge services (and given NSE livery) by then.

[Gwiwer]

12 hours ago, pc3163 said:

Thanks. Presumably any 119s would've been in BR Blue or Blue/Grey during that period not Regional Railways?

Blue / grey in that period although blue somewhat earlier and green before then.  I once saw a mixed unit at Salisbury with a green coach and two blue ones.  Guess which was cleaner and smarter?