The Tank Museum and what the NRM is missing.

[spamcan61]

Vaguely on topic I've just checked out the Imperial War Museums' YouTube page and they only manage around 45K subscribers (compared with Tank museum 360K+) despite producing a steady stream of content.

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/imperialwarmuseums/videos

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheTankMuseum/videos

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by spamcan61

[Nearholmer]

From the LTM report 2019-20:

 

"Expenditure stayed broadly constant at £16,064k (2019: £15,981k). As ever, rent and building charges, facilities costs and staffing form the majority of our expenditure. Staff costs increased in line with pay awards, despite a number of vacancies carried through the year, offset by other savings elsewhere in the business as part of a controlled approach to costs."

 

They had a £751k operating surplus, but an overall net deficicit of £113k after depreciation and capital income.

 

The whole report is here file:///C:/Users/info/Downloads/Annual%20report%202019-20.pdf

 

The 2020-21 Report hasn't been published yet, but given that nearly every aspect of their income must have been whopped by covid precautions, a £1.75M hole to fill doesn't seem at all unlikely.

 

On Topic Alert: Videos 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ltmuseumvideo

 

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Nearholmer

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The whole report is here file:///C:/Users/info/Downloads/Annual%20report%202019-20.pdf

 

Birlstone, we have a problem.

[spamcan61]

12 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Birlstone, we have a problem.

The annual reports are here, can't get a direct link to work.

 

https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/about/governance

[pete_mcfarlane]

4 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

There never seems to be any possibility of a compromise between free entry and a (to me) eye-watering sum like eighteen quid. Couldn't the NRM charge something like a fiver, which would help top up the coffers but still not deter most visitors?

They do try to get you to donate a fiver on entry. At the NRM you still have to go past a person on a desk to get in, unlike other free museums where you can just wander in (after having your bag searched) with donation boxes. 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

They do try to get you to donate a fiver on entry. At the NRM you still have to go past a person on a desk to get in, unlike other free museums where you can just wander in (after having your bag searched) with donation boxes. 

That just puts my back up as soon as I arrive.  I'm far more likely to make a donation if the donation box is by the exit door or perhaps beside some particular exhibit towards its restoration.  And the NRM is a museum that does deserve the support.  I see rattling a can in my face in the same light as a restaurant expecting a tip before the meal.

 

The NRM certainly in a different league to the York, Clapham and Swindon museums of my youth or the exhibits once in the small Museum of Science & Engineering formerly on Newcastle's Town Moor.  And as for the Science Museum in Kensington, they've given up on railways - fortunately most of their stuff was rescued by John Jolly and now lives at Mangapps Farm.

 

Not a good idea to offend your visitors immediately they arrive - last time I went to Beamish some years ago an officious little man in the car park insisting that I park somewhere I considered unsuitable.  So I drove off without contributing to their coffers and haven't been back to a place I had previously enjoyed visiting.

 

One day I will visit the Muckleburgh tank museum - I was  a few miles away only yesterday but didn't have time.

[Gibbo675]

11 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

They do try to get you to donate a fiver on entry. At the NRM you still have to go past a person on a desk to get in, unlike other free museums where you can just wander in (after having your bag searched) with donation boxes. 

Why do they search you bag, the only things worth stealing wouldn't even fit in my house never mind a bag !!!

[Phil Parker]

19 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Why do they search you bag, the only things worth stealing wouldn't even fit in my house never mind a bag !!!

 

Please tell me this is a rhetorical question/joke. 

[Gilbert]

18 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Please tell me this is a rhetorical question/joke. 

I think we may be confusing  bag searches on entry and exit?

[009 micro modeller]

On 30/07/2021 at 07:29, Nearholmer said:

A comparison with the LT Museum is interesting, because that manages to cover both the societal impact of public transport

 

Absolutely - but does this have to do with the STEM focus that comes from the NRM being part of the Science Museum Group, possibly meaning that they don’t focus as much on the social history?

 

In relation to the overall topic, pretty much all museums have some form of digital content, even more due to the need to develop this during Covid but it is something lots of them were doing anyway. This is a page from the NRM website: https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

but does this have to do with the STEM focus that comes from the NRM being part of the Science Museum Group

Not sure. It would need a delve into their ‘statement of purpose’ to know whether or not exploring societal impact is part of their remit - thinking about it, the main Science Museum doesn’t do a lot of it (to my recollection, only their fairly new, and very good, ‘history of telecoms’ gallery covers that angle to any great degree).

 

LTM does STEM too, helped by the fact that it is within spitting distance of the main engineering institution HQ’s, and has the ability to draw upon the engineering communities within the rest of TfL.

[PaulRhB]

On 29/07/2021 at 17:00, AY Mod said:

 

What he's probably short of is time (to entertain people for no benefit).

 

While I agree with the time bit the Tank Museum does benefit from its YouTube talks in drawing people in.  I had a chat with their education officer after a superb walk n talk at one of their Tiger Days and he said a lot of people come after seeing the Museum content online. 
They acknowledge though a lot of interest is because of the popularity of video games such as World of Tanks too. Bovington has an advantage there over ‘uncool’ hobbies, the war connection not having the social media police after it so far. 
 

 

On 29/07/2021 at 04:07, OnTheBranchline said:

While watching The Tank Museum's YouTube channel, I was blown away by the amount of content that the museum makes and they really make an effort to appeal to everyone (not just in the UK). When I look up The National Railway Museum on YouTube, it's a bit pathetic with the majority of videos from at least 5 years ago. All they would need is someone to talk about the various locos around the museum (even go on tour to various railways) but there's nothing.

 

Anyone agree?

As mentioned above they have some very knowledgeable staff and volunteers who provide context in their own time too and are good in camera. They have also involved several celebrities with an interest through documentaries that used their facilities and they got them to do a short promo as part payment. They are very switched onto endorsements  

Maybe holding some events and inviting Pete W, Jools and Roger Daltrey etc and getting them to do an intro? 

The Festiniog Rly does an excellent series of update videos, nearly all done by John Wooden their shop manager, but again a fair amount of that is down to his personal skill set and enthusiasm. 

 

On 29/07/2021 at 14:59, tomparryharry said:

 

 

A lot of the public audio-visual at Bovington is courtesy of David Fletcher, and David Willey. Both of these gents are world-renowned historians, who can deliver  facts with absolute certainty, gained through first-hand practical knowledge. 
 

 

Balance of enthusiast videos plus YouTube friendly ones? David Willey promoting their replica inflatable Tiger 88mm shells during lockdown left me slightly bemused one day!

 

On 29/07/2021 at 14:59, tomparryharry said:

 

It's a bit unfair on the NRM, where there is no first-hand practical knowledge left. The operating staff left a long time ago...  One curator at the NRM was noted by quoting... "We can always buy knowledge... " Sure, but where?

 

I suspect the system for recruiting is a bit more convoluted at National Museums with certain HR interference in interviews or sifting applications before the team get to talk to the applicants too. 
To be honest Bovington makes the IWM in London look a bit off the boil too so it’s not just railways that aren’t making such a stir.

 

Bovington has the magical right place right time with the technical knowledge and media skills there in front and behind the camera. I don’t think it’s quantity matching Bovington that’s needed but it may well be quality and subject choice, so a few videos aimed at the YouTube generation?

History of speed, power, major engineering feats with involvement from the celebrities above and others like Chris Barrie and now Tim Dunn? 
Linking into their fan bases too so it gets shared around  

Edited July 31, 2021 by PaulRhB

[AY Mod]

13 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

While I agree with the time bit the Tank Museum does benefit from its YouTube talks in drawing people in

 

I think the OP is looking from a position of provided entertainment rather than any likelihood of visiting. 

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

I think the OP is looking from a position of provided entertainment rather than any likelihood of visiting. 

Yes but it plants seeds for when you’re in the vicinity  

 

I agree it’s probably not worth investing in staff purely for it hence my mention of the FR and Bovington being lucky to have the right people who have the media skills. 
 

Note how BRM’s photo and media content improved after getting certain people on board who also deal with it in their own time to an extent   
 

The NRM was generally far better than the revamped IWM last time I visited but Bovington has been very good in marrying modern presentation with abundant facts and would be too on my go see how they do it list. (They also have had some serious private sponsorship with the arena no doubt due to senior military staff having words in the right ears). Royal Armouries Leeds would be on my list of good all round presentation too. 

NRM also has done quite well in getting the Flying Haggis associated with it in the media nationally and locally when it’s running so I think they are doing ok with visibility in the media their funding masters notice. 

[iL Dottore]

Whilst my comment is not completely on topic, I think my observations may strike a chord. I have been visiting museums ever since I was old enough to go (so from about 1960 onwards), and what I have noticed over the years - and this is something that has accelerated since about 2000 - is a relentless dumbing down of museum content (with a few honourable exceptions), the replacement of people who really know and love the subject by individuals with degrees in “Museum Studies“ and the relentless pursuit of a demographic that neither is interested in, nor can be bothered to visit, any museum (and let’s not even get started on the topic of kowtowing to every “political flavour of the month” whims of the Social Media Police).

 

I may be old-fashioned, but I believe one of the purposes of the museum is to instruct and to challenge; certainly, when I was about seven or eight years old I may not have necessarily understood every single word in an informative display caption, but I was able to put the unknown words into context and also was willing to find out more about it later, after my museum visit.  
 

I last visited the NRM about 15 years ago, shortly after I had been in California and had visited the excellent California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento. Not only was the museum in Sacramento beautifully laid out and with a superb presentation of materials, but descriptive labels were informative without descending to language and descriptions best suited to primary school children. They also had a shop with a number of souvenirs not usually seen in a museum shop https://www.californiarailroad.museum/store

 

Sadly, when compared with the California State Railroad Museum the NRM does look like the poorer relation.

[Nearholmer]

21 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I may be old-fashioned

 

I think you probably are.

 

I too became a museumophile at primary school age, possibly even younger thinking about it, mainly due to my mother, who was (still is!) very good at explaining museum exhibits to small children, and making superficially dull items interesting.

 

But, for every child who "got the bug", and grew-up c omfortable with the Victorian style of presentation (glass case; label naming the object; possibly a date; latin name if dead animal or vegetable; er ..... thats it), there were tens who simply didn't engage with that. I remember school visits to museums when 3/30 in the class were really into it, maybe 10/30 half into it, and the rest not at all.

 

For my money, if the more modern style of presentation hooks more children, and I'm pretty certain it does, then its worthwhile. Adults can always find out more by delving, and there are plenty of very trad museums left for connoissuers of the old-fashioned; I recommend The Pitt Rivers at Oxford, and the LZS "stuffed animal collection" at Tring as being wonderfully archaic, although they may be a bit off your usual beat.

[D9020 Nimbus]

15 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The NRM certainly in a different league to the York, Clapham and Swindon museums of my youth or the exhibits once in the small Museum of Science & Engineering formerly on Newcastle's Town Moor. 

The content (and rather more) from the Museum of Science and Engineering was moved to the Discovery Museum not far from Central Station — free admittance the last time I was there. The building on the Town Moor (actually, in Exhibition Park) was latterly a military vehicle museum; don’t know whether it’s still going.

[Phil Parker]

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I agree it’s probably not worth investing in staff purely for it hence my mention of the FR and Bovington being lucky to have the right people who have the media skills. 
 

Note how BRM’s photo and media content improved after getting certain people on board who also deal with it in their own time to an extent

 

Which brings us to an important point - if your museum is lucky enough to have a volunteer who is good at online, or someone on the staff who can do it in addition to the stuff you are paying for, that's great. Plenty of museums don't have this with the result there is little or no online presence.

 

I'd assume the NRM has to pay for everyone and can't leave communications in the hands of well-meaning volunteers. For a start, I doubt any volunteer would hang around when on the receiving end of some of the abuse dished out by "enthusiasts" to their social media team. (I'm sure those "enthusiasts" would argue they wouldn't be hurling abuse if only the NRM would do exactly what they want, but then the next "enthusiast" wants something different and you can't keep everyone happy, especially if your organisations remit is significantly different to enthusiast* run lines.)

 

If you think this is a bad thing, would you do your job for free?

 

*note the lack of speach marks. This is to differentiate between people who get their hands dirty and do stuff and those who just moan. The former group will be well aware of the latter.

 

[Gibbo675]

12 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I think we may be confusing  bag searches on entry and exit?

Thus proving that poor old Phil didn't get the joke  !

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

the replacement of people who really know and love the subject by individuals with degrees in “Museum Studies“

 

I’m not sure you meant it that way but this reads as though the two are mutually exclusive, whereas actually I’ve met lots of people who have Museum Studies or Heritage Management master’s degrees who are very passionate and knowledgeable about the subjects and exhibits they work with. If they weren’t then they wouldn’t be working in heritage - as a sector it generally isn’t that well paid or particularly easy to get into. However, a Museum Studies degree is often asked for in museum job person specifications, which is why people are doing them - as I’m finding at the moment, having a related (archaeology/history-based) but not museum-specific degree makes it slightly harder to demonstrate the skills that museums seem to want (as in general skills that most museums look for - not specific to the subject matter). If you get someone at Bovington/the NRM who has served in the army/worked on the railways (or whatever other example) previously, and only moved on to a related museum later then they will be fantastically knowledgeable about the subject. In situations where people like that aren’t available, or don’t necessarily have the other skills that the museum wants, then you could end up with someone who has a lot of museum-specific skills but whose previous job was in a museum focused on a completely different subject.

 

8 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

the relentless pursuit of a demographic that neither is interested in, nor can be bothered to visit, any museum

 

I sort of know what you mean. Some of this is outreach, which museums should be doing (especially if they’re publicly-funded). They are probably trying to reach a wider audience, including those who are unable to visit the museum. The relentless pursuit of those with absolutely no interest isn’t something I associate that much with museums, not to say it doesn’t happen. I have seen a similar phenomenon in a national sport organisation that I’m a member of though, where the leadership have poured vast amounts of funding and resources into trying to attract beginners. Not a bad thing in itself, but as well as seemingly targeting their efforts towards those with the least interest in the sport, they’ve also done it in a confusing way which doesn’t feed into the events already being run by local clubs, while removing funding from other activities that already run successfully. I wonder if, in sport and in museums, there is something about the way money is allocated by funding bodies that drives these sorts of decisions...

 

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

I'd assume the NRM has to pay for everyone and can't leave communications in the hands of well-meaning volunteers.

 

Having spoken to some people from the NRM a few months ago (including volunteers), they seem very committed to the concept that volunteers will not be used to replace paid staff, quite correctly IMHO (imagine that a staff member has just been made redundant due to cuts and a volunteer is then recruited to do exactly the same thing, for example). So the volunteers are generally meant to be doing things that are “extra,” beyond the core stuff that the NRM does. Several museums seem to take the same stance but it’s slightly different on a lot of heritage railways, which were started by volunteers and only recruited paid staff when the whole operation became bigger.

[Dava]

If you think the NRM has lost its way (I don’t) have you visited the National Maritime Museum in the past 10 years?

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum

 

It’s in Greenwich so lots of day trippers. The story of a maritime nation? Hardly. You look in vain for an actual ship (don’t mention PT Reliant, scrapped for being in the way). Head forChatham Dockyard instead.

 

Dava

[Gibbo675]

6 hours ago, Dava said:

If you think the NRM has lost its way (I don’t) have you visited the National Maritime Museum in the past 10 years?

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum

 

It’s in Greenwich so lots of day trippers. The story of a maritime nation? Hardly. You look in vain for an actual ship (don’t mention PT Reliant, scrapped for being in the way). Head forChatham Dockyard instead.

 

Dava

Hi Dava,

 

The only question that needs to be asked is:

 

Which one is run by civil servants and which one is run by those that have passion for what they like doing ?

 

Gibbo.

[steve1]

On 29/07/2021 at 23:44, phil-b259 said:

 

 

And THAT is the key difference.

 

Museums that charge an entry fee will generally have more cash to spend and also have an emphasis on keeping their stuff in their own hands to maximise visitor draw.

 

National museums (i.e. those which get a pitiful grant from the DCMS) not only lack funds, there is immense political pressure to do what the DCMS (or more precisely the consultants they hire* say) even if it is 'dumbing down' or side-lining the exhibits in favour of 'retail opportunities'.

 

Its telling how many of our national museums changed from boring stuffy places in the 1990s once the Conservative Government of the era made them charge for entry. Suddenly their was a real focus and ephemeris on attracting people with exciting displays and things to keep them entertained for a whole day.

 

Regrettably given MPs and groups representing low income families will create a political s*******m if charging were ever to be reintroduced, I cannot see things improving, particularly in the post Covid world where the thumbscrews on Government departmental spending will be tightened further rather than loosened.

 

 

* Like most of Whitehall any real experience was ditched a long time ago, sacrificed to the alter of outsourcing and the private sector always knows best.

 

 

So “low income families” can go hang and the NRM and other free museums should be the province of the middle and upper classes? Historical and cultural education and enjoyment should be available to all for everyone’s benefit.

 

The national museum movement should get decent Government funding. An element of (ethical) sponsorship would also be welcome.

 

steve

[Michael Hodgson]

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

However, a Museum Studies degree is often asked for in museum job person specifications, which is why people are doing them - as I’m finding at the moment, having a related (archaeology/history-based) but not museum-specific degree makes it slightly harder to demonstrate the skills that museums seem to want (as in general skills that most museums look for - not specific to the subject matter).

 

There's a good reason why museums don't want to employ archaeologists.   They're afraid you'll move all the exhibits aside and have the floorboards up to dig a ruddy great hole in their foundations.  If there's the remains of a Roman or Viking latrine under Leeman Road, it's fine where it is!

[AY Mod]

This is getting ridiculous now.