Cardiff-Bristol- Portsmouth

[toffee]

Just found this topic so a bit late, what can I add ? Clear memories of seeing a green 65er at Newport High St around 1966 arriving from Pompy on a Saterday so that must have been one on these. Having a 'thing' for 65ers at the time I would try as much as possible to see the Pompy trains around 70-73 and have many snap shots of them arriving at Cardiff. The first few years it was always 2 of them on the 10.20 and 11.20 ex PH and they usually had a good crowd waiting for them to arrive as they were always a prime target for the cabbing mobs! My disgust when in 72? We were reduced to only one 65 turning up the other train being turned over to a Hymek ( because it went into TM and rather than runaround it was just a loco change ?). As said they mostly went round the curve at Dr Days and first stop was Bath. You must also remember that we also got a fair number of Merrymakers coming up from down South around then with Cromptons on which might confuse any linesiders, like wise one Sat a pair of Hastings units turned up on a Hastings -Swansea away day, mega cops for the locals ! I never saw a 3H unit in Cardiff on these but did see them in Bristol ( as far as they usually went ?). Likewise the use of 33/1 and 4TC was I usually down to engineering work on Sundays bringing diverts into play, I saw a couple of these on a Sunday. I don't remember the 123s working these trains only on the Crewe's around the mid 70s before going to 25s but they did work down from London whilst still L sets on summer Sat Padd- (Swansea ?) reliefs which I used to see going past Canton from the bridge. Nobody seems to have mentioned the use of the XP64 set on these trains in the early 80s? ( sorry my records arn't up to it ) wish I taken more notes !

[The Stationmaster]

That is pretty definite evidence that they did not. 

 

So, what did they work in their second visit to Cardiff?  Pembroke Dock services?  Crewe/Manchester trains?

 

It is difficult to find many photos of them at all between the RG and BG years. Maybe they just spent most of the time in store?

 

That I don't know jonny.  They were still very firmly on London Division work in 1971 (I travelled to and from Paddington on one everyday as they'd replaced loco hauled stock on our branch's through London trains) but then I was shipped off to South Wales, where I spent most of my time well away from the SWML, before coming back to England (to Westbury) in 1974.  I didn't get back to the London area until the end of 1978 and by then they had gone.

 

Railcar.co.uk shows them as going from Reading to 'South Wales' (presumably Canton?) 'for working secondary services, such as to Bristol' but doesn't give a date.  It adds that they went to Hull in June 1977 after being stored at Barry (which I suspect was probably for only around a month - but that's a guess based on service change dates rather than anything else).

[Gwiwer]

So we have records of a handful of early Mk2s in the Pompey - Cardiff rakes towards the end which I am not surprised by.  The brakes seemed to be the first to change over so maybe the age and condition of the Mk1 BSK fleet played a part.  Or perhaps in the great cascade of all things the early Mk 2 brakes were simply the first to be replaced by air-cons.  The rakes dwindled from (usually) six to five after the buffet cars were withdrawn and then sometimes to four as we have seen.  Sometimes they were five by included a BG meaning only four seated vehicles were provided but with no other brake in the set.  And to address the question above, answered also with observations, yes Mk1s were running up until 1988 when the 155s took over.  By that time some were in pretty average condition having been run for several more years than intended.  

 

The 123s working Cardiff - Birminghams before going to the Trans-pennine route does ring a bell with me though it's not a route I am too familiar with and I never saw them there.  

[br2975]

This one certainly did.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/daffy-dub/7454520160/in/album-72157649913702350/

 

Seems to have suffered the Cardiff City FC treatment though.

Sorry to disappoint - but the local version at the time suggested the unit was trashed whilst stored in the 'garden sidings' at the rear of Canton TMD, as I believe there were no regular rostered duties for the Inter-City units at that time; hence their being parked up.

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A number of vandal attacks took place on the 'garden sidings' over the years, with several DMU cars gutted on one occasion.

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As a Cardiff City supporter then (and still) - there were no Cardiff City 'footexes' at that time using such units, and the fixture list(s) for 77-78 and early 78-79 seem to bear this out.

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I did miss the 4-2 drubbing by 'The Gas' on 2nd. September, 1978 but had a good excuse, as did a number of other City 'faces' - namely my wedding day !

.

Brian R

Edited May 12, 2016 by br2975

[br2975]

Splott Road Bridge, Cardiff - 27th. October, 1976

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The Class 31 hauled Inter-City unit was a service train, heading for Cardiff.

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Unfortunately I don't have any details of the service.

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Brian R

[br2975]

Taken during October 1976, at Cardiff Central

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Unfortunately, at this time I have no notes to hand.

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Brian R

Edited May 12, 2016 by br2975

[br2975]

...................... I never saw a 3H unit in Cardiff on these but did see them in Bristol ( as far as they usually went ?).

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I rode a 3H from Newport - Cardiff, Boxing Day 1969 (but more likely 1970).

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It was on a Pompey - Cardiff working, and was running 90 down.

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I had a hell of a job convincing everyone.

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Brian R

[br2975]

A few more Cardiff - Bristol - Pompey lists from the (now) distant past.

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30th. August,1980

47240+4298+25562+21192+5033+5023+14033+24888+5044; Swansea - Pompey Relief. Cardiff, Plat.2 arr. 10:32 dep. 10:37

47256+26096+26136+26112+26065+15820+35401+26062+26068+26077+24719; Swansea - Pompey. Cardiff, Plat.1 arr.10:38 dep. 10:45

31401+16206+5030+5175+25954+35255+81395; 07:46 Pompey - Cardiff arr.11:35 (15 down).

33023+4376+4065+3919+4076+4436+13393+13400+21265+1806; 07:20 Clapham Jct - Swansea. Cardiff, Plat.3 arr.11:17 dep.11:35 behind 37189

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13th. September, 1980

31424+5175+5030+16206+80836+35255+25954

31117+26073+5023+14033+5044+25935+5180+34672

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Other sets seen that month included:-

31420+25413+25945+81168+26202+15755+25820 Cdff-Portsmouth Hbr.

31421+25692+25940+81012+26100+26083+21185 Portsmouth Hbr-Cardiff.

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Brian R

[Gwiwer]

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I rode a 3H from Newport - Cardiff, Boxing Day 1969 (but more likely 1970).

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It was on a Pompey - Cardiff working, and was running 90 down.

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I had a hell of a job convincing everyone.

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Brian R

 

 

You'd have a job convincing me in 1969/70.  I don't think the WR crews signed them that early meaning SR driver and guard with conductor would have been required.  Boxing Day services brought forth some very unusual workings at times.  This would be among them.  

[toffee]

Sure of that on Boxing Day Bri ? Hadn't nipped into the Great Western had you :-) on a more serious note, wasn't that reported in one of the monthlies, I seem to remember that one, trouble was their were so many wind up merchants around, present company excepted of course !!

Did you ever see the inter-city's on the Brums ? I have no memory's of that happening, just on the Crewe's and the Cheltenham's, Bristols were in the hands of the cross -countries sets both Swindons and Gloucesters .

 

John

[Downendian]

I did see a class 123 (two pairs) on a Swansea-Paddington relief, in 1975/6 passing through Bristol Parkway, so that may be a source of some Cardiff spottings, I have the precise date but will need to look it up.

Neil

[Downendian]

I've just had the 1974/5 all line timetable delivered. A quick look reveals it was much the same as the previous year, but no weekday Cardiff-Portsmouth just Saturday and Sunday. The Cardiff-Bournemouth service remained.

Neil

[toffee]

Swansea -Padd reliefs, yes that's what I saw a few dated Saturdays, a pair of them going past Canton. Bournmouths ? Hymeks, then Duffs/31s if my memory is correct.

I've had a look in a few notes and I've found the following,

1976.

33116 with 403 /401 Sun Sep 5th,

33101 with 426/417 Sun Sep 12th

33106 with 426/415 Sun Sep 19th

 

In my head head these were 33 and TC because of engineering work entailing a number of reverses, at least that's what I was told at the time. Sorry I don't have arrival time.

John.

[br2975]

You'd have a job convincing me in 1969/70.  I don't think the WR crews signed them that early meaning SR driver and guard with conductor would have been required.  Boxing Day services brought forth some very unusual workings at times.  This would be among them.

The line under 1104 was destined to exist in solitude for several months, until a Mystery Trip from Cardiff to Eastbourne, and a side jolly to Brighton bagged a couple more Thumpers.

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Brian R

[Downendian]

Swansea -Padd reliefs, yes that's what I saw a few dated Saturdays, a pair of them going past Canton. Bournmouths ? Hymeks, then Duffs/31s if my memory is correct.

I've had a look in a few notes and I've found the following,

1976.

33116 with 403 /401 Sun Sep 5th,

33101 with 426/417 Sun Sep 12th

33106 with 426/415 Sun Sep 19th

In my head head these were 33 and TC because of engineering work entailing a number of reverses, at least that's what I was told at the time. Sorry I don't have arrival time.

John.

Ah we're getting there. Need a WTT to identify the Cardiff-Bournemouth and return reporting codes. There are plenty of shots of Hymeks at Bournemouth - some were used on trains to BNS and the North. Here's D7032 in 1971 on 1O26.

http://www.railblue.com/pages/Photo%20Galleries/David%20Mant%20Collection/DMC_D7032_BT_230271.htm

If loco hauled then certainly would explain a balancing move.

Neil

[brushman47544]

The line under 1104 was destined to exist in solitude for several months, until a Mystery Trip from Cardiff to Eastbourne, and a side jolly to Brighton bagged a couple more Thumpers..Brian R

That's interesting; I'd never heard the 2-car units 1119-1122 being called "Hastings" before. Since they also worked "over the Alps" I'm surprised they received a line-specific name.

[The Stationmaster]

The line under 1104 was destined to exist in solitude for several months, until a Mystery Trip from Cardiff to Eastbourne, and a side jolly to Brighton bagged a couple more Thumpers.

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Brian R

 

Better not show you that lot in my Combined - might cause a little bit of jealousy (assuming you liked the things?)

[buritonhampshire]

Swansea -Padd reliefs, yes that's what I saw a few dated Saturdays, a pair of them going past Canton. Bournmouths ? Hymeks, then Duffs/31s if my memory is correct.

I've had a look in a few notes and I've found the following,

1976.

33116 with 403 /401 Sun Sep 5th,

33101 with 426/417 Sun Sep 12th

33106 with 426/415 Sun Sep 19th

 

In my head head these were 33 and TC because of engineering work entailing a number of reverses, at least that's what I was told at the time. Sorry I don't have arrival time.

John.

I'm intrigued by the shots of 33/1's on TC units from the early days (1970's) but tend to think some may have bypassed Bristol TM and gone via Dr. Days Junction or whatever it was called.

 

Certainly in the Eighties (as had been noted) the usual load was 5 Mk Ones with a Crompton as far as Bristol TM from Portsmouth (where the Fratton crew came off) and after Bristol and Cardiff men "signed" the Cromptons sometimes continuing to Cardiff otherwise a Brush 4 was the usual rostered traction. Once Sprinters (as noted 155 then 156 then 158) replaced loco haul Fratton and Cardiff men generally worked end to end with a change of ends at Temple Meads.

 

TC units worked very seldom at this time but on the very odd time that they did (before Sprinters) the loco would have to be on the leading end entailing a run round at Cardiff and, of course, a run round at Bristol TM! The shunters at Temple Meads always insisted on putting a tail lamp on the TC unit even when red blinds were being shown!

 

Roger

[Gwiwer]

 

The shunters at Temple Meads always insisted on putting a tail lamp on the TC unit even when red blinds were being shown!

 

 

Quite right too.  Not all train crew or signalmen were trained to accept double red blanks as the end-of-train marker so a tail lamp should have been attached anywhere off the SR.  

 

 

 

That's interesting; I'd never heard the 2-car units 1119-1122 being called "Hastings" before.

 

Ian Allan didn't get everything right.  Three of those four were usually rostered to Southampton - Alton duties and the fourth to Hastings - Ashford.  So far as I know they were known as "Hampshires" on both routes.  So, come to that, were the Berkshire units which retained their seated second class compartment.  No distinction was ever made between "genuine" Hampshire units based at Eastleigh and those allocated to Selhurst for the Oxted routes in Sussex.

[stovepipe]

OK I've gone back and photographed a relevant page of the timetable as evidence for you Gwiwer. It is rather self explanatory but illustrates the point that some of your statements on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Bournemouth services in 1973/4 are incorrect.

1. The Bournemouth service was not a Weymouth train, those were separate services and see the timetable which shows both Cardiff service trains here.

2. There were also Cardiff-Portsmouth services that did not call at Bristol, but did at Bath Spa. They were different services to the Temple Meads ones. Again timetable shows this.

3. You state that 3H DEMUs were not permitted through the Severn tunnel. Although not frequent they did do so in this era, I actually saw one on its way to Cardiff in 1974/5 and there are reports from other Bristol spotters of the same in the identical timeframe. If there was a ban I'm sure Mike (stationmaster) would have mentioned it too.

4. Unfortunately my spotting notes are bereft of details regarding service trains. Those 9-car formations were regular in 1973-1975 but ceased around 1976/7, and were not Thumpers but I suspect classes 116/117 or 119/120s. I don't think they were Merrymakers, but reiterate I'm very interested in what stock formed the Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff-Bournemouth trains in the attached timetable. I don't have any information as to whether these 9 car sets were Portsmouth services, but are possible candidates.

I've just won a 1974/5 timetable and will be interested in what happened to these trains the next year.

Neil

image.jpeg

 

You can get quite a lot of info from the carriage working books, but there isn't a complete match with your timetable:

 

The loco-hauled trains listed are:

08.22 Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour - a 9 Mk1 set working back at 12.49

09.53 Cardiff - Weymouth (not Bournemouth) a 10 Mk1 set off a Swansea working and worked back from Weymouth at 16.25.

10.53 Cardiff - Portsmouth H - a 10 Mk1 set, working back at 16.20

09.05 Cardiff - Weymouth isn't listed so I assume a DMU or DEMU

 

The Bournemouth train is a mystery, I can see no LH arrivals around 14.04 and none of the LH departures from Bournemouth are towards Bristol. Some of the inter-regional LH stock is kept at Weymouth to work back the following Saturday however.

 

Coming back to Cardiff there were in addition to the above:

10.18 SO Portsmouth H - Cardiff, a 10 Mk1 set off Westbury at 6.30, worked back to Bristol at 17.45.

12.24 SO Weymouth - Cardiff, another 10 Mk1 rake but mixed ER/WR stock from Bristol at 8.32

 

The validity is May 73 to May 74.

[Gwiwer]

 

the 09.53 Cardiff - Bournemouth would reach Weymouth around 15.10 and form the 16.25 Cardiff via Yeovil arr. 19.45. 

Class 47 plus 8 Mk1s is what's in my memory and somewhat vague notes for those trains.

 

The loco-hauled trains listed are:

09.53 Cardiff - Weymouth (not Bournemouth) a 10 Mk1 set off a Swansea working and worked back from Weymouth at 16.25.

 

 

one set working 08.32 Bristol - Weymouth arr 10.47 dep. around 12.25 towards Bournemouth 13.30 and to Cardiff 17.43.

 

12.24 SO Weymouth - Cardiff, another 10 Mk1 rake but mixed ER/WR stock from Bristol at 8.32

 

I think we have a match here and can say that the trains did in fact run through to and from Weymouth as I recalled.  Precisely how many coaches were used might have varied according to availability or even predicted traffic levels from time to time.

 

Thank you for the supporting information.  That's all stuff I used to have but which had to be disposed of (donated to a heritage group for fundraising) in order to move down under.

[Downendian]

You can get quite a lot of info from the carriage working books, but there isn't a complete match with your timetable:

 

The loco-hauled trains listed are:

08.22 Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour - a 9 Mk1 set working back at 12.49

09.53 Cardiff - Weymouth (not Bournemouth) a 10 Mk1 set off a Swansea working and worked back from Weymouth at 16.25.

10.53 Cardiff - Portsmouth H - a 10 Mk1 set, working back at 16.20

09.05 Cardiff - Weymouth isn't listed so I assume a DMU or DEMU

 

The Bournemouth train is a mystery, I can see no LH arrivals around 14.04 and none of the LH departures from Bournemouth are towards Bristol. Some of the inter-regional LH stock is kept at Weymouth to work back the following Saturday however.

 

Coming back to Cardiff there were in addition to the above:

10.18 SO Portsmouth H - Cardiff, a 10 Mk1 set off Westbury at 6.30, worked back to Bristol at 17.45.

12.24 SO Weymouth - Cardiff, another 10 Mk1 rake but mixed ER/WR stock from Bristol at 8.32

 

The validity is May 73 to May 74.

Terrific information Stovepipe thanks for posting.

The timetables I have now cover May 1972-May 1975 and all have the SO Cardiff-Bournemouth service listed. If it did work through to Weymouth as a service it could easily be added into the timetable. Was this therefore an ECS working (Bournemouth-Weymouth) to balance stock? There was another different Saturday Cardiff-Weymouth via Yeovil at 0905, so I'm doubtful if the 0953 train conveyed passengers through to Weymouth. The 0953 Bournemouth SO service incidentally stopped from 5 October 1974.

Neil

Edited May 13, 2016 by Downendian

[4630]

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Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[brushman47544]

Terrific information Stovepipe thanks for posting.

The timetables I have now cover May 1972-May 1975 and all have the SO Cardiff-Bournemouth service listed. If it did work through to Weymouth as a service it could easily be added into the timetable. Was this therefore an ECS working (Bournemouth-Weymouth) to balance stock? There was another different Saturday Cardiff-Weymouth via Yeovil at 0905, so I'm doubtful if the 0953 train conveyed passengers through to Weymouth. The 0953 Bournemouth SO service incidentally stopped from 5 October 1974.

Neil

 

I agree with Gwiwer's analysis in his post immediately above yours, that Stovepipe's carriage working 09.53 Cardiff-Weymouth is your SO Cardiff - Bournemouth which continued through to Weymouth - I presume the carriage working wouldn't say the route taken so could just as easily have been via Bournemouth as Yeovil.

 

Has anyone looked at the Waterloo-Weymouth timetable pages (table 158 IIRC?). Cross country trains to/from Weymouth and Poole to the Midlands via Basingstoke used to be included so if the Bournemouth-Weymouth section of the Cardiff train was in service, it should appear there.

[Downendian]

Hi Andrew

Yes I looked for that in the Waterloo-Weymouth timetable (close its table 159), and it's not there, so it is puzzling why there is no data regarding it working through to Weymouth in any of the public timetables.

 

Many thanks to all who have posted regarding these services, I've certainly learnt a lot the last week on them, and a picture emerging of how I can model them.

 

Regarding the 4TC movements - unusually I noted a pair heading West through Bristol Parkway in 1976, On What service it was working, goodness knows.

 

Neil