Helston Revisited

[Tankerman]

On 23/08/2024 at 13:40, Andy Keane said:

There are also photos of queues of agricultural carts at GWR stations during harvest times. I have never seen animals being driven in large numbers or queues of carts on exhibition layouts, but maybe someone has done this? I rather like the idea of some pigs being driven towards the cattle dock on my layout. 

It's a long time ago now, but if my memory is correct the cattle wagons stored in the sidings at Gwinear Road in the 1950's/60's were mainly used for the Spring Broccoli/flower traffic. I think they were taken to Marizion, among other locations. for loading.

[Andy Keane]

53 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

It's a long time ago now, but if my memory is correct the cattle wagons stored in the sidings at Gwinear Road in the 1950's/60's were mainly used for the Spring Broccoli/flower traffic. I think they were taken to Marizion, among other locations. for loading.

Yes, that's correct. I cannot find any information on the make up of the Monday pig trains though. I am assuming five or six cattle wagons each with 15 or so pigs, but would like to know more.

[Pete Haitch]

A few posts ago you raised the question about where the rolling stock for the Up Chippenham Pig may have come from; especially as it was an “as required” movement unlike the Up & Down Sheffield Rabbit which were scheduled, took a day each way and had dedicated siphons for Penzance/Helston.

 

Whilst we cannot be sure, where the wagons came from, I think it is likely that they were local wagons that were in regular use. On a Monday when the Up Chippenham Pig was not required, they could have formed part of the local pick-up goods which would be cancelled in favour of the ‘Pig’. My reason for thinking this is that post World War 2 Helston had a thriving Monday livestock market with plenty of pigs. This was probably represented a continuance of how things had been before the war, and significantly more pigs than required for local demand alone.  The easiest solution would be for a buyer from the West of England Bacon Co. / C&T Harris to buy them, have them walked up Gadolphin to the station and loaded on the pick-up goods for the ride up to Redruth

 

Redruth Bacon Factory 1924

 

 

Redruth Bacon Factory 1963 https://www.cornishmemory.com/item/BRA_27_036   

 

The Bacon Factory would have needed pigs from further afield than just Penwith and Kerrier, and as its main transport appears to be rail, could have kept some dedicated cattle trucks quite busy.  IIRC, the WTT for the Up Chippenham Pig shows time at Redruth for shunting. This presumably to either strengthen the train with more trucks of pigs from Redruth, or to leave some of the Helston pigs at the factory.

 

These wagons would have been returned by Tuesday lunchtime or before, and available for other duties possibly including livestock for the Redruth market and collecting pigs purchased for the factory at the Penzance Wednesday pig Market.

 

Redruth had the busiest pig market in the South West in the 1930s which took place on Wednesdays and a thriving general livestock market. These no doubt required some use of rail services again suggesting a reasonable supply of 'local' cattle trucks

Edited August 29 by Pete Haitch

[Andy Keane]

10 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

A few posts ago you raised the question about where the rolling stock for the Up Chippenham Pig may have come from; especially as it was an “as required” movement unlike the Up & Down Sheffield Rabbit which were scheduled, took a day each way and had dedicated siphons for Penzance/Helston.

 

Whilst we cannot be sure, where the wagons came from, I think it is likely that they were local wagons that were in regular use. On a Monday when the Up Chippenham Pig was not required, they could have formed part of the local pick-up goods which would be cancelled in favour of the ‘Pig’. My reason for thinking this is that post World War 2 Helston had a thriving Monday livestock market with plenty of pigs. This was probably represented a continuance of how things had been before the war, and significantly more pigs than required for local demand alone.  The easiest solution would be for a buyer from the West of England Bacon Co. / C&T Harris to buy them, have them walked up Gadolphin to the station and loaded on the pick-up goods for the ride up to Redruth

 

Redruth Bacon Factory 1924

 

 

Redruth Bacon Factory 1963 https://www.cornishmemory.com/item/BRA_27_036   

 

The Bacon Factory would have needed pigs from further afield than just Penwith and Kerrier, and as its main transport appears to be rail, could have kept some dedicated cattle trucks quite busy.  IIRC, the WTT for the Up Chippenham Pig shows time at Redruth for shunting. This presumably to either strengthen the train with more trucks of pigs from Redruth, or to leave some of the Helston pigs at the factory.

 

These wagons would have been returned by Tuesday lunchtime or before, and available for other duties possibly including livestock for the Redruth market and collecting pigs purchased for the factory at the Penzance Wednesday pig Market.

 

Redruth had the busiest pig market in the South West in the 1930s which took place on Wednesdays and a thriving general livestock market. These no doubt required some use of rail services again suggesting a reasonable supply of 'local' cattle trucks

Pete

 

Thanks for this - really useful background info. Are we happy that these would definitely have been in standard cattle wagons?

 

The interesting thing about the May 1911 timetable is that it clearly assumes the wagons were already at Helston and a lone engine and Toad is timetabled to go and collect them. The attached timetable shows this Monday's only movement arriving shortly before the pig train leaves:

So I assume earlier that day, or perhaps on the preceding Saturday, some extra empty cattle trucks were attached to a down goods working (if moved on the preceding Saturday I assume they would have been left in the goods platform ready for the pigs to be loaded on Monday morning). Also the lone engine / van and pig train movements replace a previous Up and later Down goods workings, so I further assume the pig train additionally moved non-pig wagons but am not sure on that.

 

By 1931, which is the next STT I have a copy of, the pig train is no longer mentioned (and also Sunday services have ceased). So perhaps the traffic still happened but no longer justified a special train - does this imply the 1911 pig trains were quite substantial so as to need dedicated regular workings?

 

If you have any thoughts on exactly what this timetable implies I would much appreciate them.

 

Andy

Edited August 30 by Andy Keane

[Pete Haitch]

I didn't finish my list of the types of livestock that may have used Helston, so another contribution.

 

Elephants I think these would come under the category that bird watchers would label as 'regular visitors'.
@rue_d_etropal did have some 3D elephant wagons on Shapeways when it was operating and would certainly provide a bit of  variation to the rolling stock. Then of course there was the Hornby giraffe car and. later, circus train.

 

Picture of elephants wandering streets of Penzance here: https://i2-prod.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/article2131060.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_elephants.jpg

[Andy Keane]

2 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

I didn't finish my list of the types of livestock that may have used Helston, so another contribution.

 

Elephants I think these would come under the category that bird watchers would label as 'regular visitors'.
@rue_d_etropal did have some 3D elephant wagons on Shapeways when it was operating and would certainly provide a bit of  variation to the rolling stock. Then of course there was the Hornby giraffe car and. later, circus train.

 

Picture of elephants wandering streets of Penzance here: https://i2-prod.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/article2131060.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_elephants.jpg

Wow - completely bonkers but fun! What code were elephant and giraffe wagons?

[Pete Haitch]

2 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Wow - completely bonkers but fun! What code were elephant and giraffe wagons?

 

I believe that one of the admins has a large collection of giraffe wagons (apologies if wrong) so how about using the code 'Phil'. I don't know if the Barnum wagons had a code or were just run as a special train - I'm sure there are others here who will know. Bigger than a 'Monster', was 'Jumbo' ever used? 

[Andy Keane]

14 minutes ago, Pete Haitch said:

 

I believe that one of the admins has a large collection of giraffe wagons (apologies if wrong) so how about using the code 'Phil'. I don't know if the Barnum wagons had a code or were just run as a special train - I'm sure there are others here who will know. Bigger than a 'Monster', was 'Jumbo' ever used? 

There is this lovely photo: https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/518/going-loco-july-2022

It seems some Monsters were specially strengthened for elephants!

Andy

[Pete Haitch]

8 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

There is this lovely photo: https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/518/going-loco-july-2022

It seems some Monsters were specially strengthened for elephants!

Andy

I hope the end loading dock on the back siding is built well! 

 See "Bertram Mills circus elephants at Exeter St David's in the 1930s" in above newsletter. https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/shopimages/gl_220722_2_elephants-exeter.jpg

[Pete Haitch]

11 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

If you have any thoughts on exactly what this timetable implies I would much appreciate them.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

I think there is a simple one word answer: 'Totnes'.

 

My C&T Harris office guy, who had worked at both Totnes and Calne, shuffled off to play with the big abacus in the sky some years ago.  Therefore I can't check any of the following and am not going to do the necessary research myself. There is a recentish book on the history of the company which I've not seen but may be of interest to some:- C&T Harris (Calne) - Amberley Publishing (amberley-books.com).

 

Two of the motivations for C&T Harris to buy bacon factories in Cornwall and Devon were: 1, ensuring supply of product to their customers; and 2, ensuring supply of pigs into HQ at Calne. A method of meeting 1, was the success of 2.  Even if 2 resulted in Cornish workers being laid off for a day due to pigs going to Calne, the senior management would not meet them as they left work. 

 

The role of Totnes seems to have become increasingly important in the 1920's and was probably able to fill orders if a lack of product coming out of Calne.  If the information was available, a list of set flows in and out of Totnes and their composition - Mex, Micas, Siphons etc, would probably answer some of the questions.  As to what may have replaced the Chippenham  Pig - I would be looking for a pig or meat flow from the Redruth factory into Totnes but wonder if there were some stopping goods they could hang a few wagons on as required rather than a dedicated working.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing your layout with pigs being walked into the station yard and elephants shackled on the horse landing.

 

I may yet use these pics on an hoarding or even the basis for fictional PO wagon

Cornish Meath & Provision Co, Redruth, 1939 · cornishmemory.com

View of Cornish Meat and Provision Company, Redruth · cornishmemory.com

 

Pete.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30 by Pete Haitch

[Andy Keane]

I do have a Monster so maybe some elephants on the end loading platform would be a conversation starter. How would they react to a group of pigs being walked past I wonder. 

[Pete Haitch]

With disdain I suspect.  Elephants would wisely (but sadly) be shackled. If an innate response was triggered, then I suspect that it would be that which they would show towards warthogs in the wild which IIRC would be to ignore them as long as they didn't become too annoying.  At 16 I had the opportunity to run away to the zoo to become an apprentice elephant keeper - part of me has always regretted that I didn't.

[Pete Haitch]

I seem to have hijacked this thread so will limit myself to a couple more posts and then give it a rest. I really like how the things you are doing to your layout at this stage are not only giving a really strong sense of time and place, but also purpose.

 

I've finished the list of livestock for my model so also post it here to round off the ones previously published.

 

In my faded and jaded memory, I don’t recall many sheep in the southern part of Kerrier, but more in those northern parts that used to be part of Penwith. Looking at pictures of Helston market and elsewhere, sheep barely appear. Spring born lambs would have competed with cows producing milk for cream, butter etc; and also early crops.  The autumn born lambs mentioned below could have fitted in with the cropping pattern and assisted with soil fertility provided the adult sheep had otherwise unproductive land to graze in summer.

 

Non-the-less, those sheep that there were would have been shorn and something would have happened to the wool.  Liskeard once had a moderately good wool trade but this was largely seen-off by the industrial revolution. Cornwall didn’t have rivers with the flow and force to power mills in the way the Pennine and Peak District ones could. A rump of hand spinning and knitting staggered on and has today become part of a lively craft scene.

 

I suspect that one day in the year a few empty trucks were shunted into the yard at Helston and those farmers involved would turn up with horse drawn waggons loaded with woolsacks to be transferred, sheeted, roped and despatched. Fleeces from the longwool breeds were popular with serge makers and therefore contributed to the boys (no girls then) in blue, and Khaki, being well turned out. Woolsacks were different and considerably larger than those used for coal etc.

 

So along with the Sheffield Rabbit, Chippenham Pig and Elephant Special; may I suggest… the Spring Serge. Add these to all the other seasonal and special workings found at Helston and your signal log is going to be an interesting read!

 

Sheep 

Cornish Longwool Like the black cattle and black pig, the various west country longwool sheep have mostly become so interbred over the last hundred years that they are now largely recognised as a single breed – the Devon and Cornwall Longwool. I intend to used models from Scale 3D and Langley for these.

 

Greyface Dartmoor I’m going to take the modelling equivalent to dagging shears to the above models and also use them to represent this breed.

 

Devon Closewool These are a naturally polled breed (they don’t grow horns). I was thinking about trying a sheep flocking kit on some Nock 15749 sheep to represent these.

 

Dorset Horn I suspect that your visits to Melplash were a little after my era, but you will almost certainly have come across some Dorset Horns including some shown by distant cousins of mine.  Casting my mind back many decades, there was a story that there had been a flock of Dorset Horn sheep kept somewhere in the west of the Duchy, producing autumn born lambs that would grow-on well due to the mild climate and be finished in time to meet the Easter demand for fresh lamb from the posh hotels in London and Paris. It is possible that these were not pure Dorset Horn but cross-bred ewes that had been produced by putting a Dorset tup to local breeds, and which therefore carried the genes to lamb out of season.  I haven’t been able to find any photographic evidence from that period as the relevant pictures I have seen could as equally be an Exmoor Horn as a Dorset Horn. A Portland ram would have done the same job but I can’t imagine there would have been more than a handful in existence, and in 4mm scale one is not going to tell the difference anyway. If I go for a late autumn setting for my layout, then I will have a lineside field with ewes and lambs being folded across a catch-crop of turnips.

 

Cross Breeds In all the above breeds, females not suitable for breeding replacements, or related to the main breed tup, may have been put to a ram from a breed known to give meatier lambs. This will be my excuse to include models I like including ones of a ‘down’ type, Roman nosed, blue faced etc.

 

Pete

 

[Andy Keane]

Pete, your notes on livestock are really great. One thing I am interested is suitable sources of 4mm animals. Also how robust they are. The cows I have used are quite nice for Guernsey and Jersey types but are fragile. I do not trust their legs so have pinned them down with piano wire. I am currently searching for pig suppliers though and again think 3D prints may be the way to go. What about these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186604063111 . It’s his cows I used.

Andy

 

Edited August 31 by Andy Keane

[Pete Haitch]

Hi, I've bought some of his animals and found them very fragile.   I don't know how the postage would compare, but today's 'sale' price on his web site is a quid cheaper than Ebay.
MMA026 Pig Sty and Pigs OO Scale – Scale 3D

 

Because of the fragility, for pigs I'm buying some old Merit ones and will probably use some Fimo or Rizla paper and super glue to create nice lop ears - yes I know its sad.

[Andy Keane]

What about the model scene pigs: https://www.osbornsmodels.com/5108-modelscene-oo-animals--pigs--trough-1745-p.asp

They don’t seem to show any shape variety in the six you get but maybe a more robust starting point? The Scale3D animals have a nice range of shapes and poses, including mirror images.

Edited September 1 by Andy Keane

[St Enodoc]

22 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

What about the model scene pigs: https://www.osbornsmodels.com/5108-modelscene-oo-animals--pigs--trough-1745-p.asp

They don’t seem to show any shape variety in the six you get but maybe a more robust starting point? The Scale3D animals have a nice range of shapes and poses, including mirror images.

I think the Modelscene pigs (and other Modelscene items) are the same as the old Merit ones.

[Pete Haitch]

46 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

What about the model scene pigs: https://www.osbornsmodels.com/5108-modelscene-oo-animals--pigs--trough-1745-p.asp

They don’t seem to show any shape variety in the six you get but maybe a more robust starting point? The Scale3D animals have a nice range of shapes and poses, including mirror images.

I really like the 3D ones but, if a South Devon cow and calf in a small plastic bag in a box packed out with tissue paper, are going to arrive damaged just from being shaken about during transit (and don't ask about rabbit ears) how well will they survive on a modular layout that will be subject to movement and fiddling with scenery?  Whilst I would like some of their longwool sheep. I'm toying with the idea of carefully wrapping around the outside of the legs and filling the gap between them with clear casting resin.  Sadly I think this would be too obvious with cattle, but may try it, or something similar, with pigs. To protect, and on some modify, the ears I may add a layer of Rizla paper and superglue - something on my list to try as a means of strengthening (& repair!) cattle legs, horns, ears etc. Alternately, I might just have to be pragmatic about my age and live with a compromise - after all the track is narrower than 18.83mm or whatever. 

 

I think the Modelscene pigs may be a re-run of the Merit ones - they look like it anyway. I will cut and shut, add and shave etc the Merit ones. 

Edited September 1 by Pete Haitch
I see St Enodoc already replied re Modelscene

[Pete Haitch]

A few posts ago you questioned whether or not the general environs of Helston Station on your model were too kempt.   My immediate thought was that it probably depended on the time of year, and if it was May then everything would probably be all rail-shape and Swindon fashion. No sun faded and salt blasted South and West facades here whilst the North and East sides retained their colour.

 

Each year on the 7th and 8th of May Helston has visiting hordes of dignitaries, the good and the true, and plenty of vagabonds and rogues (Unless a Sunday was involved which would lead to a slight change in dates – it was a country where methodism held sway; Weslyans, Bible Methodists, Primitive Methodists, Reformed Methodists, plain ordinary Methodists, and probably other types as well).

 

I’m using 1907 as an example, as I have the poster picture to hand. It shows on that year the dignitaries included: The Lord Mayor of London (with a Cornish sounding name) accompanied by the Sheriffs of the City of London, and the High Sheriff of Cornwall.  Pretty much as good as it got short of the Monarch or the Duke. I don’t know what the shareholding arrangements of the GWR were, or its relationship with The City was at that time, but I suspect the GWR pulled out all the stops for the Lord Mayor and his retinue. I’m guessing they travelled from Paddington by train. Would the GWR have added an extra saloon / 1st class coach and a baggage car to the rear of the train? This would have provided for the shortest route to the train at Paddington, and easy removal from the rear at Penzance for a quick whizz around to Helston. Rather like the late Queen commenting that the places she visited always smelt of fresh paint; I suspect the GWR ensured Helston in May was smart. 

 

On the 8th May special trains were run for the hoi polloi and (perhaps later than your period) could include six bogie coaches. If the local regiment were parading, there may have been a special for them, possibly the day before if they were making camp – it could possibly have included a horsebox if the Field Officer merited a mount.

Anyway, lots of scope for extra traffic/movements including ale for The Angel. 

 

After the 8th May I suspect plant growth and general tidiness returned to normal GWR branchline chic. No more posts on your thread for while!

Edited September 2 by Pete Haitch
Picture didn't load

[Andy Keane]

On 02/09/2024 at 21:28, Pete Haitch said:

A few posts ago you questioned whether or not the general environs of Helston Station on your model were too kempt.   My immediate thought was that it probably depended on the time of year, and if it was May then everything would probably be all rail-shape and Swindon fashion. No sun faded and salt blasted South and West facades here whilst the North and East sides retained their colour.

 

Each year on the 7th and 8th of May Helston has visiting hordes of dignitaries, the good and the true, and plenty of vagabonds and rogues (Unless a Sunday was involved which would lead to a slight change in dates – it was a country where methodism held sway; Weslyans, Bible Methodists, Primitive Methodists, Reformed Methodists, plain ordinary Methodists, and probably other types as well).

 

I’m using 1907 as an example, as I have the poster picture to hand. It shows on that year the dignitaries included: The Lord Mayor of London (with a Cornish sounding name) accompanied by the Sheriffs of the City of London, and the High Sheriff of Cornwall.  Pretty much as good as it got short of the Monarch or the Duke. I don’t know what the shareholding arrangements of the GWR were, or its relationship with The City was at that time, but I suspect the GWR pulled out all the stops for the Lord Mayor and his retinue. I’m guessing they travelled from Paddington by train. Would the GWR have added an extra saloon / 1st class coach and a baggage car to the rear of the train? This would have provided for the shortest route to the train at Paddington, and easy removal from the rear at Penzance for a quick whizz around to Helston. Rather like the late Queen commenting that the places she visited always smelt of fresh paint; I suspect the GWR ensured Helston in May was smart. 

 

On the 8th May special trains were run for the hoi polloi and (perhaps later than your period) could include six bogie coaches. If the local regiment were parading, there may have been a special for them, possibly the day before if they were making camp – it could possibly have included a horsebox if the Field Officer merited a mount.

Anyway, lots of scope for extra traffic/movements including ale for The Angel. 

 

After the 8th May I suspect plant growth and general tidiness returned to normal GWR branchline chic. No more posts on your thread for while!

 

Pete

Thanks for this post and the attached image of the poster. It matches nicely with this one that gives the public timetable for the Flora Day of 1905 which I guess would have been similar. These times seem to be for the normal connecting services for the branch but the fact that excursion tickets were being marketed like this rather suggest lots more people on the move, so requiring extra carriages to strengthen the normal branch trains.

This is no doubt for the hoi polloi; I had not thought about extra services for the dignitaries. As to exactly what the make-up would have been for any of the branch trains I guess rule one would allow most thing, though probably not 4-6-0 express loco at the front given the route restrictions - maybe a double-header instead on some strengthened services. They certainly used pairs of tanks on the St. Ives branch for heavy trains so why not Helston on Flora Day (the maximum working loads for goods traffic being similar on both branches)? I also notice the mention of a pigeon show - perhaps birds in extra Siphons as well as more cattle wagons?

Andy

ps I have now found a photo showing a pair of 45xx double heading a train in the Helston platform, one a flat top tank and the other with the bigger sloping top tanks.

Edited September 6 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On the topic of clutter I have been putting a few bits and bobs on the goods platform. But most of the photo's I have seen of these places in the thirties showed them being pretty tidy. So this is where I am so far. I have ordered up some pigs and will pop a small group in the pens but otherwise I am not sure I should add much further. all thoughts most welcome.

Andy

 

[Neal Ball]

Sometimes, less is more 😎

[Harlequin]

My feeling is that there wasn't much clutter left permanently lying around at GWR stations in the '30s. The people at Pendon seem to have the same idea - Pendon Parva station is very clean and tidy (although one of the volunteers there thought there should be more clutter).

 

Your Helston looks similarly clean as it is. I think the lack of clutter troubles the modern mind because we're used to seeing more decay and rubbish everywhere!

 

Of course on special days, and particular times, like market day or Flora day, there would be more stuff temporarily awaiting handling.

 

Edited September 3 by Harlequin

[Andy Keane]

18 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

My feeling is that there wasn't much clutter left permanently lying around at GWR stations in the '30s. The people at Pendon seem to have the same idea - Pendon Parva station is very clean and tidy (although one of the volunteers there thought there should be more clutter).

 

Your Helston looks similarly clean as it is. I think the lack of clutter troubles the modern mind because we're used to seeing more decay and rubbish everywhere!

 

Of course on special days, and particular times, like market day or Flora day, there would be more stuff temporarily awaiting handling.

 

Yes I think that's right. So I will add the pigs, a hand cart and some kind of delivery vehicle picking up /dropping stuff with a couple of chaps (flatbed lorry or horse and cart) and leave it at that. I know in the fifties there were loads of junk on the goods platform, which as you say is what we tend to expect nowadays.

[BWsTrains]

41 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

My feeling is that there wasn't much clutter left permanently lying around at GWR stations in the '30s.

 

from the various photos I have of Kingsbridge in the 30s and that was a busy terminus, it was maintained in very good order indeed.