Hitachi trains grounded

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

I doubt there is one ideal solution which meets the reasonable requirements of everyone able to travel so we are in the position of needing something which is a best-fit for the most-number-of-people.  

 

I accept the need for much larger loo compartments than were once the norm because we now welcome wheelchair users aboard our trains.  But where do things stop?  There is a defined maximum size (700mm wide by 1200mm long) and all-up (user-plus-chair) weight, the latter being 300kgs, for acceptance aboard trains.  The same standards apply to buses and to the increasing number of coaches which are wheelchair accessible.  Yet an increasing number of would-be passengers present themselves in powered mobility scooters which are well outside the maximum dimensions and which might be above the all-up weight limit with the latter being set as the safe-working limit for ramps and allowing for the greatest number of people though not quite all to make use of them.  

 

Complaints have been made by some of these people that the toilet compartments are not big enough.  They are big enough for the 700x1200 size to fully rotate in, to effect transfer between seats and to allow good hygiene accepting that there might be water spillage to the floor - there usually is no matter who is using the hand-basin especially in IETs thanks to the ludicrous shape of the things.  

 

Even I find it frustrating and confusing to have to wait for a curved door to roll right back, enter, locate and operate the "close" button and then to remember there is a separate "Lock" button which must also be operated to avoid embarrassment.  But there is no "Unlock" button so one only has to press "Open" to escape.  It all takes more time than is needed by an average able-bodied person but many trains no longer have any other facility in the name of cramming as many seats in as possible.  More seats means more demand for the (often, other than on IETs, one-and-only) toilet.  There is no contravention of the legislation if a conventional toilet cubicle is also provided elsewhere within the train; there would be a contravention if no fully-accessible facility were provided.  

 

So please may we have a pragmatic approach and consider whether a simple sliding door bolt lock is adequate - or can be made adequate - for the fully-accessible cubicle, can we please have faster door motors on them, and for units with three or more carriages can we please also have a standard cubicle which around 99% of passengers can readily use?

 

And can we, somehow, address the issue of oversize and possibly over-weight mobility scooters aboard public transport?  I am disability-aware and have some professional training in relevant areas and am of the opinion that many (though perhaps not all) of those who now use the larger scooters could use a smaller chair when using public transport.  

 

Otherwise where do we re-draw the lines?  Because doorways will need to be larger, ramps stronger and heavier, waiting areas enlarged, on-board dedicated / shared-use spaces enlarged etc etc.  I would never wish to deny travel to anyone based upon their circumstances.  We are only talking about a small number here.  But they are a very vocal and well-connected number who can sometimes very quickly attract media attention the transport operators do not want.  

Not a problem on the Liz Line trains of course - TfL got round it by not providing any toilets at all thereby taking some stopping trains in the Thames Valley back to the days before the Pressed Steel sets arrived 1959 leaving only the branches worked by SPCs with trains without toilets.  But that omission was corrected with the arrival of the Turbos on the 1990s.

 

Thus since the arrival of the 345s (designed when the ATOC standards required toilet provision on any trains operating a service which included any journey tome exceeding 30 minutes to have toilet provision) I can take a 12 minute journey up our branch line on a train with a toilet.  But, if I'm unfortunate enough to take the wrong train, my journey time without a toilet on the connecting Class 345 to Paddington can be anything between c.54-56 minutes (or even over an hour depending on standing time at the junction with the central section of the Liz Line).  No wonder the locals are not at all keen on these particular trains as they take a trip back into a lack of on-train amenities on a par with the situation over 60 years ago.

[newbryford]

11 hours ago, woodenhead said:

A bit like part of the American military that has been actively looking at using SpaceX rockets for getting to international incidents quickly.

 

And this is despite the difficulty of having a rocket on permanent standby, having to fuel it very quickly, having to load it whilst in situ on the launch pad with crates of specific dimensions using crane hoists and the little matter of gaining a rocket flightpath to anywhere in the world at short notice, finding a suitable landing spot, being able to unload the rocket, having vehicles to move the contents and then recovering the expensive rocket.

 

 

It didn't stop International Rescue.......

[woodenhead]

59 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

It didn't stop International Rescue.......

But only Thunderbird 2 could deliver any hardware, Thunderbird 1 had a winch and 3 was designed for space rescue.

 

Thunderbird 2 was basically a C17 with rocket engines, I wouldn't call it a C5

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

But only Thunderbird 2 could deliver any hardware, Thunderbird 1 had a winch and 3 was designed for space rescue.

 

Thunderbird 2 was basically a C17 with rocket engines, I wouldn't call it a C5

 

Indeed. Clive Sinclair would have sued.

[Ken.W]

15 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I have a "thing" about IET loo doors!  On my first trip on one, only a week after their introduction, the TM told me how she was involved in an embarrassing incident on Day 1.  She went to press the main door opening button (this is in the Driving First) which is to the left of the door but being right handed she instinctively pressed the button on the right hand side of the door.  This, you've guessed it, is for the loo and sadly it opened to reveal an occupant on the throne.  They'd gone in, pressed close but not lock!

 

Not just an IET thing though, same used to happen on the Mk4s. They were modified with an auto-anouncement which proclaimed "the door is closed but not locked". Don't recall if the IETs have this but if not, well, trying to get Hitachi to change anything, l heard LNER had given up on the additional luggage racks (in place of the 'no window' end seats) that they asked for 3 years ago.

 

13 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

Even I find it frustrating and confusing to have to wait for a curved door to roll right back, enter, locate and operate the "close" button and then to remember there is a separate "Lock" button which must also be operated to avoid embarrassment.  But there is no "Unlock" button so one only has to press "Open" to escape.

 

Think about it though, and there's good reason for the separate lock button which only works once the door's closed, it can only be locked when someone's in.

Otherwise, if it was  a single 'close and lock' button, you'd get the "jokers" (or inadvertent) pressing it closing the door behind them as they leave, leaving the unoccupied toilet locked and unusable.

 

On the IETs it's a lock lever rather than a button, so you do have to unlock it first before pressing open to leave - which actually does confuse a lot people who just press "open" as normal to leave, and then think they're locked in when the door doesn't open - but being Hitachi they have to operate the Japanese way, not how we expect things to work.

They then press the "call for aid" which on them goes through to the Driver, just what you want when driving at 125mph, having to tell someone how to open the toilet door!

 

This "do it our way" attitude also caused a lot of toilet failures, at least when new, not sure if this may have been fixed now. People here were used to just giving the button a short press and the door would open to go in, but no, their way you had to press and hold. So people would give it a short press and when it didn't open as expected start jabbing at the button. This though resulted in it detecting it as a fault, and locked it out of use

 

[TomScrut]

1 hour ago, Ken.W said:

They then press the "call for aid" which on them goes through to the Driver, just what you want when driving at 125mph, having to tell someone how to open the toilet door!

 

I remember being on a 91/mk4 set about 15 years ago when somebody pulled the emergency stop lever trying to flush the toilet (allegedly by accident, I did hear their excuses as they were sat near me).

[Phil Bullock]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not a problem on the Liz Line trains of course - TfL got round it by not providing any toilets at all thereby taking some stopping trains in the Thames Valley back to the days before the Pressed Steel sets arrived 1959 leaving only the branches worked by SPCs with trains without toilets.  But that omission was corrected with the arrival of the Turbos on the 1990s.

 

Thus since the arrival of the 345s (designed when the ATOC standards required toilet provision on any trains operating a service which included any journey tome exceeding 30 minutes to have toilet provision) I can take a 12 minute journey up our branch line on a train with a toilet.  But, if I'm unfortunate enough to take the wrong train, my journey time without a toilet on the connecting Class 345 to Paddington can be anything between c.54-56 minutes (or even over an hour depending on standing time at the junction with the central section of the Liz Line).  No wonder the locals are not at all keen on these particular trains as they take a trip back into a lack of on-train amenities on a par with the situation over 60 years ago.

What on Earth is an elderly gentleman with an enlarged prostate going to do when everything grinds to a halt one day and he is stuck on the train for hours? 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Phil Bullock
Spelling Timothy

[Hobby]

17 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Complaints have been made by some of these people that the toilet compartments are not big enough. 

 

Even I find it frustrating and confusing to have to wait for a curved door to roll right back, enter, locate and operate the "close" button and then to remember there is a separate "Lock" button which must also be operated to avoid embarrassment.  But there is no "Unlock" button so one only has to press "Open" to escape.  can we please have faster door motors on them, and for units with three or more carriages can we please also have a standard cubicle which around 99% of passengers can readily use?

 

And can we, somehow, address the issue of oversize and possibly over-weight mobility scooters aboard public transport?

 

As you say the compartments are big enough for the size of scooters that are allowed on board. The majority of genuinely disabled people who use an electric wheelchair or scooter are well aware of the restrictions and their devices are within the size limitations which are well publicised on the various TOC websites. I feel you are confusing those people with the much larger group of people who use "mobility" scooters and are not registered disabled. I agree that many of those scooters are extremely large and shouldn't be allowed on pavements, let alone trains or buses! Luckily we don't have to pander to their needs and they can be turned away without us breaking the disability laws which as always with these things are a sensible compromise.

 

With regard to buttons vs sliding/opening doors as someone who has to use disabled loos when taking my wife who is wheelchair bound outdoors let me give you two scenarios. First is the manual door, first we have to position the wheelchair where we can open the door and not get it in the way when opening the door, not easy in corridors where many disabled loos are placed, once the door is open and we've got in we have to close it behind us, usually easy enough for me (if a little cramped as there's not much room in there) but just think if the wheelchair user was solo and had to turn or stretch to reach the door handle and pull it shut. Second scenario, we push a button, the door slides open, we go in, push another button and the door slides shut and press a third and it locks. Think which is best for the wheelchair user!

 

As for the time for it to close, it's a matter of seconds, if you are really that desperate to go perhaps go a little earlier! ;)

 

I would agree with you about having "ordinary" loos on trains where there is no disabled space, from what I can gather when the Voyagers were designed someone misread the disability laws and thought they had to have a disabled loo in every coach that had a loo in it, note that the slightly later Pendos don't have the same, lesson learned although I've never been on an IET so can't comment on them?

 

I hope the above helps to see it from the disabled perspective, whilst I'm not disabled having a disabled wife has opened up just how poor facilities are for such people and allows me to try to see things from both angles. 

 

I apologies to the OP for going so far OT.

[corneliuslundie]

I think what this discussion has shown clearly is that there is no one "right" answer when catering for the disabled. While some cannot cope with buttons, others cannot cope with levers. Some cannot cope with stairs, others have difficulty with slopes. What is necessary lighting for some is dazzling for others.

And I fear that many people who have no "disability" find the toilet controls confusing.  Just like websites: absolutely clear to some and an impenetrable jungle to others.

But I have no solution to offer.

Jonathan

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

The buttons on all our doors are the mushroom type and are more suitable for disabled people than old style door handles seen on outer doors on old BR stock or the swivel handles on the toilets in those trains.

 

Just out of interest can someone enlighten me which disabled groups are campaigning for a return to the old style stuff as someone has claimed?

Sorry, on who’s doors?

 

Are the door buttons on the new stock outer doors mushroom buttons as well?  Obviously the old “T” handles were difficult sometimes for even the able bodied 😆

 

My wife finds the long lever handles on toilet doors easy to use as there is no friction/effort to turning them.

[Oldddudders]

15 hours ago, rab said:

Or the idea of doing away with locomotives altogether, and using a vacuum to pull trains over steep inclines, incorporating a material for the vacuum seals which certain rodents found attractive as a dietary supplement

Oddly, the idea might be more feasible with modern materials in place of leather and tallow. 

[Oldddudders]

6 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Indeed. Clive Sinclair would have sued.

Not to mention Citroën. They also have a C5.

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

What on Earth is an elderly gentleman with an enlarged prostate going to do when everything grinds to a halt one day and he is stuck on the train for hours? 

Before risking that, get a TURP. Transurethral Radical Prostatectomy. Makes life so much easier. 

[boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

Indeed. Clive Sinclair would have sued.

I expect Sony would have sued first 😉

[Hobby]

17 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Sorry, on who’s doors?

 

XC Voyagers and HSTs.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

What on Earth is an elderly gentleman with an enlarged prostate going to do when everything grinds to a halt one day and he is stuck on the train for hours? 

He's going to say something very rude.

 

 

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

He's going to say something very rude.

 

 

Its not even as if there is a gangway connection which can be used.

 

(You don't want to loiter in the ones on the 313s plying the south coast - particularly late on a Friday / Saturday evening....)

[Gwiwer]

Not wishing to labour a point but I am not confusing those who use within-limits mobility aids with others. There have been occasions (mercifully few) when we have been expected to assist a customer off a train whom someone else has put aboard but whose scooter is wider than our (industry standard, DDA-compliant) ramps. Goodness only knows how they got aboard.  
 

There are safety issues here. An oversized, overweight scooter can be a serious obstruction in the gangways / doorways because they don’t fit (or cannot manouevre into) the designated area. Passenger’s luggage likewise but it is easier to move a 30kg suitcase in a hurry than a 300+kg scooter with user. 
 

IETs are equipped with “standard” toilet cubicles throughout and fully-accessible ones in the designated assisted-travel coach.   The same applied on the full-length HST sets which they replaced. 
 

And then there was the chap who arrived at the station off the street with a “friend” who turned out to be a photo-journalist connected with the Metro newspaper. He parked his mobility scooter over the floor sticker which marks the maximum permitted size; it was somewhat longer and wider. Our colleagues advised politely that because it was “out of gauge” (to use a railway term” that it, rather than he, could not be permitted to travel. 
 

He instantly waved the disability discrimination flag and hoped to have his case as a lead story. But as his “friend” pointed out there really was no story because he could travel by other means and his scooter was clearly outside the marked limits. 
 

That might be a single case but it would only take one such to hit the headlines and the entire industry could be saddled with making more very costly changes. 

[hexagon789]

5 hours ago, Hobby said:

from what I can gather when the Voyagers were designed someone misread the disability laws and thought they had to have a disabled loo in every coach that had a loo in it, note that the slightly later Pendos don't have the same, lesson learned although I've never been on an IET so can't comment on them?

It was because the then newly updated requirements stipulated an accessible toilet for each class of travel and the Voyagers were originally planned to have three classes.

 

80x series units just have one in each driving trailer.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

It was because the then newly updated requirements stipulated an accessible toilet for each class of travel and the Voyagers were originally planned to have three classes.

 

In the end they just went with the one - Cattle.

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

In the end they just went with the one - Cattle.

Not so. The first class is quite nice....

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Not so. The first class is quite nice....

Until you're on a train back from Warley and the train is so full the second class crowds into first and stays like that till Stafford.

 

But I won't have that problem now this year, I get a carriage to myself all the way, though I do have to purchase a drink and snack at Starbucks and the toilet is more than a few metres from my seat.

[Ken.W]

39 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

There are safety issues here. An oversized, overweight scooter can be a serious obstruction in the gangways / doorways because they don’t fit (or cannot manouevre into) the designated area. Passenger’s luggage likewise but it is easier to move a 30kg suitcase in a hurry than a 300+kg scooter with user. 
 

IETs are equipped with “standard” toilet cubicles throughout and fully-accessible ones in the designated assisted-travel coach.   The same applied on the full-length HST sets which they replaced. 
 

 

 

Or the incident on Tyne-Wear Metro when one of these went in from the platform on one side

...and straight out though the closed doors on the other side

 

No they don't, IETs have a micro-cupboard that a "stick insect" super-model would find a challenge  ;)

[Ken.W]

8 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I remember being on a 91/mk4 set about 15 years ago when somebody pulled the emergency stop lever trying to flush the toilet (allegedly by accident, I did hear their excuses as they were sat near me).

 

More common though on the Mk4s were people who "thought" that a red button labeled 'ALARM' flushed the toilet - treating everyone to the "disabled passenger alarm operated" announcement till the Guard managed to get through the train to the relevant toilet to reset. Usually several times per journey

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Ken.W said:

No they don't, IETs have a micro-cupboard that a "stick insect" super-model would find a challenge  ;)

So that would be like Voyagers and Pendolinos that offer similar facilities and rubbish when you've a big coat and a rucksack on