Dymented - the Serious stuff starts!

[Chimer]

16 hours ago, Philou said:

A special announcement - calling Mr @Chimer - a special announcement!

 

Thank you! And now eagerly awaiting the next special announcement - of the departure of a train from Ledbury ...... no pressure whatsoever!

[Philou]

1 hour ago, Chimer said:

of the departure of a train from Ledbury ...... no pressure whatsoever!

 

Yeah but, no but - in which direction? I was musing this very point this morning whilst doing some of the branch. It may well be that any Ledbury to Dymented train will have to go via Pontrilas as I think the viaducts are going to take a little time. The making of them is something that could be done on a cold winter's night next to a roaring great wife fire - I mean - fire.

 

More later,

 

Toodle pip

[Philou]

No photo today, but the branch and the single-to-double point are in place. I want to ballast asap but a little bell in my head keeps saying 'Dooooon't, just don't'. I need to wait for the catchpoint to arrive as there will be 6 points in succession that will need to be laid in the storage area and as Sod's Law will have it, I'm sure I'll need to lift some of the branch pointwork (plus branch track) to hoick the switches over the actuator arms. I'm not cutting them until the points are in their final position.

 

I have plenty to do in the interim - extending the bus, wiring of the track to the bus, wiring of the points to the bus and the design and making of the mimic board - that's just the electrics, plus extending the landscaping towards Pontrilas and perhaps laying a separate bus under the mainline.

 

More tomorrow,

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Hello chaps and chapesses,

 

Today was like wading through treacle. It's hot but very humid with thunderstorms left right and centre. Nearby villages have had mud flows running through their streets overnight.

 

I felt very unworkish especially as I had decided to get on with the wiring and despite wiring diagrams from the DCC Concepts site, I couldn't quite get my head around what I wanted to achieve and what may be possible (without going into any complex electronics). I decided what time was left of the afternoon would be better spent by painting up the rails and sleepers through the station platforms with a view of ballasting that section asap. The branch will wait until the catch-point arrives - should be here late next week. I was quite pleased with the grime on the sleepers and the rails, having had their first coat of rust. The rails will get a second coat tomorrow as I find acrylics have no grip on metal unlike enamels of days gone by.

 

No photo today but perhaps work will have advanced enough for one tomorrow.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Hello chums and chumesses,

 

Today was far better as I got on with wiring up the points that I had already put into place and having painted the rails last night, I got on with some ballasting:

 

 

^ Brown I'm afraid as that's all there is around here. As the branch will be served primarily by steam engines it's rust, innit.

 

I don't know how you chaps would tackle this ballasting - maybe you have some ideas. The plasticard that has been placed vertically as a placeholder for the platform supporting wall and, having had a slight smear of Vaseline, is intended to allow the ballast to form a nice straight edge. The reason is that I intend to build my platforms out of card and faced with Scalescenes' building papers (sprayed with matt varnish, natch). However, card and ink-jetted papers sprayed with water and then dribbled with dilute PVA sauce are unlikely to make good bedfellows and this was the only thing of which I could think.

 

I let you know how I get on when I take the plasticard away in the morning.

 

Tomorrow, more ballasting and then designing the mimic board - I've done it on the computer but now to mark it all out on some 5mm ply and then cut it.

 

More tomorrow,

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[JeffP]

I've only ever seen threads before where model trackwork is laid in its entirety, before being tested, tested then tested again.

Only after it's builder is satisfied is any paint or ballast applied.

After that it's scenery.

Aren't you even a little bit worried about snags?😕

[Philou]

3 hours ago, JeffP said:

Aren't you even a little bit worried about snags?

 

No - I'm the forever optimist! I'm more concerned about creating shorts when the points are thrown one way or the other. As every piece of track, and points, so far have had droppers soldered to their undersides and those droppers placed in Wagos attached to the bus. All the point motors have push-fit connectors. There cannot be any errors regarding the droppers as it's blue to blue and brown to brown. I am not over concerned IF shorts do occur as it's a question of inversing the connectors under the PMs and they're all accessible from below. Even a PM failure wouldn't a disaster other than trying to feed the actuator wire through the tie-bar hole - not the easiest task from below.

 

Testing will commence once the mimic board is built. This was to start this afternoon but due to violent thunderstorms hitting here this evening, I had to rearrange everything in the barn so we could get the car undercover which now means my working space has disappeared temporarily until tomorrow.

 

I am more concerned about the rooves to the barn and house being wrecked by golf ball-sized hailstones (had that a few years ago) and of course where is the layout? Right under the roof! Fingers crossed that we don't have some of those. I think @Andy Hayter is due thunderstorms in his part of the world too - perhaps you too?

 

I removed the plasticard this morning and all the ballast seemed to have held itself in place so it was rinse and repeat this morning.

 

More ballasting this afternoon and club accounts as it's a while since I poked my nose into them.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

[Philou]

8 hours ago, JeffP said:

Aren't you even a little bit worried about snags?

 

The ever optimist has had his optimism well and truly spanked this afternoon =:/ . I took @JeffP 's comments on board and I did think that was very wise advice.

 

I have a trusty Gaugemaster controller with brake simulator, that still had the price of £19.95 on it until recently (bought it in the late 70s). I also had a new loco at hand - never been run and using a new piece of track to test it, it worked out of the box - all well and good so far.

 

Put the loco on the track and attached the wires of the controller to the bus - bzzt - the thermal cut-out cut-in. Oh! I checked all the wiring to the bus and the track blue-to-blue etc., that was fine as expected. What to do? I then undid all the wiring to the PMs as I can't be sure, as they're non-operational, that they're connecting to the frog correctly via the built-in DPDT. Bzzt! Double 'Oh' with a 'Bother' thrown in.

 

It was too hot and clammy in there to do much more for today.

 

Next step will be to undo the bus connections to the two platform as they are isolated via the double insulated fishplates - I can check the branch and the one platform separately from the other platform and the head shunt.

 

If it's not that then questions in my head:

 

a) Is there a 'short' through one of the PMs that will persist until I can make it (or they) operate, or;

 

b) I have not cut the Peco-made links under one of the points - unlikely as I did check. More bothersome but not yet fatal as I can lift the points as there is no ballasting nearby, or;

 

c) Outside chance that there is a short through the ballast as the really wet stuff is bridging a pair of droppers. I'll wait until Monday and check again when everything will be dry.

 

I have a small multimeter but I haven't a clue how to use it and the leaflet that came with it just gives advice how not to kill it!

 

I'll go now and lick my wounds - but tomorrow is a new day - huzzah - and new solutions will be found - yay!

 

Cheers everyone and enjoy the weekend,

 

Philip

[lezz01]

Just go through the turnouts checking that you have insulated rail joiners in the right place. Also have a quick look around to make sure that you don't have anything conductive laying across the tracks.

Regards Lez.

[Philou]

2 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Just go through the turnouts checking that you have insulated rail joiners

 

That was my first thought, and that's been done. I will have another look in the morning - just in case. There's nothing on the tracks or in-between. I just hope it's not the frogs - those damn froggies ....................

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[lezz01]

How are you feeding the common crossing? I mean what are you using to change polarity?

This is why I like to build my own.

Regards Lez.

Edited June 29 by lezz01

[Philou]

 

^ Oi! What's this then? Anthony Manor. What's it doing? Trundling along quite happily over ALL of the trackwork heading up towards the Ledbury branch. I can see that. I thought there were sparks and unintended electrical problems? There were, but all sorted now. Let me go back to this morning .....................................

 

As I said yesterday, a new day brought new solutions. I decided I would undo the bus and all connections to the track (the PMs were undone yesterday) so clambering onto the trusty sun-bed everything underneath was unclipped - I was soooooooooooooo glad I decided to Wago and not solder.

 

Using the trusty Gaugemaster I then applied power direct to the tracks and Bzzzt! power tripped out. The last thing left to do was to start removing the points and check those for any unremoved connections to the frogs. I started at the Pontrilas end and having found various flat-ended tools I gently levered the first point off the track bed working my way back and forth along the track towards the platforms, the second point forming the cross-over, the catch-point and the headshunt. I was soooooooooooo glad that I used headless nails as the sleepers just popped themselves off. I raised enough track off the deck to then allow some easing back and slid the first point away from the fishplates.

 

Sure enough - despite my own self-assurances that I had checked before pinning down - the pre-made connections were still there! A quick levering with a very small jeweller's screwdriver had both off. I guessed what had happened and so I eased more track up and removed the second point - however, my modified catch-point fell apart =:o !! Notwithstanding, I concentrated on the point and that too still had the factory applied connections. A quick flick of the screwdriver and that was the end of those two, too.

 

I now checked the rest of the track with power and sure enough - no bzzzt this time.

 

So what happened and how come I hadn't undone the connections? If you recall, a few pages back I had started to modify two pairs of crossovers to maintain 45mm centres through Dymented. The one pair (Ledbury direction) were fine but the other pair were throwing the geometry out and I exchanged the modified ones for another pair. Who was so pleased that the geometry worked that he forgot about the connections? Yes, the loon at the keyboard. As soon as I saw what was under the first point I lifted I guessed I didn't have to go much further in problem solving.

 

It was then a case of putting everything back. The now-in-bits catchpoint had to be rebuilt. It took a while but basically what happened was the soldered wire (the 1.5mm²) had little give in it and forced the rail out of the chairs leaving just the blades in place! I had to unsolder the wires from the rails, tidy them up a bit and feed them back onto the chairs - not a simple job as there's not much meat to the chairs and having had three goes and finally got the rails in place I cyanoed them. I left the glue to harden over lunch.

 

I continued then putting the track back very gingerly reinserting the rails into the fishplates until everything was hovering a few millimetres above the trackbed. It was then the easing of the tie bars one at a time over the actuator arm and *click* the sleepers on the headless nails until everything was back as it was. The two wire were resoldered to the catchpoint and that was that. Clambering back on the sunbed came next reconnecting all the track wires to the bus and this time another test without any bzzt. I have this time not reconnected the power wires to the PMs - though the frogs are - until such time as the mimic board is constructed. I can get cracking tomorrow when I get the car back out of the barn and free up my workspace.

 

As you can see from the photo above - all is well. The only thing that's bugging me is the loco didn't stall once through the pointwork and they've no power - as far as I can see - which comes the question asked by @lezz01 :

 

22 hours ago, lezz01 said:

How are you feeding the common crossing? I mean what are you using to change polarity?

 

The common crossing is wired back to the in-built frog-juicer (DPDT?) of the PM which is currently unpowered - but as I said above, nothing should be working until the mimic board is built.

 

As there was a bit of time, the rest of the station tracks were ballasted.

 

Anyway, all's well that ends well (for today).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30 by Philou
of 'n' off

[kingmender]

3 hours ago, Philou said:

 

^ Oi! What's this then? Anthony Manor. What's it doing? Trundling along quite happily over ALL of the trackwork heading up towards the Ledbury branch. I can see that. I thought there were sparks and unintended electrical problems? There were, but all sorted now. Let me go back to this morning .....................................

 

As I said yesterday, a new day brought new solutions. I decided I would undo the bus and all connections to the track (the PMs were undone yesterday) so clambering onto the trusty sun-bed everything underneath was unclipped - I was soooooooooooooo glad I decided to Wago and not solder.

 

Using the trusty Gaugemaster I then applied power direct to the tracks and Bzzzt! power tripped out. The last thing left to do was to start removing the points and check those for any unremoved connections to the frogs. I started at the Pontrilas end and having found various flat-ended tools I gently levered the first point off the track bed working my way back and forth along the track towards the platforms, the second point forming the cross-over, the catch-point and the headshunt. I was soooooooooooo glad that I used headless nails as the sleepers just popped themselves off. I raised enough track off the deck to then allow some easing back and slid the first point away from the fishplates.

 

Sure enough - despite my own self-assurances that I had checked before pinning down - the pre-made connections were still there! A quick levering with a very small jeweller's screwdriver had both off. I guessed what had happened and so I eased more track up and removed the second point - however, my modified catch-point fell apart =:o !! Notwithstanding, I concentrated on the point and that too still had the factory applied connections. A quick flick off the screwdriver and that was the end off those two, too.

 

I now checked the rest of the track with power and sure enough - no bzzzt this time.

 

So what happened and how come I hadn't undone the connections? If you recall, a few pages back I had started to modify two pairs of crossovers to maintain 45mm centres through Dymented. The one pair (Ledbury direction) were fine but the other pair were throwing the geometry out and I exchanged the modified ones for another pair. Who was so pleased that the geometry worked that he forgot about the connections? Yes, the loon at the keyboard. As soon as I saw what was under the first point I lifted I guessed I didn't have to go much further in problem solving.

 

It was then a case of putting everything back. The now-in-bits catchpoint had to be rebuilt. It took a while but basically what happened was the soldered wire (the 1.5mm²) had little give in it and forced the rail out of the chairs leaving just the blades in place! I had to unsolder the wires from the rails, tidy them up a bit and feed them back onto the chairs - not a simple job as there's not much meat to the chairs and having had three goes and finally got the rails in place I cyanoed them. I left the glue to harden over lunch.

 

I continued then putting the track back very gingerly reinserting the rails into the fishplates until everything was hovering a few millimetres above the trackbed. It was then the easing of the tie bars one at a time over the actuator arm and *click* the sleepers on the headless nails until everything was back as it was. The two wire were resoldered to the catchpoint and that was that. Clambering back on the sunbed came next reconnecting all the track wires to the bus and this time another test without any bzzt. I have this time not reconnected the power wires to the PMs - though the frogs are - until such time as the mimic board is constructed. I can get cracking tomorrow when I get the car back out of the barn and free up my workspace.

 

As you can see from the photo above - all is well. The only thing that's bugging me is the loco didn't stall once through the pointwork and they've no power - as far as I can see - which comes the question asked by @lezz01 :

 

 

The common crossing is wired back to the in-built frog-juicer (DPDT?) of the PM which is currently unpowered - but as I said above, nothing should be working until the mimic board is built.

 

As there was a bit of time, the rest of the station tracks were ballasted.

 

Anyway, all's well that ends well (for today).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

 

Morning Philou

 

The DPDT in Cobalts can catch you out and cause a short. I have some that are mounted n a reversed position. Rather than directly under the point the motor is rotated through 180 degrees so it sits under the track before the point to avoid under board obstructions. In this case the rail 1 and rail 2 wires need to be reversed too! However its worth checking each frog with a multimeter as you wire them up.

Rodger

[Philou]

@kingmender Rodger, Thanks for that. I couldn't get it into my head what happens if you 'reverse' a PM for I too have a couple that are 'behind' rather than within the point due to obstructions. As you seem to know these things, what happens in the the case of a simple cross-over (like the one I dismantled today) where both PMs are under their respective points - which is 'left' and which is 'right'? I'm working on the principle of wires of two colours for the bus and droppers where 'blue-in-view' and 'brown-to-back'.

 

I have also bought in the last few days a multimeter, but have, as yet, no idea how to use it!

 

Cheers and goodnight from him,

 

Philip

Edited June 30 by Philou

[kingmender]

If you set your multimeter to ohms you can measure resistance to find short circuits without the track being pwered. Open circuit will show as infinate resistance (1) and short or closed circuit has no resiatnce (0). For a left hand point switched to the left the frog and right hand rail should be connected so 0 resistance, the frog and left rail should not be connected and read 1. 

 

[5BarVT]

My meter shows OL for infinite resistance rather than 1, but testing is in the same manner.  Mine has a beep function (continuity test) too, which makes it even easier.

If you’re still having trouble following, show us a photo of your meter and we can do some remote tuition.

Paul..

[5BarVT]

56 minutes ago, Philou said:

I couldn't get it into my head what happens if you 'reverse' a PM for I too have a couple that are 'behind' rather than within the point due to obstructions.

In my first round of wiring, that was a step too far for me.  I had to test by trial and error.

However, since then I have been trying to produce drawings of my wiring and have been trying to work out from first principles what I should do.  So I went and looked at my most complicated board (12 point ends in 750x450mm!).  What I noticed was that the brown and blue wires were nearest to the same edge of the board (brown front, blue rear for me) irrespective of the direction of the motor or of the point.

Thinking about it logically (aye right), the direction of the point doesn’t matter - the motor just pushes towards or away from one rail.  And when you turn the motor round it’s pushing in the opposite direction, but the switch is reversed too, cancelling each other out.

 

I use tortoise machines where the wiring convention that works is to connect the blue/brown wires physically the same way round as the droppers to the rails (I suspect the internal PCB layout is designed this way deliberately).  I would hope that DCC Concepts have been as clever, but whether they have or not, the consistency will be there by definition.

 

26 August 2021 (page 10) in my Heath Town topic shows the board in question and you can see that all the PMs have brown closest to the top of the photo and blue to the bottom.

 

HTH

Paul.

[Philou]

@kingmender, @5BarVT Thanks chaps - very useful information you've given there. I'm glad that you can do a short-circuit hunt without powering up and the 'same-side dropper colour' is also good to know - it'll be a useful heads-up.

 

In the barn this morning sorting out a temporary bench ready to cut my plywood once I've done a quick design for the board. I'll have a look over at Heath Town before I start any serious wiring!

 

More later,

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Busy, busy, busy - a flurry of activity this afternoon. I designed a mimic board just after lunch and all the bits were cut out and partially assembled by the end of the afternoon. I have the 'lid' to put into place - but I'm awaiting a piano hinge before I can assemble that part.

 

Here's the 3D model I did earlier - ignore the coloured lines for the time being as I shall need to adjust everything to allow the switches and LEDs to be placed in their  correct positions. The only thing I'm not sure what I ought to do is whether to have the switches in their positions on the panel (ie; at their respective points) or in a bank along the bottom (or top, I suppose) of the board:

 

 

Before it got dark, I went and did a little more ballasting too. :))

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Not much will happen tomorrow - real life getting in the way - again!

 

 

[5BarVT]

Hold your horses!

You might be short of two LEDs.  At each end of the loop you have the single point which needs two LEDs and the trap crossover which also needs two.  Yes, you could do some clever combining so that the common LED only lights when both the single point and the crossover are set the right way but not sure if you will have enough available contacts to make it work.

I think it will be easier to understand (and definitely easier to wire up) if you have two separate LEDS ‘between the lines’ at each end of the loop.

11 hours ago, Philou said:

The only thing I'm not sure what I ought to do is whether to have the switches in their positions on the panel (ie; at their respective points) or in a bank along the bottom (or top, I suppose) of the board:

Along the top or bottom will need the points and switches to be given numbers on the faceplate to associate them.  It will feel more like an old fashioned signalbox.  Probably more intuitive if you put the switch at the point with lever direction matching which way the trains will go. (N.B. This is opposite to the direction the tie bar moves!)

Paul.

[Philou]

@5BarVT I am already short of two LEDs anyway as the kit I bought had 12 PMs, 12 switches and 24 LEDs. I had a spare motor given to me so I'm short on two LEDs and a switch. However, I am intending to combine at least the two catchpoints to their associated point and they could stay 'blind' and so I'll have two spare LEDs. I should also like to combine the two crossovers - but then that means some clever electrics on my part so that the catchpoints work only when the next point is set 'ahead' - and I'm not sure how to do that - if at all possible.

 

Regarding the location of the SPDTs, the club have them located on the diagram with their appropriate point = more intuitive, but I think it looks a little more professional if the switches are set in banks = less intuitive. I'm not quite there yet as not a lot will happen today so 24hrs more to consider the point - sorry. I doubt if there'll be enough for an update this evening.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Flying Fox 34F]

Hello Philip,

 

If you are short of LED’s you could use one pair to show the relevant position of a crossover.  I have worked locations where this was the norm, rather than detecting each point.  I’m sure Paul has come across this as well.

With regard to the position of switches on a panel.  If the switches are located on the panel, you can set each point by following your finger along the route.  Nice an easy for any visiting operators.  A row of switches needs some more concentration to compare the diagram to the switch numbers.  It all depends on what you want to achieve.  Both methods are true to prototype.

 

Paul

[Philou]

5 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Both methods are true to prototype.

 

Ah .... now I didn't know that! Thanks for the heads-up! I shall put them at their locations seeing as it's more intuitive - especially as visitors may swing by from time to time.

 

Regarding the LEDs I forgot to add that I'm also short of a switch - so I'm definitely going to have the one catchpoint work in tandem with its associated point, and if I do that, I may as well do the other the same way saving at least a switch and possibly two LEDs that could be used elsewhere.

 

What I have completely overlooked in all of this - and if I'm to do this properly I may as well do it - er - well. Signals! Where? and what type?

 

I shall have to ask Mike, @The Stationmaster if he can advise as he's well into signals and he did offer some very useful and detailed advice regarding Ledbury - I have treasured his plan for that.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

Hello chums and chumesses,

 

Wood bodgery today - I've done the mimic board and stained it. I'm waiting for that to dry and I shall paint a nice white rectangle on the face of the board, once I've done all the holes for the switches and the LEDs. Despite some errors (all camouflaged now), I'm quite pleased with it. I'm considering it as a dry run for the much bigger ones at Pontrilas and Ledbury - when the time comes. I do also have a photo:

 

 

 

^ Just hanging about. It measures 450 x 350mm overall and the space available within the top frame is about 385 x 210mm which allows just enough room for the switches and LEDs. There are wall-warts provided with the alpha kit and they will live externally. I did try and think ahead this time and I've left a slot at the back as a cable feed.

 

On reflection, if all is dry this evening, I might be brave and do a white undercoat and use that as my drawing board and then do a nice top coat once the holes are done.

 

More tomorrow,

 

Philip

Edited July 3 by Philou

[JeffP]

Have you got shares in a plywood company?

I can't afford the stuff in France, never mind the €5 per cut and €25 delivery, (4 miles).

Last year I made a barn owl box.

Price here was over €100. And that was just the plywood and a few 35mm square battens.

I bought everything I needed in the UK including stainless screws, imported it flat pack, and saved £50.