Cardiff-Bristol- Portsmouth

[Andy Kirkham]

Lovely pic Andy, but I think the date is incorrect with 1976. The 33/1 looks to be pre-TOPs? They were all renumbered by then.

Neil

Thanks Neil. I can get a bit hazy with dates when they're not Kodachrome and so don't have a date stamp. If it's not 1976 then I think it must be 1975. Is that compatible with the state of the loco?

[Downendian]

I think they were all renumbered by 1974 Andy, so it would be before that. There was one service in 1973/4 that was timetabled to stop at both Temple Meads and Cardiff post Hymek. I think this would be it from yours and Gwiwer's descriptions.

Neil

[Gwiwer]

 

 

OK I've gone back and photographed a relevant page of the timetable as evidence for you Gwiwer. It is rather self explanatory but illustrates the point that some of your statements on Cardiff-Portsmouth/Bournemouth services in 1973/4 are incorrect.

 

Thank you.  I also have that same timetable in my collection.  I am happy to agree to disagree on certain points but the absence of anything showing the Cardiff - Bournemouth trains proceeding through to / from Weymouth is inconclusive.  I don't have the matching SR timetable to confirm.  Footnotes were then and are still inconsistent in this regard; it isn't always possible to determine the origin and final destination of trains by relying on them when the entire journey is not covered on a single table or does not fit into a standard pattern.

 

A thought.  By use of this same table if the services did in fact work to / from Weymouth then the diagram would fit with one set working 08.32 Bristol - Weymouth arr 10.47 dep. around 12.25 towards Bournemouth 13.30 and to Cardiff 17.43.  The other, on the 09.53 Cardiff - Bournemouth would reach Weymouth around 15.10 and form the 16.25 Cardiff via Yeovil arr. 19.45.  If they terminated at Bournemouth how was the stock worked with no balancing services?

 

Yes, not everything called at Bristol TM in those days and as I mentioned this was probably to avoid congestion there on summer Saturdays and probably also because there were considered to be enough trains already on the main routes. Track bashers would actively seek out such workings even though many were obvious from the public timetable.  The route via Chandlersford wasn't obvious and only the extra 10 minutes running time between Salisbury and Southampton is a clue.  

 

Class 47 plus 8 Mk1s is what's in my memory and somewhat vague notes for those trains.

 

 

 

Yes, but then they went back again in the mid 70s for about 18 months.

 

The photo at Bristol shows a number of interesting points.  It shows the half-unit which the WR regularly turned out with these sets splitting them into two two-car sections.  Being basically Mk1 coaches but wired for DMU operation there was no difficulty in making the connection between driving end and intermediate end as can just be seen between cars 2 and 3.  Peak-hour commuter services to and from Paddington were often formed likewise.  On one occasion I even noted both half-sets of one unit in adjacent platforms bound, respectively for Oxford and Newbury!  I bet that flummoxed the spotters relying on set numbers!!!  The L700-series came later in their lives as they were first numbered in the 500-series but (in common at the time with other WR DMUs) without a divisional prefix letter.  Did they ever carry a Cardiff Division C-prefix?   

 

I wasn't aware that they had returned to the Portsmouth run and have no records of this.  Such workings might have been on the WR duties alongside the 3H turns and deputising for the more common class 120.  The set at Bristol appears to have been very recently repainted suggesting also that it might be an ex-works running-in turn.  

 

For the majority of the Bristol - Portsmouth trains in that 1973-4 timetable I'd suggest it was 3H or class 120 (with 117 on occasions) as they are timed to serve intermediate SR stations and run at the 2-hour intervals I suggested in para3 of my earlier post.  Just compare the timings of the 12.49 and 12.56 departures off Porstmouth Harbour on summer Saturdays.  The 12.49 is a Cardiff via Dr. Day's and not Temple Meads.  It gets 45 minutes from P&S to Southampton allowing for a Fareham stop while the 12.56 takes 53 minutes and allows for Cosham, Portchester, Fareham, Netley, Woolston and St. Denys stops.  From Southampton t Salisbury the 12.49 gets 28 minutes which equates to the former non-stop Hymek timings while the 12.56 takes 52 minutes which would include some stand time at Salisbury and allows for stops at Redbridge, Romsey, Dunbridge and Dean as was the standard pattern at the time.

 

The direct Cardiff workings don't appear in my notes.  The 12.49 is the return working of the 08.20 ex Cardiff and forms a WR out-and-back diagram with enough time at Portsmouth for a loco-release shunt.  That was a pretty smart move which Fratton men were well versed in.  Loco-hauled train runs up to the harbour; 09 follows it up and drags the stock out onto the up road but inside the section signal; loco is released to the down road and waits outside the home signal; shunter replaces stock in the platform and trundles back to Fratton; loco drops on to the stock.  All done inside 5 minutes on a good day.  I suspect in the mid 70s that would have been a Cardiff-based 47 and a six-set of Mk1 stock though it seems we cannot discount the class 123s.  My notes do show and I clearly recall because it was so unusual, that on one occasion a Cardiff - Portsmouth turned up at Salisbury behind a 46.  With only 5 on this working the run to Southampton was uncommonly fast and with speeds which I estimated from a 1/5-second stopwatch to be in the low 90s at times.  What my notes don't show is which train and date.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Gwiwer

[Andy Kirkham]

I think they were all renumbered by 1974 Andy, so it would be before that. There was one service in 1973/4 that was timetabled to stop at both Temple Meads and Cardiff post Hymek. I think this would be it from yours and Gwiwer's descriptions.

Neil

Well that's left me a bit flummoxed. I might have to reconsider the chronology of a number of my pictures. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Andy Kirkham

[talisman56]

It could be as late as 1976, as IIRC some of the early TOPS renumbered ones carried the TOPS number at both ends of the side, until Eastleigh got a gentle reminder of the proper placement of running numbers under TOPS. The angle of the photo precludes judgement of whether the numbers are four digits or five with a small space between the second and third, but it could be a solution for the current confusion...

[br2975]

Well that's left me a bit flummoxed. I might have to reconsider the chronology of a number of my pictures. 

 

Probably too early for your photo Andy, but:-

 

"..................Cl.33/1 and 2x 4TC workings were rostered for Sundays during November, 1971 but did not run on either 07/11/71 or 14/11/71 but on 21/11/71 6536 + 404 + 407 worked the diagram, and 6520 + 408 + 402 the following Sunday, 28/11/71..............."

 

That's not to say such combo's didn't run in later years.

.

Brian R

[Downendian]

I found this on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/yCxRYy

33 118 with 4TCs 416 and 423 at Temple Meads 18/9/76. So they did work that year, but doesn't resolve the 33/1 in Andy's photo as it had just a single number by then, as have all photos I've seen of 33/1s following renumbering.

Neil

Edited May 9, 2016 by Downendian

[Andy Kirkham]

jhn/87

Probably too early for your photo Andy, but:-

 

"..................Cl.33/1 and 2x 4TC workings were rostered for Sundays during November, 1971 but did not run on either 07/11/71 or 14/11/71 but on 21/11/71 6536 + 404 + 407 worked the diagram, and 6520 + 408 + 402 the following Sunday, 28/11/71..............."

 

That's not to say such combo's didn't run in later years.

.

Brian/ R

Yes, my photo couldn't be as early as that because I didn't obtain the camera with which I took it until July 1973. I'm almost certain I took nothing but Kodachrome slides that summer, but in 1974 I did experiment with cheaper brands, so it could possibly have been that year.

[Downendian]

I think early 1974 is a possibility, and will look at the renumbering dates. I remember seeing at least one 33/0 that hadn't been renumbered in the summer that year.

Neil

[ess1uk]

So in 1987 it would have been 33s with mk2 stock on these trains?

[Gwiwer]

So in 1987 it would have been 33s with mk2 stock on these trains?

 

 

I don't recall Mk2 stock ever being used on the Pompey - Cardiffs.

 

From 1987/88, as soon as they were available, the route was worked IIRC by new class 155 units for a short time.  Then the 158s arrived.  Those have stayed on the route longer than just about anything else.

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, but then they went back again in the mid 70s for about 18 months.

 

This photo suggests they did work Portsmouth trains in 1976, although the unit still has its 'L' set number rather than a 'C' one.

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/_4801688_orig.jpg

 

If they were working Cardiff -Portsmouth trains in 1976 they didn't come via Westbury - I was there from 1974 to 1978 (part) and never saw one on a Cardiff - Portsmouth working in that time.

[Rivercider]

So in 1987 it would have been 33s with mk2 stock on these trains?

In a number of 1987 photos a mk2 BFK (?) appears in the middle of a five coach formation,

 

cheers

[brushman47544]

Here's a photo by Andy Kirkham dated June 1974 of Hampshire unit 1123 at BTM on a Portsmouth working https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10420501434/in/album-72157636830588524/. From where it has stopped on the platform, I would be inclined to think its a 6-car train.

Edited May 11, 2016 by brushman47544

[ess1uk]

I don't recall Mk2 stock ever being used on the Pompey - Cardiffs.

 

From 1987/88, as soon as they were available, the route was worked IIRC by new class 155 units for a short time.  Then the 158s arrived.  Those have stayed on the route longer than just about anything else.

Loco and mk1s upto 1987?

[ess1uk]

In a number of 1987 photos a mk2 BFK (?) appears in the middle of a five coach formation,

 

cheers

So 4 mk1s and a mk2?

I sometimes have trouble telling what coach is what depending on the angle of the photos.

[The Stationmaster]

Here's a photo by Andy Kirkham dated June 1974 of Hampshire unit 1123 at BTM on a Portsmouth working https://www.flickr.com/photos/52554553@N06/10420501434/in/album-72157636830588524/. From where it has stopped on the platform, I would be inclined to think its a 6-car train.

 

I doubt it.  The position of the train suggests to me that the far end would be just on the Platform No. 6 side of the marker board.  If it was a  6 car train in Platform 6 the rear end of it would be out of view to the right and if it was at platform 5 (i.e. the other side of the marker board) little or none of it would be visible.  I am thus firmly of the view that it is a 3 car train standing in Platform 6 and is wholly on the Platform 6 side of the marker board.

 

(The critical point about the marker boards - with shorter trains  - is that the back end of the train has to be in advance of the board if the train runs through to the further platform on arrival.  Thus a train arriving at the Bristol East end would have to come to a stand wholly in advance of the marker board, about where that unit is standing.)

[br2975]

From my sightings, some sample formations used on the Cardiff - Bristol - Portsmouth axis during 1987

.

With a few other gems thrown in.

.

Cardiff Central

Weds. 04/02/1987

33033+18283+7220+35309+18659+18963

47479+18721+34667+35480+7156+18929

47472+18612+7225+34671+35045+18720

47479+18835+7230+35328+35291+18949

.

Severn Tunnel Jct.

Weds. 27/05/1987

33209+18919+35321+7996+18761

47466+18283+7214+35115+35280+5030

.

Cardiff West Jct.

Tuesday 09/06/1987

33013+7216+35195+5041+18716+4847

.

Cardiff Central

Tuesday 16/06/1987

33064+18929+17019+35480+18413+18615

.

Cardiff Central

Fri. 31/07/1987

37431+18923+18712+18721+17052+18947+18963 (Swansea - Portsmouth Hbr)

37426+18929+18927+17041+35482+18716 (1V54 1010hrs. Portsmouth Hbr-Swansea)

33060+18812+35191+17051+18861+18409

.

Cardiff West Jct.

Tues. 04/08/1987

37431+19021+18957+17040+35120+18625 (1O40 0950hrs. Swansea-Portsmouth Hbr)

.

Cardiff West Jct,

Tues. 11/08/1987

33002+19004+18922+17030+?????

.

Cardiff Central

Weds. 19/08/1987

33027+18835+24835+17101+35480 (1410 ex Portsmouth Hbr.)

.

Cardiff Central

Fri. 21/08/1987

47466+18932+18572+35044+7225+18283

.

Cardiff Central

Sat. 22/08/1987

33065+18929+18927+17041+35482+18716 (0550hrs. Cardiff-Portsmouth Hbr)

47555+5248+5467+5473+17097+6529+5346+5256 (0607hrs Cardiff-Crewe)

.

Cardiff Central

Tues. 01/09/1987

40122+5248+5467+5473+17097+6529+5346+5256 (1300hrs Cardiff-Holyhead Pla.2)

47589+5254+5287+5398+17057+6526+5246+5281 (Holyhead-Cardiff arr.Plat.3)

33011+18782+18599+34671+17060+18952 (Cardiff-Portsmouth Hbr. Plat.2)

47446+35321+17047+24585+18820+18625 (Portsmouth Hbr.-Cardiff arr. Plat.4)

37431+18929+18927+17041+35482+18716 (Crewe-Swansea dep.1337hrs Plat.3)

.

Cardiff Central

Mon. 12/10/1987

33018+24585+18957+17040+35291+18625 (1010 Portsmouth Hbr – Cardiff).

.

.

.

Brian R

[andy stroud]

I don't recall Mk2 stock ever being used on the Pompey - Cardiffs.

 

From 1987/88, as soon as they were available, the route was worked IIRC by new class 155 units for a short time.  Then the 158s arrived.  Those have stayed on the route longer than just about anything else.

 

The class 155s took over on Monday 16 May 1988. I was out on  that last weekend taking pictures and just looking at them, several of the trains were formed of just 4 mk 1s where as they generally had been five. Some trains did have a mk2 in the middle. This is 33 029 near Westbury on the final Saturday 14 May.

 

 

 

Later in the year after the 155s had door problems, class 156s worked. Here is a class 156 at Salisbury on 6 May 1989.

 

 

Andy

[brushman47544]

I doubt it.  The position of the train suggests to me that the far end would be just on the Platform No. 6 side of the marker board.  If it was a  6 car train in Platform 6 the rear end of it would be out of view to the right and if it was at platform 5 (i.e. the other side of the marker board) little or none of it would be visible.  I am thus firmly of the view that it is a 3 car train standing in Platform 6 and is wholly on the Platform 6 side of the marker board.

 

(The critical point about the marker boards - with shorter trains  - is that the back end of the train has to be in advance of the board if the train runs through to the further platform on arrival.  Thus a train arriving at the Bristol East end would have to come to a stand wholly in advance of the marker board, about where that unit is standing.)

Interesting. So we're DMUs treated differently as I'm sure I remember loco hauled formations of 5 or 6 coaches stopping in the middle of the platform so as much was under the canopy as possible.

[jonny777]

 

 

The photo at Bristol shows a number of interesting points.  It shows the half-unit which the WR regularly turned out with these sets splitting them into two two-car sections.  Being basically Mk1 coaches but wired for DMU operation there was no difficulty in making the connection between driving end and intermediate end as can just be seen between cars 2 and 3.  Peak-hour commuter services to and from Paddington were often formed likewise.  On one occasion I even noted both half-sets of one unit in adjacent platforms bound, respectively for Oxford and Newbury!  I bet that flummoxed the spotters relying on set numbers!!!  The L700-series came later in their lives as they were first numbered in the 500-series but (in common at the time with other WR DMUs) without a divisional prefix letter.  Did they ever carry a Cardiff Division C-prefix?   

 

 

 

This one certainly did.  https://www.flickr.com/photos/daffy-dub/7454520160/in/album-72157649913702350/

 

Seems to have suffered the Cardiff City FC treatment though.

[keefer]

liked the comment about the axe - the 'fans' must've got hold of the one in the guard's van, unless of course, they brought their own!

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting. So we're DMUs treated differently as I'm sure I remember loco hauled formations of 5 or 6 coaches stopping in the middle of the platform so as much was under the canopy as possible.

 

No, the same Instruction applied to all trains but obviously longer trains would be unable to get their rear end clear of the marker board in some platforms but anyway they should draw up to the platform end unless the Driver was instructed to stop elsewhere by the platform staff.

 

 The reason for the Instruction was to minimise the risk of collision if a second train was signalled into the platform as although it would be approaching at slow speed prepared to stop short the Driver could reasonably assume that an illuminated subsidiary withe relevant platform number would indicate that he had the road as far as the marker board.   Thus a second train coming could well stop part way along the platform - at the marker board - and on some odd numbered platforms that would mean that almost all of the train was under the overall roof.

[Grampus]

In a number of 1987 photos a mk2 BFK (?) appears in the middle of a five coach formation,

 

cheers

I certainly recall the occasional Mk 2 Brake/First (BFK?  Not good with the carriage codes!) in the Pompey sets in the mid-80s (circa 84-87) when I was a regular customer, with family in Salisbury and studying in Bristol.  Rest of the set was always Mk 1s though - happy days!

 

Best wishes,

 

Paul

[jonny777]

If they were working Cardiff -Portsmouth trains in 1976 they didn't come via Westbury - I was there from 1974 to 1978 (part) and never saw one on a Cardiff - Portsmouth working in that time.

 

 

That is pretty definite evidence that they did not. 

 

So, what did they work in their second visit to Cardiff?  Pembroke Dock services?  Crewe/Manchester trains?

 

It is difficult to find many photos of them at all between the RG and BG years. Maybe they just spent most of the time in store?